The Time We Live In : Gog and Magog

[Douggg]

Events of the day of Christ, occurring after the falling away.

The Thessalonian Church was enlightened by Paul not to anticipate them until after the falling away.

Thus not anytime, until after the falling away.

And thus not "has always been".

Day of Christ is same as saying Day of the Lord. .

The Day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night as said in 1Thessalonians5, when the time of God's wrath will be poured out. In 1Thessalonians5:9-11 is the rapture, not to have to go through that time, which corresponds to what Jesus said in Luke 21:34-36.

 

[Douggg]

The falling away was Constantine turning the government into Christianity. That happened already. I am sure the church has fallen away many times since then.

The falling away in 2Thessalonians2:3 does not happen until the person who the Jews will think is the messiah is anointed the King of Israel (coming in his own name). Many in Christianity at that time will think the Jews were right all along, and will depart believing in Jesus as the messiah.

The person will be anointed the king of Israel following Gog/Magog. At that time is when the falling away (from believing in Jesus) in Christianity will take place.

After 3 years, thereabouts, the person betrays the Jews, by going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood - revealing himself as the man of sin and not the messiah after all.

 

[jgr]

Day of Christ is same as saying Day of the Lord. .

The Day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night as said in 1Thessalonians5, when the time of God's wrath will be poured out. In 1Thessalonians5:9-11 is the rapture, not to have to go through that time, which corresponds to what Jesus said in Luke 21:34-36.

Paul said that the day of Christ/the Lord would not occur until after the falling away. That is, he knew that the day of Christ/the Lord would not occur anytime before the falling away.

The falling away had not yet occurred when he spoke, and would not begin to occur for more than two centuries.

So the Thessalonians did not continue to believe that the day of Christ/the Lord would occur anytime before the falling away.

 

[jgr]

The falling away was Constantine turning the government into Christianity. That happened already. I am sure the church has fallen away many times since then.

It had not happened when Paul spoke, and did not begin to happen for more than two centuries.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Dispensationalism was being written about in the 1600s:

1) 1687 - The Divine Economy, discusses seven dispensations.

In which Pierre Poiret discusses the apocalyptic visions and teachings of Flemish mystic and--from what I can tell--heretic, Antoinette Bourignon. Who believed and taught that the end was nigh, and that all churches were wrong, and she had been tasked by God to bring together all "true" Christians to follow her.

As for what the book actually says about "dispensations" I can't comment, as the only online copy I can find is the 3rd volume on Google Books.

2) 1699 - A Compleat History or Survey of all the Dispensations and Methods of Religion

In which John Edwards describes a general progression of revelation ultimately culminating in the coming of Christ and the sending forth of the Gospel. This isn't Dispensationalism as understood by Dispensationalists.

I was able to largely skim through portions of it as it was available to read for free here.

3) 1674-1748 writings by Isaac Watts on dispensational distinctives

Which writings?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Douggg]

Paul said that the day of Christ/the Lord would not occur anytime until after the falling away.

I don't disagree with that statement.

The falling away had not yet occurred when he spoke, and would not begin to occur for more than two centuries.

The falling away is a pre-requirement for the beginning of the Day of Lord. It is not a pre-requirement for the rapture, though.

The rapture can take place anytime before the Day of the Lord begins.

That has always been the case.
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Now if your argument were that there is no mandatory requirement rapture the "must" take place before the 7 year 70th week begins (in the pre-trib definition of the 7 years as being "the trib" ), I could agree with that.

What the bible indicates though is the rapture "could" take place anytime - before the Day of the Lord begins.

Anytime would include right this very second. Which since the seven years have not begun yet - and by how the pre-trib view defines itself - then pre-trib could be right.

However, if the 7 years begin and the rapture has not taken place, then the pre-trib view (pre 7 years) will have been proven wrong - but we are not at that stage yet.

Anytime rapture view takes into account all possibilities - only that it has to be before the Antichrist goes into the temple sits, claims to have achieved God hood (which triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord).
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What I would like to see is all the arguments generated over the traditional rapture timing views end - and the body of Christ have some unity in looking for the rapture to escape the time when the wrath of God is poured out when the Day of the Lord begins.

 

[jgr]

The falling away is a pre-requirement for the beginning of the Day of Lord. It is not a pre-requirement for the rapture, though.

The rapture can take place anytime before the Day of the Lord begins.

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Are you saying that our gathering together unto him, which Paul identifies as the day of Christ, is not what you call the rapture?

 

[Douggg]

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Are you saying that our gathering together unto him, which Paul identifies as the day of Christ, is not what you call the rapture?

Paul was just saying that the rapture had not taken place yet. Neither had the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

 

[jgr]

Paul was just saying that the rapture had not taken place yet. Neither had the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

The "day of the Lord" does not appear in the passage. The "day of Christ" does, and is characterized by "our gathering together unto him", which is what you term the rapture.

So the "day of Christ" is your rapture.

And your rapture does not occur until after the falling away, so your rapture does not occur anytime before the falling away.

Which invalidates your "anytime" presumption.

 

[Douggg]

The "day of the Lord" does not appear in the passage. The "day of Christ" does, and is characterized by "our gathering together unto him", which is what you term the rapture.

So the "day of Christ" is your rapture.

No, the day of Christ is the Day of the Lord.

Our gathering together unto him is the rapture.

 

[Douggg]

And your rapture does not occur until after the falling away, so your rapture does not occur anytime before the falling away.

No, the anytime rapture view is anytime between right now and the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

 

[jgr]

No, the day of Christ is the Day of the Lord.

Our gathering together unto him is the rapture.

Provide a link to any commentary claiming that the day of Christ is not your rapture.

 

[Douggg]

Provide a link to any commentary claiming that the day of Christ is not your rapture.

Read my lips - the day of Christ is not the rapture.

The gathering unto him is the rapture.

 

[jgr]

No, the anytime rapture view is anytime between right now and the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

View attachment 295494

According to this diagram, there should be no Christians arriving at the day of Christ/the Lord, they having been previously raptured.

So how did these Christians arrive at the day of Christ?

Philippians 1
10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.
11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

 

[Douggg]

According to this diagram, there should be no Christians arriving at the day of Christ/the Lord, they having been previously raptured.

So how did these Christians arrive at the day of Christ?

Philippians 1
10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.
11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

It does not say "arriving" at the day of Christ. Obviously the Philippians did not "arrive" at the day of Christ.

Paul was telling them to keep preaching the gospel until the day of Christ (Paul thinking it could possibiy occur in their life time it appears). Which the same message applies to Christians today. Which we are doing, right?

But that does not exclude the rapture taking place at anytime before the Day of the Lord begins.

 

[Dave L]

Dispensationalism was being written about in the 1600s:

1) 1687 - The Divine Economy, discusses seven dispensations.
2) 1699 - A Compleat History or Survey of all the Dispensations and Methods of Religion
3) 1674-1748 writings by Isaac Watts on dispensational distinctives

I heard it began earlier than this. That the Jesuits moulded it into what became Dispensationalism in the 1800s. Protestants believe historically that the Papacy is the Antichrist. So the Jesuits launched "Futurism" to deceive Protestants into thinking the Antichrist won't arrive until well into the future. It worked and vast numbers are now deceived by it. The Church however condemned it as heresy in its Premillennial form stating Amillennialism to be the truth. And lastly by the Council of Ephesus in 431.

 

[jgr]

It does not say "arriving" at the day of Christ. Obviously the Philippians did not "arrive" at the day of Christ.

Paul was telling them to keep preaching the gospel until the day of Christ (Paul thinking it could possibiy occur in their life time it appears). Which the same message applies to Christians today. Which we are doing, right?

But that does not exclude the rapture taking place at anytime before the Day of the Lord begins.

How could they and we keep preaching the gospel until the day of Christ, if they and we are raptured before the day of Christ as you define it?

Obviously Paul's definition of the day of Christ is not the same as yours.

 

[Timtofly]

Anytime would include right this very second. Which since the seven years have not begun yet - and by how the pre-trib view defines itself - then pre-trib could be right.

However, if the 7 years begin and the rapture has not taken place, then the pre-trib view (pre 7 years) will have been proven wrong - but we are not at that stage yet.

Anytime rapture view takes into account all possibilities - only that it has to be before the Antichrist goes into the temple sits, claims to have achieved God hood (which triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord).

Since the 7 years has started, and other than many churches stopped holding meetings almost a year ago in buildings, there has been no AC, and no rapture, many people are wrong on several fronts. The Second Coming is next to happen at any time, because no one can know or pinpoint when it happens. The rapture and completion of the church happens at the Second Coming, and not after Satan's 42 months. Armageddon is a planned event at the end of Satan's 42 months. It can be pinpointed to the day, and hour. Of course no one really wants to do that, because they have to claim it is an unknown. All of the time and the point of Satan being cast out heaven, and when he is allowed to set up kingdom, is based on the 7th Trumpet, and the confirmation of the Covenant for one week. A week of days, not a week of years. The week of years was Christ's baptism and the institution of the physical time of the Covenant on the Cross. The Atonement was a week of days. The week of years was the time Jesus Christ the Lamb was doing an earthly ministry. 3.5 years were already accomplished in the first century. The last 3.5 years will be shortened.

They are getting shorter each day, because they do not stop shorter, but they start at an unknown time and still end at the appropriate date of the 7th Trumpet. Satan's 42 months is a fixed time. If it happens at all. It only happens if the Covenant is confirmed and is not complete. If complete, then the week will not be cut in half and there will be no abomination of desolation.

The church is the key here. The church is the Steward and could reap the golden harvest herself. Now the falling away has to come first, because this means the harvest was not reaped. The church failed. Satan was allowed Stewardship. What ever the church does in the next few months or years will be it.

There is no time frame given for the Trumpets except 5 months. 5 months may be as short as this coming tribulation will be that people claim is post, mid, or pre. Satan's 42 months was never a planned part of the 70 weeks of Daniel. It was never about Satan. It was about the house of Jacob and a temple rebuilt. All accomplished before the baptism of Jesus. The Messiah was the topic and theme of the last week. The week of the Atonement was part of the first half. Satan did not get anything that week. Satan should not get anything the week of the 7th Trumpet.

Why the church is so set on giving it all to Satan is telling that the falling away has always been maintained by the mainstream. Always willing to co-exist with Satan to some degree. Lately always holding their breath waiting for Satan to just take over, so the church can retire.

The church knew about the harlot and the beast of Revelation 17 and 18 since the first century. The prophecy is self fulfilling in the fact that trying or not trying to avoid it will not work. Historically it has not worked. Those who refuse the power of government are just martyred, and those who think they can control the government, learn the hard way "power" cannot be controlled. God proved that by turning the most powerful and first king into a wild beast for an extended period of time to prove otherwise.

Satan and false prophets have been warned about, but the church does not have to give in to Satan to prove some point of prophecy.

 

[Douggg]

How could they and we keep preaching the gospel until the day of Christ, if they and we are raptured before the day of Christ as you define it?

The Philippians of Paul's day are no longer living; they have died in the Lord. The rapture is the transfiguration of the living at the time it takes place.

The Philippians's bodies will be resurrected, at the same time as those who are raptured.

Obviously Paul's definition of the day of Christ is not the same as yours.

Paul indicated that the Day of the Lord would not begin until (1) there is a falling away (2) and the man of sin revealed by the act of going in to the temple, claiming to have achieved God-hood. Neither have taken place yet.

 

[Douggg]

Since the 7 years has started, and other than many churches stopped holding meetings almost a year ago in buildings, there has been no AC, and no rapture, many people are wrong on several fronts.

The 7 years have not started yet.

The 7 years will not start until after the Gog/Magog event. And the confirming of the covenant for 7 years is found in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, what it will be. A big speech from the temple mount by the Antichrist declaring that God has given the land of Israel to the children of Israel as theirs forever, and having the law read to the nation.