The Torah is not abrogated

[Heber Book List]

Uh uh uh, out of context.
You need to do your homework.

1 Corinthians 9:19-23;

19 Though I am free of obligation to anyone, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the Law I became like one under the Law (though I myself am not under the Law), to win those under the Law.…21 To those without the Law I became like one without the Law (though I am not outside the law of God but am under the law of Christ), to win those without the Law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men, so that by all possible means I might save some of them.…23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, so that I may share in its blessings.…

Uh uh uh, out of context.

Paul was speaking about the difference between those under the Law, and those under the legalism of the Law. He was under the Law all the time, as he says quite clearly, but he did not agree with those who worked under the legalistic man made values of the Law that were simply a shackle on the lives of the people.

Read and understand the end of Romans Ch. 3 and 7 and Acts 24:13-16

 

[GodsGrace101]

First Fruits of Zion considers it a written halacha for gentile believers in the late first century.

Is a halacha a set of rules to be followed?

 

[GodsGrace101]

I totally agree, it is a eye opening document that helps one live the faith. Read from a MJ perspective it takes on a different light, IMO.

It would be interesting to know how a MJ sees it in a different light.

To me it's a set of rules to live by.
If Christians would just read this all the debate about works would stop! (then what would we debate??!!)
I can't think of it in any other way...

 

[tampasteve]

Is a halacha a set of rules to be followed?

More or less, it is a generally agreed upon "legal" rendering supplementing scripture on how to live and worship.

 

[tampasteve]

It would be interesting to know how a MJ sees it in a different light.

To me it's a set of rules to live by.
If Christians would just read this all the debate about works would stop! (then what would we debate??!!)
I can't think of it in any other way...

Taken in historic context several "rules" were dropped along the way. One major example is the Acts 15 20 and 29: "that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood" would lead us to believe that it is best to eat Kosher meats as they are the only logical way to avoid eating meat containing blood. There is also historic evidence that the early non-Jewish believers were eating Kosher meats along with their Jewish brothers.

Ironically the Didache would help many/most believers follow a more uniform path, but there would still be disagreements on how parts are interpreted or should be enacted, such as eating Kosher, the eucharist, etc.

**NOTE** the MJ community is not of one thought on most matters, so there will be people that do not agree with my exposition above, that is OK.

 

[Dave-W]

Uh uh uh, out of context.
You need to do your homework.

Wrong. Paul was a Jew and kept the Law.
As your passage from 1 Cor also agrees.

 

[Dave-W]

Is a halacha a set of rules to be followed?

Halacha literally means "walk."

The rabbis came up sets of rules (the oral tradition) that were originally supposed to be easy to remember and help people to walk in obedience. This was called their "walk," or halacha. James uses it in his discussion with Paul in Acts 21.24b:

... you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Taken in historic context several "rules" were dropped along the way. One major example is the Acts 15 20 and 29: "that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood" would lead us to believe that it is best to eat Kosher meats as they are the only logical way to avoid eating meat containing blood. There is also historic evidence that the early non-Jewish believers were eating Kosher meats along with their Jewish brothers.

Ironically the Didache would help many/most believers follow a more uniform path, but there would still be disagreements on how parts are interpreted or should be enacted, such as eating Kosher, the eucharist, etc.

**NOTE** the MJ community is not of one thought on most matters, so there will be people that do not agree with my exposition above, that is OK.

Also, Kosher meat is not sacrificed to idols.

Thanks for the info!

 

[GodsGrace101]

Halacha literally means "walk."

The rabbis came up sets of rules (the oral tradition) that were originally supposed to be easy to remember and help people to walk in obedience. This was called their "walk," or halacha. James uses it in his discussion with Paul in Acts 21.24b:

... you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

We also speak about our "walk" with the Lord.
To me walking with Him means keeping His commandments (as best we could - some think "keep" means we never sin)
so that would be in line with how the Jews understood Halacha --of course!

I've often said that the bible was written by Jews to Jews and we have changed many meanings since about the 1800,s.
Different thread...

 

[AbbaLove]

Paul was speaking about the difference between those under the Law, and those under the legalism of the Law.

He was under the Law all the time, as he says quite clearly, but he did not agree with those who worked under the legalistic man made values of the Law that was simply a shackle on the lives of the people.

Read and understand the end of Romans Ch. 3 and 7 and Acts 24:13-16

Good Teaching​

​

​

 

[AbbaLove]

I've often said that the bible was written by Jews to Jews and we have changed many meanings since about the 1800,s.
Different thread...

Acts 15:7-11
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
​

Peter's reference to yoke is the legalism that Heber Book List mentions (#43). Peter's reference to disciples in verse 10 is apparently debatable. Is Peter referring to the non-Jewish Greek Believers in Messiah Yeshua that are being discipled by Paul and Barnabas OR to Jewish disciples like Barnabas?

If Peter is referring to the Jewish disciples then Peter is saying that the Messianic Jewish disciples need not follow/obey the man-made legalism of Judaism that became a yoke that their fathers were not able to bear.

 

[DaveDavids]

people seemed to have overlooked one tittle though

 

[OSAS 101]

Wrong. Paul was a Jew and kept the Law.
As your passage from 1 Cor also agrees.

I just realized I can't comment.
I come from a Baptist background and I am of Irish descent.
That makes me a different race and a different religion.
Sorry.

 

[tampasteve]

I just realized I can't comment.
I come from a Baptist background and I am of Irish descent.
That makes me a different race and a different religion.
Sorry.

Same religion, different way to view it though. MJ is an extension of Judaism, which is of course where Christianity came from. But we all agree that Jesus/Yeshua was the Jewish Messiah and son of God, redeemer of the world. But MJ on this forum still believe in the Nicene Creed and other "Christian" statements and beliefs.

As for race, Jewish people come in all sorts of races, it is more of a tribe than a race.

 

[DaveDavids]

OP, I'm curious if you were aware of the tittle that seems to have been overlooked

You said

"For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18 In other words, until Messiah has passed judgment on the living and the dead, not even a single brushstroke has been abrogated "

The following words in Greek manuscripts all use the tittle

God, Lord, Jesus, Christ, Son, Spirit, David, Cross, Mother, Father, Israel, Savior, Man, Jerusalem, and Heaven

Nomina Sacra ( sacred names )

...however, there is one word in the NT scriptures which has not been included in this list

It's a word in scripture that many people are intrigued with, yet the fact it has a tittle seems to have been " erased " from the exegesis of the Bible

 

[AbbaLove]

Same religion, different way to view it though. MJ is an extension of Judaism, which is of course where Christianity came from.But we all agree that Jesus/Yeshua was the Jewish Messiah and son of God, redeemer of the world.

But MJ on this forum still believe in the Nicene Creed and other "Christian" statements and beliefs.

As for race, Jewish people come in all sorts of races, it is more of a tribe than a race.

Thank you for helping to provide insight to those that aren't a member of this Messianic Judaism forum. Appreciate your willingness to act as a sort of spokesperson (posts 34, 35, 40, 42, 46, 47, 56) for further clarification in this MJ forum thread. It helps to get views from other Christians like you and GodsGrace101 who realize that Christianity owes its very existence to Judaism.

Hopefully, you can clarify DaveDavids Rationalist post.

 

[tampasteve]

OP, I'm curious if you were aware of the tittle that seems to have been overlooked

You said

"For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18 In other words, until Messiah has passed judgment on the living and the dead, not even a single brushstroke has been abrogated "

The following words in Greek manuscripts all use the tittle

God, Lord, Jesus, Christ, Son, Spirit, David, Cross, Mother, Father, Israel, Savior, Man, Jerusalem, and Heaven

Nomina Sacra ( sacred names )

...however, there is one word in the NT scriptures which has not been included in this list

It's a word in scripture that many people are intrigued with, yet the fact it has a tittle seems to have been " erased " from the exegesis of the Bible

Hey David, thanks for joining in, if you could read the SOP and post HERE that would be great. It is the correct way to join in the conversation for non-faith group posting in this forum. It helps us all stay on the same page and in a non-debate type conversation.

 

[DaveDavids]

OK Steve, thank you, It's done

 

[GodsGrace101]

​

Acts 15:7-11
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.​

Peter's reference to yoke is the legalism that Heber Book List mentions (#43). Peter's reference to disciples in verse 10 is apparently debatable. Is Peter referring to the non-Jewish Greek Believers in Messiah Yeshua that are being discipled by Paul and Barnabas OR to Jewish disciples like Barnabas?

If Peter is referring to the Jewish disciples then Peter is saying that the Messianic Jewish disciples need not follow/obey the man-made legalism of Judaism that became a yoke that their fathers were not able to bear.

Acts 15:7-11
Paul and Barnabas had returned from a missionary journey and were with the other apostles and converted Jews.

In verse 10 a meeting was called to decide if the new Gentile converts were to follow the laws of the O.T. and be circumciesd so as to belong to the covenant of Abraham.

Then Peter gave his speech. He was speaking to the apostles, Jews, and to the leaders, I would have to assume mostly Jews but some gentile might have been there too.

Peter says that God gave the Holy Spirit to the gentiles just as He gave it to the Jews. He says that God cannot be fooled but knows a persons thoughts (heart). God worked in the lives of the gentiles just as He worked in the lives of the Jews (to make their lives holy).

Then James goes on to say that outsiders are also welcome.

I believe verse 10 is referring to non-Jewish Greek believers.
Peter is saying that living Under The Law is a yoke that is not to be put on the new converts -- Gentiles.

The scripture also says that God knows the heart. My feeling is that if God tells someone to do something, then that is what they must do. What is sin to one, may not be sin to another. We must follow our conscience and encourage each other.

I believe Paul explains this in
Romans 14:22-23
22The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

Paul is saying that we each have a different relationship with God. Whatever that relationship is, will be specific to us and cannot be imposed on anyone else (as long as it doesn't break a commandment). We are to live the way God wants us to live, according to what we believe.

 

[pinacled]

[Staff action].

Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.
(Christ has fulfilled the Law and so can we).

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.....

You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Nevertheless Timothy was circumcised in order to unify the Church under Christ Jesus as an act of Love for our Lord.

The Royal Torah is Liberty and freedom.
And Yeshua was blamless.

Love?
Hgh..we will see in 120 days.
Those who haven't been given a garment will fade be escorted elsewhere.

For those who have been given clarity in the Spirit of Understanding.
Do not look back.