The tongue.

[Si_monfaith]

Everything that we need to get us out of hell and into heaven is covered by the atonement, otherwise it is not a total atonement for our sins and Jesus is not a complete Saviour.

The verse you have quoted puts a big spanner into the works of those who believe in guaranteed health and healing, and prosperity, because the Corinthians were seriously afflicted and were in extreme poverty, but were joyful in the Lord, and generous to the saints in other areas. Jesus said that in the world we will have tribulation, but because He has overcome the world, even though we are afflicted with problems, sickness and poverty, we can have peace and joy through our faith in Christ.

Do you mean to say they who were in extreme poverty didn't have the faith to overcome poverty?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Do you mean to say they who were in extreme poverty didn't have the faith to overcome poverty?

Paul never said that. I don't think that they lacked in faith at all. They maintain their love, peace and joy in spite of their horrible conditions. If Paul had thought their improverished situation was because of a lack of faith, he would have said so.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Paul never said that. I don't think that they lacked in faith at all. They maintain their love, peace and joy in spite of their horrible conditions. If Paul had thought their improverished situation was because of a lack of faith, he would have said so.

If they had faith why wasn't their poverty overcome with prosperity?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If they had faith why wasn't their poverty overcome with prosperity?

Because they had not heard Kenneth Copeland's preaching!

Prosperity theology was unknown in the early church of the First Century.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Because they had not heard Kenneth Copeland's preaching!

Prosperity theology was unknown in the early church of the First Century.

Mathew 11:27:"no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him".
So was it the Lord's sovereign decision not to give the teaching to those in the early church as it is missing among many even in the current church as well?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Mathew 11:27:"no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him".
So was it the Lord's sovereign decision not to give the teaching to those in the early church as it is missing among many even in the current church as well?

In fact, when the Holy Spirit was really moving in the early church, believers sold land and properties and brought the money into the fellowship to support those who were in need. In fact, the reason why deacons were appointed was to make sure that widows and orphans were provided for, so that they had their basic needs provided. So, in a sense, those who possessed land and property were in anti-prosperity mode.

You would never have had prosperity preachers having great wealth and living in palatial mansions at that time while many in the fellowship were living in poverty. But these wealthy prosperity preachers who have amassed their wealth through the offerings of ordinary mums, dads, grandmas, and widows, have no concern for the poor. All they can say is that these poor people "have no faith". But it is not faith that has enabled the prosperity preachers to become rich. It is because they have scammed ordinary hard-working people out of their money through false promises of prosperity for them. It is actually a form of theft and fraud. They would not have been accepted at all by Peter and the others in the early church!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Edited. Not appropriate for this forum.

 

[Si_monfaith]

In fact, when the Holy Spirit was really moving in the early church, believers sold land and properties and brought the money into the fellowship to support those who were in need. In fact, the reason why deacons were appointed was to make sure that widows and orphans were provided for, so that they had their basic needs provided. So, in a sense, those who possessed land and property were in anti-prosperity mode.

You would never have had prosperity preachers having great wealth and living in palatial mansions at that time while many in the fellowship were living in poverty. But these wealthy prosperity preachers who have amassed their wealth through the offerings of ordinary mums, dads, grandmas, and widows, have no concern for the poor. All they can say is that these poor people "have no faith". But it is not faith that has enabled the prosperity preachers to become rich. It is because they have scammed ordinary hard-working people out of their money through false promises of prosperity for them. It is actually a form of theft and fraud. They would not have been accepted at all by Peter and the others in the early church!

If you aren't WOF why do you post against? Why don't you avoid criticising using people's name? Does your response have any relevance to my question?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If you aren't WOF why do you post against? Why don't you avoid criticising using people's name? Does your response have any relevance to my question?

All I am saying is what is recorded in the New Testament. I am not posting against WOF as such because I believe that we really do need to confess the promises of God as they are set out in the New Testament. The Scripture says that if we believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths the Lord Jesus, we will be saved. Therefore confession in its right place is correct.

But using confession as some sort of power to get an outcome or what we want, is just another form of pagan Hindu mind-control - that if we believe hard enough and confess it long enough it will happen. This type of confession is pagan and non-Christian.

There are no Scriptures in the New Testament that a faithful Christian has to be prosperous. Jesus wasn't, so are you saying that He didn't have enough faith to have somewhere to lay His head, which the Scripture says that He hadn't anywhere to lay His head.

Paul was never prosperous either, he gives a description of all the different states he found himself from time to time, and he said that he was content in any state he found himself in.

It seems that some seem to ignore Scripture and come up with "revelations" concerning prosperity that are not found in it. My view is that if it is not clearly referred to or taught in the New Testament, it is false.

So, I am not against the WOF movement because it shows a powerful truth if used according to Scripture. But some have tried to use it to get bigger houses, bank accounts, and flash motor vehicles, and even jet planes!

From what I see, some of the most prominent WOF preachers (not all), have amassed great wealth, large mansions, fleets of motor cars, etc., all from the offerings of people who can hardly afford it, and who are under the impression that they are giving it to the Lord's work, but instead the money has gone into the personal wealth and assets of the preachers themselves.

I don't see that type of covetousness as part of the foundation principles of the WOF movement. I think it are the greedy, covetous preachers who are in the WOF movement only for the money who should be exposed as the cultish non-Christians that they are.

These are the ones who have brought the WOF movement into disrepute and prejudiced godly people against what could be a great asset to their Christian experience.

 

[now faith]

All I am saying is what is recorded in the New Testament. I am not posting against WOF as such because I believe that we really do need to confess the promises of God as they are set out in the New Testament. The Scripture says that if we believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths the Lord Jesus, we will be saved. Therefore confession in its right place is correct.

But using confession as some sort of power to get an outcome or what we want, is just another form of pagan Hindu mind-control - that if we believe hard enough and confess it long enough it will happen. This type of confession is pagan and non-Christian.

There are no Scriptures in the New Testament that a faithful Christian has to be prosperous. Jesus wasn't, so are you saying that He didn't have enough faith to have somewhere to lay His head, which the Scripture says that He hadn't anywhere to lay His head.

Paul was never prosperous either, he gives a description of all the different states he found himself from time to time, and he said that he was content in any state he found himself in.

It seems that some seem to ignore Scripture and come up with "revelations" concerning prosperity that are not found in it. My view is that if it is not clearly referred to or taught in the New Testament, it is false.

So, I am not against the WOF movement because it shows a powerful truth if used according to Scripture. But some have tried to use it to get bigger houses, bank accounts, and flash motor vehicles, and even jet planes!

From what I see, some of the most prominent WOF preachers (not all), have amassed great wealth, large mansions, fleets of motor cars, etc., all from the offerings of people who can hardly afford it, and who are under the impression that they are giving it to the Lord's work, but instead the money has gone into the personal wealth and assets of the preachers themselves.

I don't see that type of covetousness as part of the foundation principles of the WOF movement. I think it are the greedy, covetous preachers who are in the WOF movement only for the money who should be exposed as the cultish non-Christians that they are.

These are the ones who have brought the WOF movement into disrepute and prejudiced godly people against what could be a great asset to their Christian experience.

I think that as a whole many have fallen.
Word of Faith is a easy target, yet there are many teachers and preachers that perplex our sense of who they really are.
As far your comments they are welcome here.
Word of Faith came from the Charismatic movement, there is not much difference in full Gospel believers.
We have a better hope today than our humble beginnings of the first Churches that were under great persecution.
It will disappear if we do not join together, not as universalist,but as like believers and who has recieved the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
One Body of believers who know the truth in Christ.
A delusion is here , as spoken in second Thessalonians.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think that as a whole many have fallen.
Word of Faith is a easy target, yet there are many teachers and preachers that perplex our sense of who they really are.
As far your comments they are welcome here.
Word of Faith came from the Charismatic movement, there is not much difference in full Gospel believers.
We have a better hope today than our humble beginnings of the first Churches that were under great persecution.
It will disappear if we do not join together, not as universalist,but as like believers and who has recieved the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
One Body of believers who know the truth in Christ.
A delusion is here , as spoken in second Thessalonians.

Whenever the devil drops a condemnation bomb on me through my lack of performance, I confess, "By grace are we saved through faith, not of myself, but it is the gift of God, and not through works that I should boast in them." That is surely a WOF confession!

When I worry about the future, I confess, "My times are in the hands of the Lord". And when I worry about being able to afford to pay the bills, I confess, "My God shall supply all my needs according to His riches in glory".

You will see at the bottom of my posts, "I was a young man and now I am old, and I have never seen the righteous forsaken nor his seed begging bread". I confessed that when I was 21 years old, and now I am 71, that confession has been totally fulfilled. Except, that when my 27 year old daughter runs out of money she begs it from us!!

When I have had a medical condition, I have confessed, "You are the Lord who heals me". I still enjoy perfect health. I have arthritis in my thumb joints, and the doctor at the hand clinic is amazed that I still have movement in it without pain, because there is no cartilage left in the joint! I wonder where the pain that should have been there, went?

So that is my take on my belief in the Word of Faith.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Whenever the devil drops a condemnation bomb on me through my lack of performance, I confess, "By grace are we saved through faith, not of myself, but it is the gift of God, and not through works that I should boast in them." That is surely a WOF confession!

When I worry about the future, I confess, "My times are in the hands of the Lord". And when I worry about being able to afford to pay the bills, I confess, "My God shall supply all my needs according to His riches in glory".

You will see at the bottom of my posts, "I was a young man and now I am old, and I have never seen the righteous forsaken nor his seed begging bread". I confessed that when I was 21 years old, and now I am 71, that confession has been totally fulfilled. Except, that when my 27 year old daughter runs out of money she begs it from us!!

When I have had a medical condition, I have confessed, "You are the Lord who heals me". I still enjoy perfect health. I have arthritis in my thumb joints, and the doctor at the hand clinic is amazed that I still have movement in it without pain, because there is no cartilage left in the joint! I wonder where the pain that should have been there, went?

So that is my take on my belief in the Word of Faith.

Do all have the faith you have? Don't many lack faith in the promises which you quoted? If yes, what's the reason?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Do all have the faith you have? Don't many lack faith in the promises which you quoted? If yes, what's the reason?

I don't know. You will have to ask them. My crystal ball got broken

 

[Si_monfaith]

I don't know. You will have to ask them. My crystal ball got broken

Is God's sovereign will the reason by which He begins faith through His Son for some (like you) and not for all?

Should we thank God for choosing us to begin faith in us (James 2:5: "Has not God chosen the poor in the world to be rich in faith?")?

 

[Bobber]

You may or may not like Kenneth Copeland, but what inside edition did was gross.

Oh yeah sure but the world will do what they world will do. We all know that. And we understand as well the dear lady is highly motivated and feeling compelled to capture a minister answering something in an awkward way. Goes with her business of what her employers want. Gotta make it look like she's done her job.

Copeland was getting into his SUV and a girl rushed up to him with a microphone.
This was on His property keep this in mind.

Yeah all true.

She started to bomb him with calling people on airplanes Demons.

I thought he answered that though. Not about the people but spiritual forces that are also present. It was a statement line he made in his broadcast and really though the Christian community KNEW what he meant. Of course the world will jump on any thing and run with it the wrong way.

Before He could answer She was throwing more and more rhetorical accusatory questions at him.

Again the nature of what the news media does. They want that gotcha moment. I think I would have said to her, "And I think we can both agree some of these questions are rhetorical in nature." And smile.

She ignored one answer that I liked.
She asked how he had gotten so rich.
Copeland replied .. see all this land we are on, he pointed outward and said it is full of natural gas. Or implied there was a abundance of wealth on that property.
He should have shut it down then, he went on to preach about Abrahams blessing being on us and quoting Galations.

Perhaps you're right. Hard to say. Id did however allow Kenneth to provide a scriptural bases for Christians even to be considered to have wealth.

Ultimately God will judge, being part of Word of Faith gets you a lot of critism.

I think it's most important though to understand it's not really people who are our enemies. Not in the truest sense. It's the spiritual forces which control or motivate people who are off the word. They're the ones who are the true enemy. In other words the devil and cohorts.

 

[hhodgson]

Edited. Not appropriate for this forum.

Yes, Oscarr… No so appropriate for this forum, but...! The content of your post has more than (some) alarming truth in today's Word of Faith. Take (some) of the prosperity teaching over the years for an example. Kenneth Hagin was led to write his book... The Midas Touch. Some listened, some didn't.

 

[hhodgson]

Do all have the faith you have? Don't many lack faith in the promises which you quoted? If yes, what's the reason?

I believe that we were all given "the" measure of faith which is the same full measure that Jesus had. The difference is that Jesus (always) used the maximum full measure... while we
through unbelief have to work ourselves back up to the full measure that was initially given to us. Jesus (as 100% man) was the only one who continually operated in the full measure given to Him.

 

[Si_monfaith]

Oh yeah sure but the world will do what they world will do. We all know that. And we understand as well the dear lady is highly motivated and feeling compelled to capture a minister answering something in an awkward way. Goes with her business of what her employers want. Gotta make it look like she's done her job.



Yeah all true.



I thought he answered that though. Not about the people but spiritual forces that are also present. It was a statement line he made in his broadcast and really though the Christian community KNEW what he meant. Of course the world will jump on any thing and run with it the wrong way.



Again the nature of what the news media does. They want that gotcha moment. I think I would have said to her, "And I think we can both agree some of these questions are rhetorical in nature." And smile.



Perhaps you're right. Hard to say. Id did however allow Kenneth to provide a scriptural bases for Christians even to be considered to have wealth.



I think it's most important though to understand it's not really people who are our enemies. Not in the truest sense. It's the spiritual forces which control or motivate people who are off the word. They're the ones who are the true enemy. In other words the devil and cohorts.

It's the spiritual forces which control or motivate people who are off the word. They're the ones who are the true enemy.

Do you mean to say God has no eternal plan & purpose behind the works of the enemy?

Could the enemy break-in & move beyond the hedge the Lord placed around Job apart from His purpose?

 

[Si_monfaith]

I believe that we were all given "the" measure of faith which is the same full measure that Jesus had. The difference is that Jesus (always) used the maximum full measure... while we
through unbelief have to work ourselves back up to the full measure that was initially given to us. Jesus (as 100% man) was the only one who continually operated in the full measure given to Him.

Do you mean to say it is you & not Christ who lives in you & uses faith?

Wasn't it Jesus not Peter, who freely chose to preserve Peter from unbelief according to Luke 22:32?

 

[Bobber]

Do you mean to say God has no eternal plan & purpose behind the works of the enemy?

Could the enemy break-in & move beyond the hedge the Lord placed around Job apart from His purpose?

I'm not really interested here in getting involved in Calvinistic type of discussion. I do that in other threads and on other sites. This area is about Word of Faith and would like to leave it at that.