The TITHES

[fatherjimparker]

The Tithes

Recently I start to hear calls for donation drive and sometimes even entire sermons have been dedicated to this issue, and not only in my church. And I hear them using the same phrase during their pleading for money, “preaching” over and over again,” GOD loves cheerful giver”. This phrase become almost like a slogan and like proverb for them. So, I took a look at the Bible to find out what it actually means.
The phrase was taking out from 2Corinthains 9.6-7

I have come to similar conclusions.
IMO
- The tithe is part of the Law of Moses which Jews are required to keep.
- For two years out of three the tithe was to be taken to Jerusalem where the family would celebrate the goodness of the Lord by, essentially, having a feast/party.
- In the third year, the tithe would be brought into the local storehouses (not the temple) so there would be provision for the widow, orphan, alien, and Levite.
- Paul's statement that the Lord loves a cheerful giver is contrasted with those who had to give (under compulsion) because the Law required it.
- Melchizedek got a tenth of the booty which Abraham took when he defeated the kings who took Lot captive. There is no indication that Abraham tithed annually of all his increase to Melchizedek. (So, do not go beyond what is written?)
- All references to tithing in the prophets and the Gospels were references concerning Jews under the Law of Moses.

It seems to me that Paul, like in the number of other of his writings kept the same theme, and in this particular case his theme was about money at all, but about good deeds of faith in the name of the Lord, of which he sometimes presented himself as an example, rejecting money completely out of the ministry of Christ, as the Christ Himself and his apostles did, and as all their early followers have done.

Jesus and his followers did have financial resources. Remember that Judas Iscariot kept the money purse. (John 13:29) It was from this common purse that Jesus told Phillip to go and buy bread for the multitude of followers. (John 6:5)

At least on two occasion Paul proudly mentioned that he by doing his trade of making tents, not only supported himself financially and materially, but also able to support and his companions in ministry, and by this he set a good example for all godly conscience people to do the same. He mentioned the number of time that he never been a financial burden to any one or to any church.

He also said that the one who makes his living by the Gospel should be paid to do so.

1Co 9:14 In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim
the gospel should get their living by the gospel.

1 Cor 9 teaches that he is entitled to be supported by those to whom he ministers. However, Paul chose to support himself.

Paul also told Timothy that the elders of the church (full time ministers) also deserved to receive an income for their work. (1 Ti 5:17-18)

Christians have a responsibility to their pastor/priest/leadership, who dedicate their lives to preaching/teaching the Word and mentoring their congregations, to provide them with a decent income so that they can enjoy the same level of prosperity as their congregation. We also have a responsibility to provide for the maintenance of the facilities we use as a place of worship and for utilities if we want the lights to go on, the toilets to flush, air conditioning to cool in the summer and heat to heat in the winter and the roof to keep the rain out.

However, since paying for those things requires money, I think Paul was including money in his teaching. Remember that he collected money for the believers in Jerusalem and took it to them.

But, as you said, good works are also included in our "giving

This phrase of Paul about cheerful giver does not related to donation of money or to tithes in any way as the church using it in their favor. The church twisted and edited the meaning of Paul words and his entire theme of self-reliance and self-support, to sufficiently provide for yourself and for others and not idling, and to avoid reliance purely on money or on the help of the church in the missionary work for Christ.

I think you have misinterpreted Paul considering his comments at 1 Cor 9 and 1 Tim 5.

Paul was asking them to give liberally for the relief of the believers in Jerusalem

2Co 8:3-3 For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond
their means, of their own free will,begging us earnestly for the favor of taking
part in the relief of the saints--

That relief would have been in the form of money.

Consider Peter's comment to the believers of Jerusalem:

Act 6:2-4 And the twelve summoned the body of the disciples and said, "It is
not right that we should give up preaching the word of God to serve tables.
Therefore, brethren, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full
of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint to this duty. But we will
devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word."

If you want a full-time preacher/teacher/pastor then the congregation has an obligation to provide for his needs and the needs of his family.

If you are satisfied with a part-time minister, who will not have the time to properly study the word, pray, and do all the things people expect him to do, then let him get a secular job rather than devote himself 100% to prayer and the ministry of the word.


jim

 

[A New World]

I agree that if a congregation wants a full time pastor they should pay his wages.

But I think the question is: Are those who are under the New Covenant required to pay tithes as those who were under the Old Covenant?

Many modern pastors teach their congregations using the words of Malachi which he directed to the Old Covenant nation of Israel:
"Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say, 'In what way have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings. You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation. Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, That there may be food in My house, And try Me now in this," Says the LORD of hosts, "If I will not open for you the windows of heaven And pour out for you such blessing That there will not be room enough to receive it. (Mal. 3:8-10)

I think it is manipulative for a modern pastor to teach tithing since it was a unique system instituted by God for the twelve tribes of Israel.

The result of this error is not the people robbing God as in Malachi's day, it's pastors robbing the people due to a misapplication of the text.

On a lighter note: I heard a story about a pastor who named his expensive boat "The Storehouse" and justified it with the words of Malachi- "Bring all the tithes into the storehouse."

 

[Simon Peter]

But I think the question is: Are those who are under the New Covenant required to pay tithes as those who were under the Old Covenant?

Let's pretend that we are completely legally bound to pay the OT Tithes:

Levitical Tithe: No Tithe possible. Because Levites in Israel now own land in Israel (they are no longer banned from owning land). Even if it were possible, this is only if you had ten animals born this year, or a tenth of the increase of your crops.
Festival tithe No Tithe possible. Because I believe the law required this be celebrated at the Temple in Jerusalem. But even if you want to make the trip, and bend the 'temple' part, this tithe is spent on yourself and your own family, and the poor should be invited to join you, it did not go to Levites or priests.
Poor Tithe: Tithe is possible. But only if you had ten animals born this year, or a tenth of the increase of your crops. Anyone a farmer? This Tithe was only once every three years, and was used in your own home and the poor were invited. None of this tithe went to Levites or priests, unless they happened to be poor.

---

Many modern pastors teach their congregations using the words of Malachi which he directed to the Old Covenant nation of Israel:
"Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed Me! But you say, 'In what way have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings. You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation. Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, That there may be food in My house, And try Me now in this," Says the LORD of hosts, "If I will not open for you the windows of heaven And pour out for you such blessing That there will not be room enough to receive it. (Mal. 3:8-10)

I think it is manipulative for a modern pastor to teach tithing since it was a unique system instituted by God for the twelve tribes of Israel.

The result of this error is not the people robbing God as in Malachi's day, it's pastors robbing the people due to a misapplication of the text.

The great irony here is that this prophecy was speaking to and criticizing the temple PRIESTS not lay people.
The PRIESTS were robbing God. Hmmm... has anything changed?
The priests should have been looking after the poor from the temple storehouse, but they were keeping it themselves.

Modern church budget:
50% Staff salaries
30% building mortgage (bank gets most)
10% missions (Missionary salaries)
0.5% The poor (If they're lucky)



Simon

 

[Simon Peter]

Bump...

 

[Hank77]

The Levitical Tithe was very clear that it was only the tenth of any newborn livestock and a tenth of the increase of any crops.
Flocks and crops ONLY.

The only people who tithed were:
1. Landowners/farmers (not their workmen) who had reaped a crop.
2. Flock owners (not their shepherds) who had more than 9 newborn livestock in a season, and it was the tenth that was given, not the first.
Labourers did not tithe.
Soldiers did not tithe.
Fishermen did not tithe.
Scribes did not tithe.
Carpenters did not tithe.
et al.

This Tithe did not go to the temple, it went to Levites who lived all over Israel.
The OT Levitical tithe was to compensate Levites because they had no inheritance in the land.
Levites had normal jobs like everyone else, Levites only worked in the Temple 2 weeks a year.

The OT Levitical tithe is the best support for modern church tithing that Pastors can come up with, but it's fabricated and false.

I agree with most of your post, expect the time serviced in the temple each year. Oh, and the Levites gave a tenth of their tenth to the High Priest. Here is some added info.
"Before the Temple was built, David received instructions from the Holy Spirit and showed Solomon how to divide the priests and the Levites and how they were to serve. In the Temple, there were several classes of Levites:

• Priests (1 Chronicles 24:1-19)
• Priests' Assistants (1 Chronicles 23:4,28)
• Singers (1 Chronicles 25:7-31)
• Musicians (1 Chronicles 23:5)
• Gatekeepers (1 Chronicles 26:1-19)
• Keepers of the Treasure (1 Chronicles 26:20-28)

In addition, there were also officers and judges (1 Chronicles 26:29-32) that assigned outside responsibilities.

The priests and the Levites were divided into 24 courses within their assigned class. The length of each course was 7 days (1 Chronicles 9:25). The week of service began and ended on the Sabbath (2 Chronicles 23:8). In addition, all the priests served for 3 extra weeks during the year (Deuteronomy 16:16).

"Each course of priests and Levites came on duty for a week, from one Sabbath to another. It should be made clear that not every priest and Levite in a course served every day. The service was subdivided among the various families which constituted a course. The number of families in a course varied. The singers had only one family in each course (1 Chronicles 25:7-31) whereas the other classes had up to 9 families in a course.

The Jewish calendar has only 51 weeks in a year. Each of the 24 courses therefore served twice a year, plus 3 weeks they all served, for a total of 5 weeks during the year. Every 2 or 3 years, there is a leap year which adds a leap month. It was not certain how the priests served these extra days."
http://www3.telus.net/public/kstam/en/temple/details/priest_service.htm

Just a little tidbit.....Because of knowing about the coarse of the Levites, the date of Jesus birth can be determined from scripture because John the Baptist father was a Levite and we can know when he was serving at the temple.

 

[Hank77]

Plus there's visiting the sick, helping out the needy, counseling and advising people who need help. . . The list goes on and on.

When pastors take all these duties they are stealing the blessings that should go to the other elders. They shouldn't be counseling the women, the elder women of the church do that. Many pastors think they can counsel all marriages and do not discern when professional Christian counselors are needed. I heard this story over and over from pastors. Do your own job and let the laity do theirs, is what I say. Pastors are only one of the elders. Pastors should not be in charge of the finances either.

I have no problems with giving and I still give (to my parents who tithe some of it to their church and also distribute some to our poor relatives) even when I'm not affiliated with any church.

Did you say you live with your parents? Maybe not?
If so you should be paying them to live there, chipping in with the expenses. That is not helping them but paying your own way, just like if you were living on your own, only less expensive for you.

Jesus did not directly called the woman dog. Also the dog was was possibly a reference to Anubis and Anput. The God and Goddess of Egypt. Anput was synonymous to the "Trinitry of Goddesses of Egypt" - Ma'at, Isis, and Hathor.

Yeah, He did. The Jews referred to anyone who was not an Israelite as dogs. That is why Jesus used the expression. Not because He felt that way about her but He tried her faith. She believed strongly enough in Him and who He was that she was not going to give up just because He had used the offensive term and it pleased Him.
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Also, the term Gentile, doesn't mean a non-Jew. A Gentile is synonymous to being called "worldly" or adopting the ways of the world or nations.... A Gentile is not a racial distinction but rather one's beliefs and ways.

Jew is not a racial distinction either. The Jews are not a race. They were a nation of people, the nations that were not Israel were collectively called Greeks/Gentiles by the Israelites.

I will stand with Jesus, Luke, Paul and Ananias.

Me too, And Peter, James, John, and the Counsel at Jerusalem.

If the Levites only received crops and livestock how did they support themselves and their families regarding their other needs?

They sold part of the animals and crops in exchange for other goods. Just as farmers do today.

 

[timewerx]

Did you say you live with your parents? Maybe not?
If so you should be paying them to live there, chipping in with the expenses. That is not helping them but paying your own way, just like if you were living on your own, only less expensive for you.

I work overseas so, no I don't live with them.

I only leave $50 to myself per month, sometimes, less. The company I work for provides the accommodation and bus (I pay for my internet) but it's literally like a prison compound, including the food, the people, and the guards.

Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of expanse suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

The ruling authorities of the world today are those violent.

 

[Blades]

I am starting a New buissness Venture early Next year, the first 10% of my income goes back into Gods Ecomnomy caring for the poor the weak the homless etc, however because we live in the era of Grace I will be making regular other donations to charities that care for the poor the weak the homeless etc....

 

[Hank77]

I only leave $50 to myself per month, sometimes, less. The company I work for provides the accommodation and bus (I pay for my internet) but it's literally like a prison compound, including the food, the people, and the guards.

Oh my, I think I may have seen a documentary on those same types of living conditions in an Asian country. It is truly like living in a prison. The one I saw, married couples cannot stay together. They are living in separate gender segregated barracks. I truly wish your living conditions were better. I commend you for caring for your family. And I will pray for all of you.

The ruling authorities of the world today are those violent.

Yes

 

[Great Commission Sam]

IMO, that is not just the responsibility of the pastor but everyone.

Also, I'm not a big fan of Apostle Paul so I'll tell things upfront:

Prior to Paul, there were no churches. The ministry of Jesus is often a one-time preaching only to many people.

Jesus sow the seed of truth in people and those who gladly accept, build on it from there on and doing the same thing as Jesus did.

I am a big fan of Paul because he understood the stupidity of man better than most lol. 83% of Americans claim to be Christians. One of the true goals for a Christian is to be a disciple maker (Great Commission). If there is over 300 million people that claim to be Christians in the US, how many of them would you say are true disciple makers? Our Father knew most would never truly know how to disciple anyone, so He made it simple. The problem with the American church is that we depend too much on the pastors, a typical Christian is happy when they invite someone to church and let the church leaders do the rest. That was never the intention of Christ, He picked simple men as his disciples for a reason. If a bunch of ordinary men could do it, we should all be able to do it.

The ministry of Jesus was not a one-time preaching to many people. The reason so many people showed up when He spoke is because He was so cool His disciples was His ministry. He spent the majority of His time teaching the 13 disciples (This is also a very successful business practice, anyone that has ever run a successful company will tell you that having to many people reporting to you will end in chaos and failure).

Everything Paul did was because my Father allowed him too. He has a plan for everything, my Father doesn't randomly do things without a reason. He let's things happen for a reason. My Father is the best with probabilities, by having churches set up the way they are, imagine what He was able to do? How many millions of people were drawn to an organized church because of the social gathering aspect? How many of them went to church because they were looking for a wife? or a husband? or for business venture? I'm not saying these are good reasons for attending church but how many of those people that attended church for the wrong reason eventually developed a personal relationship with the Him? My Father sees all and knows all, if by creating churches that gather once a week was able to bring only 100 true Christians to Him, He would do it, because those 100 is worth everything to Him.

 

[timewerx]

Oh my, I think I may have seen a documentary on those same types of living conditions in an Asian country. It is truly like living in a prison. The one I saw, married couples cannot stay together. They are living in separate gender segregated barracks. I truly wish your living conditions were better. I commend you for caring for your family. And I will pray for all of you.


Yes

I'm actually working overseas in Saudi Arabia and those are the living conditions I face. At one point, there are four of us crammed in one small room that served as both our living room and bedroom so I suffered from sleep deprivation for a time. We had to share the outside bathroom with 18 other people. If that's not enough, we get harassed so often by local, Saudi boys here. We can't hit them back for they can easily turn the law against us even if we did nothing. All we can do is run or just avoid them altogether.

Due to harassment issues and intolerable outside heat, we can't get out as much as we want to. PRISON is no better or worse way to describe it. If that's not enough, our Arab colleagues always blame us poor Asians for mistakes we never did. It goes on everyday.

It's crazy, only way I could cope with this is to literally turn off my emotions in anticipation of bad encounters and turn them on again for a light turn of events like when spending time with friends. At least all these crazy things taught to me to master control of my emotions.

But I only got few opportunities in this world. I might as well just hold tight and see where this takes me.

 

[God all in all]

I won't argue with any of those verses. Not all our donations go to the pastor. There is expense involved in the upkeep of the building and grounds, etc.

God does love a cheerful giver no matter what you are giving: time, money, talents.

Mark 12
41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. 42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. 43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: 44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

you should look in Luke 20:46 - 21:4 as one unity!!! The whole context shows that poor widow's offer was not comended by Jesus, rather He stated the sad fact that she was hard pressed and squeezed into giving by religious elite. The fact is: she actually gave much more than those who were giving much. But it does not imply Jesus approves it, commends it or invites us to follow her example. (Or you think that Jesus would love us all to be pressed by those who "devour widows houses" too?)