The Torah is not abrogated

[Open Heart]

I am a Messianic Jew.

That means I do not believe the Torah is abrogated, and I live by its laws to the degree that I can. This includes:

1. The moral laws
2. The ceremonial laws
3. The purity laws
4. The calendar laws
5. The command for a tabernacle, including the permanent place of worship (temple)
6. Any other part of the Torah that I have forgotten to list

In other words, the ENTIRE Torah. "For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18 In other words, until Messiah has passed judgment on the living and the dead, not even a single brushstroke has been abrogated.

Without naming any names, I have to say that lately I've been feeling sort of alone in this.

If you believe in the WHOLE Torah, give me a holler.

 

[Anguspure]

I am a Messianic Jew.

That means I do not believe the Torah is abrogated, and I live by its laws to the degree that I can. This includes:

1. The moral laws
2. The ceremonial laws
3. The purity laws
4. The calendar laws
5. The command for a tabernacle, including the permanent place of worship (temple)
6. Any other part of the Torah that I have forgotten to list

In other words, the ENTIRE Torah. "For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18 In other words, until Messiah has passed judgment on the living and the dead, not even a single brushstroke has been abrogated.

Without naming any names, I have to say that lately I've been feeling sort of alone in this.

If you believe in the WHOLE Torah, give me a holler.

In so far as following the Torah as matter of good practice in life, and in so far as the Torah is about Christ Jesus, I agree with you. Christ fulfilled the Law in himself so certainly we can gain guidance as to how best to imitate Him with a good understanding of Torah.

I enjoy reading guidance on this sort of thing from Aish.com, and it is remarkable to me how often the guidance of Orthodox Jewish Rabbis brings enlightenment and points to our Lord, even as though this is not the intention of these guys, rather they aim to point us towards the Torah.

To follow the Torah as a matter of Law, however puts our salvation at risk.

 

[Heber Book List]

OH - you are not alone. It is against the rules on here to debate the revocation of Torah. This is why I dropped out of these arguments, having used some of the same arguments you have used.

The poster has been copied the relative rule, as below, but has chosen to ignore it. Quite honestly, I am amazed that the rule is not yet being enforced!

Non-negotiable points:

• No anti-missionary/counter-missionary posts or teachings against the New Covenant books or against Yeshua as Messiah**
• No replacement theology. No posts teaching or debating that the Church/Christians have replaced Israel or the Jewish people.
  
• No anti-Torah theology. i.e. No posts accusing or debating that Messianic Jews or Gentiles are under the law, re-erecting the wall of partition, Torah has been made invalid for today, or Messianic Jews or Gentiles should not keep the commandments in Torah that apply to them. It's not permitted to tell members to keep the Universal (Noachide) laws or not to keep Shabbat.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I am a Messianic Jew.

That means I do not believe the Torah is abrogated, and I live by its laws to the degree that I can. This includes:

1. The moral laws
2. The ceremonial laws
3. The purity laws
4. The calendar laws
5. The command for a tabernacle, including the permanent place of worship (temple)
6. Any other part of the Torah that I have forgotten to list

In other words, the ENTIRE Torah. "For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18 In other words, until Messiah has passed judgment on the living and the dead, not even a single brushstroke has been abrogated.

Without naming any names, I have to say that lately I've been feeling sort of alone in this.

If you believe in the WHOLE Torah, give me a holler.

How is one to keep the ceremonial laws if there is no longer any sacrifice needed?

How do we keep civil laws if we are not living in the Israel of 2,000 years ago?

IOW, I'm not saying you shouldn't live your conviction. God forbid! I do wonder though, HOW you could do this??

Just curious.

 

[Dave-W]

If you believe in the WHOLE Torah, give me a holler.

I'm hollerin' sister!

Amen!

 

[Dave-W]

<staff edit>
"Fulfilled" does not mean eliminated or dismissed.

 

[Dave-W]

How is one to keep the ceremonial laws if there is no longer any sacrifice needed?

How do we keep civil laws if we are not living in the Israel of 2,000 years ago?

IOW, I'm not saying you shouldn't live your conviction. God forbid! I do wonder though, HOW you could do this??

Just curious.

That has been a matter of debate for decades. What exactly does following the Torah look like in a New Covenant environment?

Here is the approach from a couple of the founders of the Modern Messianic movement:

Tikkun America® - [Book of Mitzvot]

 

[Dave-W]

It means completed.

<staff edit>

By One Man.

That does not eliminate the need of others to walk in obedience.

Acts 21:24
take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

 

[GodsGrace101]

That has been a matter of debate for decades. What exactly does following the Torah look like in a New Covenant environment?

Here is the approach from a couple of the founders of the Modern Messianic movement:

Tikkun America® - [Book of Mitzvot]

Looks like a lot to read!
should I read the N.C. application?
Guess so.

 

[Dave-W]

Looks like a lot to read!
should I read the N.C. application?
Guess so.

Yes. That is the true guts of the effort. What does following Torah look like in the New Covenant.

But be aware of the fact that we believe the Torah was given ONLY to Israel and those who willingly attach themselves to Israel. To what degree that all is applicable to Gentile Christians is still a topic in flux.

The direction Rabbis Juster and Rudolph take is that many of the commands are universal moral precepts and binding on all, while others can be followed on a voluntary basis by gentiles. Tikkun as an organization recognizes some Gentiles have a "Ruth calling;" [your people are my people and your God my God] and both rabbis confirmed I and my wife are walking in that call.

 

[1 John 4:1]

I am a Messianic Jew.

That means I do not believe the Torah is abrogated, and I live by its laws to the degree that I can. This includes:

1. The moral laws
2. The ceremonial laws
3. The purity laws
4. The calendar laws
5. The command for a tabernacle, including the permanent place of worship (temple)
6. Any other part of the Torah that I have forgotten to list

In other words, the ENTIRE Torah. "For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18 In other words, until Messiah has passed judgment on the living and the dead, not even a single brushstroke has been abrogated.

Without naming any names, I have to say that lately I've been feeling sort of alone in this.

If you believe in the WHOLE Torah, give me a holler.

holler!

 

[GodsGrace101]

That has been a matter of debate for decades. What exactly does following the Torah look like in a New Covenant environment?

Here is the approach from a couple of the founders of the Modern Messianic movement:

Tikkun America® - [Book of Mitzvot]

I looked...but it doesn't say what the command actually is.
I'll look through it more later on.

P.S.

Yes. There's more under the other headings...

 

[visionary]

I am glad OH opened up this thread, for those of us who need to step forward in unity with His Word. It is exposing those who oppose His Word. It is even better because we who observe can unite.

 

[Hank77]

James says that many of the Jewish believers were zealous for the Law. Paul's teachings were rumored to be against them, endangering the early Jewish church.

I see Paul's explanation for his actions in his own words.

1 Corinthians 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

1 Corinthians 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: 33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

 

[Kaon]

I am a Messianic Jew.

That means I do not believe the Torah is abrogated, and I live by its laws to the degree that I can. This includes:

1. The moral laws
2. The ceremonial laws
3. The purity laws
4. The calendar laws
5. The command for a tabernacle, including the permanent place of worship (temple)
6. Any other part of the Torah that I have forgotten to list

In other words, the ENTIRE Torah. "For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18 In other words, until Messiah has passed judgment on the living and the dead, not even a single brushstroke has been abrogated.

Without naming any names, I have to say that lately I've been feeling sort of alone in this.

If you believe in the WHOLE Torah, give me a holler.

I [try to] follow whatever the Word of God said. That includes... what He said in the past and the future.

 

[Hank77]

nm

 

[Anguspure]

By One Man.

That does not eliminate the need of others to walk in obedience.

In Christ it is important to consider that this "need" is not a need from obligation, rather it is something that we do because we Love to please our Lover and the Torah points us towards things that please Him, and remembering that the whole of the Torah is summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbour as yourself".

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

In Christ it is important to consider that this "need" is not a need from obligation, rather it is something that we do because we Love to please our Lover and the Torah points us towards things that please Him, and remembering that the whole of the Torah is summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbour as yourself".

One famous account in the Talmud (Shabbat 31a) tells about a gentile who wanted to convert to Judaism. This individual stated that he would accept Judaism only if a rabbi would teach him the entire Torah while he, the prospective convert, stood on one foot. First he went to Shammai, who, insulted by this ridiculous request, threw him out of the house. The man did not give up and went to Hillel. Hillel accepted the challenge, and said: "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation of this—go and study it!"

 

[Anguspure]

[Staff action].

Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.
(Christ has fulfilled the Law and so can we).

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.....

You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Nevertheless Timothy was circumcised in order to unify the Church under Christ Jesus as an act of Love for our Lord.

 

[Open Heart]

OH - you are not alone. It is against the rules on here to debate the revocation of Torah. This is why I dropped out of these arguments, having used some of the same arguments you have used.

The poster has been copied the relative rule, as below, but has chosen to ignore it. Quite honestly, I am amazed that the rule is not yet being enforced!

Non-negotiable points:

• No anti-missionary/counter-missionary posts or teachings against the New Covenant books or against Yeshua as Messiah**
• No replacement theology. No posts teaching or debating that the Church/Christians have replaced Israel or the Jewish people.
  
• No anti-Torah theology. i.e. No posts accusing or debating that Messianic Jews or Gentiles are under the law, re-erecting the wall of partition, Torah has been made invalid for today, or Messianic Jews or Gentiles should not keep the commandments in Torah that apply to them. It's not permitted to tell members to keep the Universal (Noachide) laws or not to keep Shabbat.

Yes I saw you post this. Thank you, thank you for your support of the forum, and for replying here to support me in my observance.