The tongue.

[Si_monfaith]

It all comes under the principle of sowing and reaping. We reap what we sow. But the type of prosperity teaching that we find where if people give their money to a ministry on request with the promise of financial wealth and material prosperity, is foreign to the New Testament. Nowhere in the New Testament are we promised guaranteed material and financial prosperity. And certainly not receiving offerings from ordinary people to build a great mansion and have a fleet of motor cars for oneself. That is sheer covetousness and misappropriating the Lord's money for selfish undulgence.

George Mueller in the 19th Century received millions of pounds in his lifetime, and he kept nothing for himself. He either used it to finance his orphanages, or gave it away to people in need. Oral Roberts when he died, owned a standard motor car and a small condominium. Smith Wigglesworth lived in an ordinary three bedroom bungalow in Bradford in England. But these men prospered spiritually in the Lord with the Lord blessing their ministries and bringing thousands to Christ through their work. This is what John meant when he said that believers should prosper as their soul prospers. The prosperity that is supported in the New Testament is where a believer has all his or her needs met, and is never forsaken by the Lord, and his children don't have to go out begging for their next meal.

I will bet your bottom dollar that if Jesus through the Holy Spirit told these wealthy and asset-rich prosperity preachers to sell all their possessions and come follow Him, they would make every excuse to avoid it, and find "proof" Scriptures to show that they don't have to do it.

Smith Wigglesworth lived in an ordinary three bedroom bungalow in Bradford

Do you know in some parts of India & Africa, a three bedroom bungalow is sheer covetousness (sc) & selfish indulgence (si)? So does someone reserve the right to define what sc & si are?

Was Abraham living in sc & si (Gen24:35: "The Lord has greatly blessed my master, and he has become wealthy; he has given him flocks and herds, silver and gold, male and female slaves, camels and donkeys)?

 

[Bobber]

Bobber said: "One should first KNOW in one's spirit from the Spirit of God that a certain ministry is worthy of support."

Does God support a person because "he" is worthy or because "Christ" lived a worthy life till His death?

Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.” (1 Timothy 5:17–18 ESV)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Do you know in some parts of India & Africa, a three bedroom bungalow is sheer covetousness (sc) & selfish indulgence (si)? So does someone reserve the right to define what sc & si are?

Was Abraham living in sc & si (Gen24:35: "The Lord has greatly blessed my master, and he has become wealthy; he has given him flocks and herds, silver and gold, male and female slaves, camels and donkeys)?

We are not talking about what happens in Africa. We are talking about what happens with that false prosperity doctrine preached by Kenneth Copeland and people like him who are in the ministry just for the money and not for the pure gospel of Jesus Christ. They are using the Christian ministry to feed their own covetousness.

You still have not provided any New Testament Scripture that supports the type of prosperity gospel that is preached by these men. Your difficulty is clearly because there are none.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Bobber said: "One should first KNOW in one's spirit from the Spirit of God that a certain ministry is worthy of support."



Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.” (1 Timothy 5:17–18 ESV)

Do the phrases, "worthy of double honor", "deserves his wages" exalt Christ whose death & resurrection earned double honor & wages for us?

Do believers sometimes display a tendency to exalt themselves (2Corinthians12:7: "Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me")?

 

[Si_monfaith]

We are not talking about what happens in Africa. We are talking about what happens with that false prosperity doctrine preached by Kenneth Copeland and people like him who are in the ministry just for the money and not for the pure gospel of Jesus Christ. They are using the Christian ministry to feed their own covetousness.

You still have not provided any New Testament Scripture that supports the type of prosperity gospel that is preached by these men. Your difficulty is clearly because there are none.

We are talking about what happens with that false prosperity doctrine preached by

Why not we talk ONLY about what Scriptures say?

You still have not provided any New Testament Scripture that supports the type of prosperity gospel that

Haven't I given a new testament Scripture which is 2 Corinthians 1:20 in support?

 

[Bobber]

Do the phrases, "worthy of double honor", "deserves his wages" exalt Christ whose death & resurrection earned double honor & wages for us?

Well you like to put everything in question form but isn't that something you need to ask God???

Isn't he the one through the Apostle Paul who stated some are worthy of double honor due to their actions???

Wasn't it HE which made the point in regard to the ones who RULE WELL???

And doesn't this infer that there are leaders who may not actually be ruling well but that Jesus died for them none-the-less???

Do believers sometimes display a tendency to exalt themselves (2Corinthians12:7:

So you're actually accusing Paul of exalting the flesh by acknowledging there are some among leaders who might RULE WELL?? Should we therefore cut that verse of scripture out of the Bible for who knows....we might actually be tempted to suggest others are doing the same too as in ruling well???? But then if you take that out I guess there's really no one who is worthy of double honor. So why did he say it?? So you're advocating Paul was mistaken???? Seems like you are.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Well you like to put everything in question form but isn't that something you need to ask God???

Isn't he the one through the Apostle Paul who stated some are worthy of double honor due to their actions???

Wasn't it HE which made the point in regard to the ones who RULE WELL???

And doesn't this infer that there are leaders who may not actually be ruling well but that Jesus died for them none-the-less???



So you're actually accusing Paul of exalting the flesh by acknowledging there are some among leaders who might RULE WELL?? Should we therefore cut that verse of scripture out of the Bible for who knows....we might actually be tempted to suggest others are doing the same too as in ruling well???? But then if you take that out I guess there's really no one who is worthy of double honor. So why did he say it?? So you're advocating Paul was mistaken???? Seems like you are.

there are some among leaders who might RULE WELL?? Should

Is there a difference between "one ruling well" and considering "one deserves wages or double honor for ruling well"?

In other words, is there a difference between "doing good works" and "trusting in good works to be rewarded"?

Should I rule well & do good works BUT trust ONLY in Christ's works on the cross to be rewarded by God with double honor etc?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Why not we talk ONLY about what Scriptures say?



Haven't I given a new testament Scripture which is 2 Corinthians 1:20 in support?

Where is the promise of automatic prosperity for every believer in that Scripture?

 

[Si_monfaith]

Where is the promise of automatic prosperity for every believer in that Scripture?

Have you read the promise in Deuteronomy 6:10-12 for what you mean by automatic prosperity?

Is the above promise included under promises of God in 2 Corinthians 1:20?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Have you read the promise in Deuteronomy 6:10-12 for what you mean by automatic prosperity?

Is the above promise included under promises of God in 2 Corinthians 1:20?

The Deuteronomy reference still doesn't prove anything. That is talking about Jews entering into Canaan. What I want to see is where Paul says anywhere that Christian believers will be automatically financially and materially prosperous and wealthy if they have enough faith. If you cannot show me that, you have not proved your point.

 

[Si_monfaith]

The Deuteronomy reference still doesn't prove anything. That is talking about Jews entering into Canaan. What I want to see is where Paul says anywhere that Christian believers will be automatically financially and materially prosperous and wealthy if they have enough faith. If you cannot show me that, you have not proved your point.

Does "God's promises" refer to what God has promised in the old testament?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Does "God's promises" refer to what God has promised in the old testament?

Before I respond any further, I will wait until you can find any statements from Paul regarding automatic prosperity based on faith.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Before I respond any further, I will wait until you can find any statements from Paul regarding automatic prosperity based on faith.

Was it Paul who talked about "God's promises" in 2 Cor 1:20?

 

[AbbaLove]

Have received the Word of Faith bi-monthly magazine by Kenneth Hagin ministries going now on 25+ years. In the "Timeless Teachings" (excerpt reprints by the K. E. Hagin, Sr) any mention of prosperity was much more than just tangible prosperity.

Three of todays most influential WOF (aka prosperity gospel) preachers have never been invited to be guest speakers at a Rhema mens conference (e.g. A Call to ARMS) because of their WOF [tangible prosperity] emphasis.

Over the past year (possibly due to Covid-19) Andrew Womack's weekday "Gospel Truth" broadcasts are beginning to sound more like that of KC, JD and JS. For years AW stressed his faith for sufficient finances to cover building expenses. However, he has since had to depend on a bank loan(s) to cover some of the construction costs.

Genesis 26:12
Now Isaac sowed in that land and reaped in the same year a hundredfold. And the Lord blessed him,

Matthew 13:8
And others fell on the good soil and *yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.

Mark 10:30
but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

Luke 6:38
Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure—pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.”

Luke 6:37
Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."
​

One WOF Believer with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit may be accused of "judging" by another spirit-filled WOF Believer. A common reply might be ... "I don't judge, but i do disern " when it comes to how one interpretates the above verses and others.

Two Believers both with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with further evidence of the Gift of "tongues" may differ when it comes to Kenneth E Hagin's Rhema WOF (e.g. health, healing prosperity blessings) versus the WOF emphasis of Kenneth Copeland, Jessse Duplantis, Jerry Savelle and others (e.g. tangible prosperity blessings).

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Before I respond any further, I will wait until you can find any statements from Paul regarding automatic prosperity based on faith.

I have just realised that I have been posting on the Word of Faith forum, which is protected for those in the WOF faith community. So any debating on my part is now ceased with my apologies. I just read this morning that Calvin says that "the heart is purified by faith and corrupted by unbelief". Paul says "the just shall live by faith". So there you are.

 

[AbbaLove]

I have just realised that I have been posting on the Word of Faith forum,
which is protected for those in the WOF faith community.

So any debating on my part is now ceased with my apologies.

​

Can we all agree that the following 'tongue' is a most precious gift from Almighty GOD
resonating with our innermost heartfelt love for the Father's redeeming Salvation​

PS: All faith forums at CF are "Christian" including Messianic forum (according to CF policy)​

 

[AbbaLove]

The title of this WOF thread ... The tongue ... would not be compete without Harry's insightful replies. Have always viewed his replies as akin to those of a forum 'elder' bringing balance.

Thank You, Harry for your continued service to HIS faithful 'Church' and your service to America ....

Yes, Oscarr… The content of your post has more than (some) alarming truth in today's Word of Faith. Take (some) of the prosperity teaching over the years for an example. Kenneth Hagin was led to write his book... The Midas Touch. Some listened, some didn't.

​

 

[hhodgson]

The title of this WOF thread ... The tongue ... would not be compete without Harry's insightful replies. Have always viewed his replies as akin to those of a forum 'elder' bringing balance.

Thank You, Harry for your continued service to HIS faithful 'Church' and your service to America. .

Wow! Your quite welcome AbbaLove. Thank you for your reply. Yes, you're right about bringing balance to this forum concerning Word of Faith beliefs especially in the crisis times were living in.

In this forum we welcome anyone to enter in to fellowship with us. Many do come in from time to time that may not be Word of Faith but their WOF friendly.

Once again, thank you, and have a great day.

Harry...

​

 

[AbbaLove]

Yes, you're right about bringing balance to this forum concerning Word of Faith beliefs especially
in the crisis times were living in.

Luke 21:28
But when these things begin to come to pass, look up,
and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh.

​

Dr. Billye Brim is a WOF 'Messianic' Christian (IMO) from the standpoint that she realizes the importance of the Feasts Of The LORD to HIS Ekklesia (called out chosen ones - Matthew 22:14). This [tongue] message and two others were presented at WOF LWCC about the Festivals Of The LORD. Gives you some insight why my CF faith icon is "Messianic" Christian.

Dr. Brim has often mentioned that her earthly 'mentor' was the late Kenneth E Hagin, Sr. (beginning in the 1980s). FWIW, the WOF movement as originally presented (and still is today) by Kenneth Hagin Ministries has never endorsed what's presented as the 'Prosperity Gospel' message of KC, JD and JS.

One message of several in several WOF churches by Billye Brim this fall about the Feasts Of The LORD

Three messages - "God's Calendar and Jesus' Soon Return" by Billye Brim at LWCC WOF
September 20, 2021

PS: Several years ago an orthodox Jew in Yisra'el made the comment that until meeting Billye Brim he always had an unfavorable opinion of Christians. Now he understands the difference between so-called Christians and a real Christian. (FWIW) ...
​

 

[now faith]

Wow Just looked at this thread again, things have certainly came to pass that have been disturbing.
It started in 2019.
Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulful the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

The Word of God is omnipresent, Christians are still blasting other Christians, and the days are evil.
Christians have voted for people who do not represent the Kingdom of God as well.
In some ways it seems the world is beguiled with a delusion.
Well We had read that it would be under a delusion, in 2nd Thessalonians.
I'm ready when Christ is, and I will wait and witness as long as He wants.
God has, and will bless those who endure till the end.
lol if its here I will check it in a couple of years