The Time We Live In : Gog and Magog

[Jake Arsenal]

This is the type of post I came to this site to read. Thank you. I also want to thank all of you that have commented as well. This is an excellent discussion.

What if we could discuss prophesy without adding dogmas, teachings and traditions of men? What if we were to discuss these prophesies only in their context(excluding dispensationalism, raptures, EU, America, etc.)?

 

[Dustoff]

In light of the recent Israel/Iran war I had a few thoughts. Iran Hezbollah Hamas being dealt a severe blow. Syria wanting peace with Israel. Diplomatic relations starting with some of the other Arab countries. Its looking to me like we are entering the time of peace Ezekiel prophesied would occur just prior to the war of God and Magog. Ezekiel 38-39. Note 38/8,14. I gave my thoughts on the subject in extensive detail at the beginning of this thread.

Here is a very short recap.
We are in the endtimes spoken of all through the bible. Specifically the time the bridegroom has delayed his coming. Matt. 25/5 an endtime prophesy/parable.
that time began with the holding back of the war of Gog and Magog.
Endtime events will then resume with the going forth of that war which is on the horizon.
Some of those events will include the rise of the anti-christ in his power base in Europe and the building of the Jewish temple. As well as a deep cleansing and purging of the church prior to the rapture.

On issues like this we should always keep in mind what that great Yankee baseball philosopher Yogi Bera said . . .

“Predictions are difficult. Especially about the future”

 

[ViaCrucis]

In light of the recent Israel/Iran war I had a few thoughts. Iran Hezbollah Hamas being dealt a severe blow. Syria wanting peace with Israel. Diplomatic relations starting with some of the other Arab countries. Its looking to me like we are entering the time of peace Ezekiel prophesied would occur just prior to the war of God and Magog. Ezekiel 38-39. Note 38/8,14. I gave my thoughts on the subject in extensive detail at the beginning of this thread.

Here is a very short recap.
We are in the endtimes spoken of all through the bible. Specifically the time the bridegroom has delayed his coming. Matt. 25/5 an endtime prophesy/parable.
that time began with the holding back of the war of Gog and Magog.
Endtime events will then resume with the going forth of that war which is on the horizon.
Some of those events will include the rise of the anti-christ in his power base in Europe and the building of the Jewish temple. As well as a deep cleansing and purging of the church prior to the rapture.

On issues like this we should always keep in mind what that great Yankee baseball philosopher Yogi Bera said . . .

“Predictions are difficult. Especially about the future”

Given the plethora of predictions over the centuries, it may be--to put it mildly--imprudent to assign contemporary events prophetic significance.

If people were wrong twenty years ago during the Iraq War, and if people were wrong thirty years during the Gulf War, and if they were wrong over forty years ago, and so forth. Perhaps that is a good example to learn from.

Things happen in a fallen world. And Jesus told us as much, and these are not signs of the end, they are the pains of a fallen world, akin to the pains of childbirth. Recall what St. Paul says in Romans 8 about creation groaning in birth pangs, the pain and suffering of this present and fallen world is the present reality of sin and death and all evil--but it all precedes the coming redemption of all creation, the groaning of creation longing for what is new. That is what we behold in the world, not signs of the times, but the present sufferings of the world longing in the cold long night, hoping for the coming Daybreak. When the End comes, it does not come with our predictions; it comes without our knowing.

 

[keras]

We are in the endtimes spoken of all through the bible.

Right; and that can be proved by the time now elapsed, divided into exact 2000 year tranches, which point to Gods 7000 year plan for mankind.

We are now close to the end of 6000 years since Adam. There are just a few years of things to happen, as Revelation 6:12 to 19:11 describe.
WE are the generation who will see it all!

 

[Dustoff]

Given the plethora of predictions over the centuries, it may be--to put it mildly--imprudent to assign contemporary events prophetic significance.

If people were wrong twenty years ago during the Iraq War, and if people were wrong thirty years during the Gulf War, and if they were wrong over forty years ago, and so forth. Perhaps that is a good example to learn from.

Things happen in a fallen world. And Jesus told us as much, and these are not signs of the end, they are the pains of a fallen world, akin to the pains of childbirth. Recall what St. Paul says in Romans 8 about creation groaning in birth pangs, the pain and suffering of this present and fallen world is the present reality of sin and death and all evil--but it all precedes the coming redemption of all creation, the groaning of creation longing for what is new. That is what we behold in the world, not signs of the times, but the present sufferings of the world longing in the cold long night, hoping for the coming Daybreak. When the End comes, it does not come with our predictions; it comes without our knowing.

I take your point of predictions over the centuries. There is much info given in the scriptures concerning the latter or last days. We are to study to show ourselves approved on this as well as other subjects. Paul said we would see the day coming. The restoration of Israel and the restoration of Jerusalem are two unmistakable end time signs. Ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled in our day. It is quite reasonable to believe chap. 38-39 will follow.

 

[Douggg]

I take your point of predictions over the centuries. There is much info given in the scriptures concerning the latter or last days. We are to study to show ourselves approved on this as well as other subjects. Paul said we would see the day coming. The restoration of Israel and the restoration of Jerusalem are two unmistakable end time signs. Ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled in our day. It is quite reasonable to believe chap. 38-39 will follow.

I think the parable of the fig tree generation - not passing away before Jesus returns - is a good indicator that Gog/Magog should happen before the end of 2030.

The current events regarding Israel and Iran seems to indicate that Gog/Magog is close at hand.

Also the Ukraine/Russian war seems to indicate that Russia will seek to withdraw to Russia - heading home. In Ezekiel 38:4, God will put hooks in Gog's jaws and "turn back" Gog and bring forth Gog into the Gog/Magog attack.

Turned back from where? It could be turning the Russians back from heading home, to be dragged into the Gog/Magog attack.

It seem that God is judging Islam in the process, given that the attacking nations against Israel are muslims, and Russia has been supplying those nations with arms.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I take your point of predictions over the centuries. There is much info given in the scriptures concerning the latter or last days. We are to study to show ourselves approved on this as well as other subjects. Paul said we would see the day coming. The restoration of Israel and the restoration of Jerusalem are two unmistakable end time signs. Ezekiel 37 has been fulfilled in our day. It is quite reasonable to believe chap. 38-39 will follow.

Why do you believe Ezekiel 37 is about the modern state of Israel, rather than when the Jews were returned to the land from exile in Babylon? Didn't God fulfill His promise then? That He would return the people to the land, Jerusalem and the Temple would be rebuilt--that happened almost 2,500 years ago.

Just so there's no confusion, I don't believe the modern state of Israel is biblically significant. I don't put any more significance to the 1948 establishment of modern Israel than I do modern Cambodia or Pakistan (two nations I've chosen entirely by random for examples).

The Apostle doesn't say we would see the Day coming; rather he tells us that we should not be caught off guard. Because we hope and believe, when Christ returns in glory it will not be, for us, as though a burglary has happened--it will be a time of rejoicing, something we long and hope for: Christ the Lord returns.

"Now concerning the times and seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, 'There is peace and security,' then suddenly destruction will come upon them as labor pains upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape."

That means, quite explicitly, that the day comes when no one knows. Paul has nothing to say about times and seasons because when this happens is unknown, it will happen suddenly. It happens not following some predictive set of events, because people are saying "there is peace and security" that is, things are normal. The thief comes without warning. It will be as though a woman suddenly going into labor.

Paul then says,

"But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or the darkness. So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with Him."

The difference between us and the non-believing isn't that we will know when "the thief" comes; the difference is that when "the thief" comes, it will be destruction for the wicked; but for us who have our faith in the Lord, His coming is our great hope. When He comes He will tread upon the winepress of God's wrath, but we are not destined for wrath but salvation--so we should not look to Christ's return as though it were a burglary, it is instead our salvation. In this way we are awake and sober, not caught up in the drunkenness of this world, but living in faith, with love, and in hope of what is to come.

We will not know when He comes, no one does, and there isn't going to be a set of predictive events to tell us when--it will happen when nobody knows. But for us whose hope is in the Lord, we should not fear the day, but long for it with hope and patience. As St. Peter reminds us, He is not slack in keeping His promise, rather He desires that many should be saved.

In this way we are sober, and are as the wise virgins and the faithful servant: That we are faithful to the Lord here and now, not squandering what is given to us, but living lives of faithful obedience and love in service to Christ as His disciples.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[keras]

Ezekiel 37:1-10 The prophesy of the valley of dry bones.
Ezekiel 37:11-14....these bones are the whole people of Israel, they say; our bones are dry, our hope is gone.... The Lord says; My people, I shall bring you up from your graves and restore you to the Land of Israel. You will know that I am the Lord when I do this. I will put My spirit in you and settle you on your own soil. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 11:11-12

The Israelites were punished by God for their sins by dispersion into other lands. That is why they cry ‘our hope is gone, we are cut off’, they have lost their Israelite identity and become spiritually dead. Note that the bones, which metaphorically represent all 12 tribes of Israel, are displayed in an open field, showing that their exile is not an actual captivity. Ezekiel’s task is to bring the good news to them, to revive their hope and faith, that they are still God’s people, He hasn’t broken His covenant with them, He still loves them and the time has come when He will restore them into the Promised Land.

This gathering of all God’s people, now every faithful Christian, be they actual descendants of Jacob or grafted in, must happen before the Millennial time and the war of Gog and Magog in order for the Temple to be rebuilt and the 144,000 to be selected. This Spiritual death of the children of Israel will not last much longer. Through the prophet Elijah [Malachi 4:5], God will awaken them to their divine destiny. The long exile will be over; they will establish their own politically independent State in all of the Holy Land. The new nation of Beulah; Isaiah 62:1-5 The first stage of this redemption has been done in part of the Land, by the Jewish people, but they too, have not yet received a renewal of God’s Spirit. The ‘dry bones’ prophecy of Ezekiel does not mean physical resurrection of the dead, but is a symbolic vision, similar to other Biblical allegories. It means the end of exile and the beginning of restoration. Eze. 11:19, Eze 36:24-28 & 38

Ezekiel 37:15-28... I am taking the leaf of Israel and joining it to the leaf of Judah; they will be as one in My hand. I shall assemble them from every quarter and restore them to their own soil....

The prophecy of the ‘dry bones’ continues on to the “two leaf” prophecy. This is the time when the House of Judah rejoins with the House of Israel, separated since King Rehoboam’s time. It is only when both Houses reject their apostasy and sins, that they will be ready to become one nation again, a nation of priests and a light to the world. Still, this is not the final redemption, but a preliminary one, to enable their regathering and settlement into the Land of Greater Israel. Final redemption of the whole House of Israel, Jew and Gentile, will follow the destruction of the armies of Gog, who is motivated to attack because Beulah will be so wealthy and prosperous.

Ezekiel 38 & 39 The attack on New Israel by the armies of Gog and their destruction.
38:8...you will invade a land restored from ruin....the Israelites, brought out from the nations, living in peace and prosperity. [after the Psalms 83 event, before the Gog/Magog attack and before the Return of Jesus]

Ezekiel 39:21-29....from that Day forward the Israelites will know that I am the Lord their God...... I have dealt out to them what their sins deserved... now I shall restore all of them, leaving none behind and make them exemplify My Holiness for many nations to see. No longer will I hide My face from them, I who have poured out My spirit on Israel. This is the Word of the Lord. Reference: REB. Some verses abridged.

 

[Douggg]

Why do you believe Ezekiel 37 is about the modern state of Israel, rather than when the Jews were returned to the land from exile in Babylon?

In Ezekiel 37 fulfillment, Israel will no longer be divided as two kingdoms of north and south, but reunited as one nation.

So that applies to the modern state of Israel.

 

[keras]

In Ezekiel 37 fulfillment, Israel will no longer be divided as two kingdoms of north and south, but reunited as one nation.

So that applies to the modern state of Israel.

Explain why this has not happened yet: They will live under the shelter of My dwelling, I shall be their God and they will be My people. Ezekiel 37:27
This is the fate of the modern State of Israel ...I shall make a sudden and terrible end to all who dwell in the [Holy] Land. Zechariah 1:18

 

[ViaCrucis]

In Ezekiel 37 fulfillment, Israel will no longer be divided as two kingdoms of north and south, but reunited as one nation.

So that applies to the modern state of Israel.

When the Jewish people returned from exile, there was no division of north and south.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[keras]

When the Jewish people returned from exile, there was no division of north and south.

-CryptoLutheran

That is because they were and still are: only the House of Judah.
Only after the Lord has cleared and cleansed all the Holy Land, Ezekiel 21:1-7, will Judah and Israel rejoin and go there in search of their God. Jeremiah 50:4-5

 

[Douggg]

Explain why this has not happened yet: They will live under the shelter of My dwelling, I shall be their God and they will be My people. Ezekiel 37:27

Because Jesus has not returned yet.

 

[Leaf473]

That is because they were and still are: only the House of Judah.
Only after the Lord has cleared and cleansed all the Holy Land, Ezekiel 21:1-7, will Judah and Israel rejoin and go there in search of their God. Jeremiah 50:4-5

Where is Israel living now, in your view?

 

[keras]

Where is Israel living now, in your view?

The true Israelites of God are the faithful Christian peoples, now scattered around the world.
But after the Sixth Seal; the Lords great Day of vengeance and wrath, they will gather into all of the Holy Land, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 11:11-12, +. as plainly seen by John in Revelation 7:9. Proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, where the 'beast' will conquer them.

 

[keras]

Because Jesus has not returned yet.

Wrong!
Ezekiel 37:28 says: Then they will know I am the Lord. Plus many other verses that say His peoples will know the Lord has done great things for them - by His deeds, not His Prescence, yet. Destroying Gog and his horde, for example, Joel 2:20

Ezekiel 37:15-28 must happen before Jesus Returns. At the time of the Return, He will kill all the ungodly and rebellious peoples, Rev 19:17-19
There cannot be any other than the righteous faithful; ONE people of God, to enter the Millennium.

 

[Douggg]

Ezekiel 37:28 says: Then they will know I am the Lord. Plus many other verses that say His peoples will know the Lord has done great things for them - by His deeds, not His Prescence, yet. Destroying Gog and his horde, for example,

Jesus, Himself is speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29, having returned to this earth.

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

 

[keras]

Jesus, Himself is speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29, having returned to this earth

Prophesying through the Prophet Ezekiel, that's all.
It is quite impossible for this rejoining to happen after Jesus has Returned, Then there will be ONE refined and prepared people of God, ready to be His Priests and co-rulers. Revelation 5:10

In ancient times, when the Israelites first settled into the holy Land, the Lord promised to ‘dwell among them’.
Exodus 29:45-46 I shall dwell in the midst of My people, I shall become their God and by My dwelling among them they will know that I am the Lord their God who brought them out of Egypt.
This ‘dwelling’, was not as a visible entity but just His ‘Presence’, only seen by the people as a cloud or a pillar of fire that went before them during the Exodus and after the Temple was built, in the Holy of Holies as the Shekinah Glory. 1 Kings 8:10-11, 1 Corinthians10:4

Unfortunately those chosen people failed to keep their side of the Covenant and the Lord separated them into two Houses, 2 Kings 12:24. He sent the Assyrians to remove the Northern ten tribes of Israel, Isaiah 9:8. Their punishment by exile, was to be 390 years, Ezekiel 4:4. This was multiplied by seven, for their continued sins, Leviticus 26:18, giving a total decreed exile of 2730 years.
Then 130 years after the Assyrian conquest, Babylon took away the House of Judah, Isaiah 3:8-9 and their punishment was to be 40 years, Ezekiel 4:6 but, multiplied by seven times seven, Leviticus 26:24-28, for a total decreed exile of 1960 years.

The exile of the House of Israel will be completed very soon and the holy Land will be cleared and cleansed to enable all the Lord’s faithful Christian believers to settle in the holy Land, Isaiah 30:19-29, Psalms 69:35-36, Romans 9:24-26
Isaiah 11:11 On that Day, the Lord will exert His power a second time to recover the remnant of His people from all parts of the world.
The great Second Exodus of the Lords peoples, from every tribe, race. nation and language. Revelation 7:9

The House of Judah now has possession of part of the Land and their complete return will happen with the Return of King Jesus in 2030. That is: 1960 years after their last exile by the Romans in 70AD

So, as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 10:11, what happened before will happen again and Righteous Israelites, who includes all those who love the Lord and keep His commandments: Christians from every race, nation and language. Isaiah 56:1-8, Ephesians 2:1-22, Galatians 3:26-29, will soon gather and settle in all of the holy Land, Ezekiel 20:34-38, from the Nile to the Euphrates, thus fulfilling God’s promises to the Patriarchs. Psalms 105:7-11, Isaiah 26:1-2

When they build the new Temple, the Ark of the Covenant will be recovered from its hiding place and the Shekinah glory will come back into the Holy of Holies so in the same manner as before, the Lord ‘will dwell among His people’. Ezekiel 43:1-4, Isaiah 12:6

Israel’s new leaders, Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11, will see Him, Isaiah 24:23 and ‘His glory will be revealed to all believers’. 2 Thess. 1:10, Isaiah 60:1, Isaiah 30:20, Hebrews 8:11, Ezekiel 39:27-29 ‘They will exemplify His holiness for all to see’.

When Jesus said: ‘I will be with you always, to the close of the age’, Matthew 28:20 He meant it spiritually and in the next age of the Millennium, He will once again be on earth physically.

After the many more prophesied events that will take place until the end of this age, the Lord Jesus will Return for His Millennial reign.

‘Blessed be He who comes in the Name of the Lord’, will be the shout of the Christian Israelites in Jerusalem, as all the world sees Jesus Return on the clouds.

 

[Leaf473]

The true Israelites of God are the faithful Christian peoples, now scattered around the world.
But after the Sixth Seal; the Lords great Day of vengeance and wrath, they will gather into all of the Holy Land, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 11:11-12, +. as plainly seen by John in Revelation 7:9. Proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, where the 'beast' will conquer them.

Is Ezekiel 37 talking about the true Israel of God, or Israel according to the flesh? It looks to me like it's talking about "For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions.’ Then take another stick, and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions"... So, Israel according to the flesh

Do you read it differently?

 

[keras]

Is Ezekiel 37 talking about the true Israel of God, or Israel according to the flesh? It looks to me like it's talking about "For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions.’ Then take another stick, and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions"... So, Israel according to the flesh

Do you read it differently?

When Bible Prophecy uses the ancient names of Israel and Judah, etc, we need to realize they no longer exist. The math of genetic dispersion proves that everyone living today, has some of Abrahams genes.
The prime example is the Jewish State of Israel, their claim to be the House of Judah, has no proof of any kind. In fact the historical record tells us the Ashkenazi Jews descended from the Kazak peoples and the Sephardim Jews, from the Edomites. [What King Herod was]
That nation is not; in any way, the People of God.

Those ancient names do have a meaning, Israel for example means an Overcomer for God and we see how each of the seven Church's in Revelation 2 & 3, have Overcomers in them. Each of the twelve sons of Jacob were named according to their characteristics and the Christian peoples will be divided accordingly, 12 'types' of the people, when they form the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, in all of the Holy Land. As per Revelation 7:1-14

God does have a secret. but one which can only be discerned by those without an agenda, such as a Jewish redemption, made to suit the false 'rapture to heaven' theory.
God knows where the lost tribes of Israel, the ten Northern tribes; are located today. Amos 9:9 THEY are the People whom God sent Jesus to save; Matthew 15:24 So it has to be those who have accepted the Salvation Jesus offered, who are the Israelites of God, the ones who produce the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43
Paul states it - we Christians are the true Israelites of God. Galatians 6:14-16