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THE TIME IS NEAR! ~ Just as the apostles said it was!

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by parousia70, Mar 1, 2002.

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  1. rollinTHUNDER

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    I do agree that they preached in the whole (known) world. But the problem with that is, unless the disciples lived for the whole 2000 years, it would be impossible for them to preach to all the world. So Jesus could have easily let them believe that the end was coming in their time. You could even make the case that it was part of His plan. He didn't always tell everything. Sometimes He would heal someone, and then tell them not to tell anyone. I believe that He very well could have wanted them to believe in the urgency of His message. When He was asked - Was John the Baptist Elijah who would come before Him, just look at His answer. Matt.11: 14-15 - "And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come." TAKE NOTE- this next verse is calling for wisdom, and it is also found in the book of Revelation. (15)He who has ears, let him hear." WOW-that is an eye opener.
    But they didn't accept it, they rejected it (Messiah). But John denied that he was the prophet, so why would Jesus say "if you are willing to accept it"?? This sure looks like an escape route to me. Verse 15 is a MAJOR CLUE-HELLO! ! ! That is a big "IF".

    And I found another instance where Jesus didn't tell all that He planned, and it is kinda slick, but He didn't lie. But I will have to do that one later, I'm out of time for now, See ya.
     
  2. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Hi Thunder, Thanks for the PM, I appriciate your kind words!!
    Thunder, Please bear with me here, this is an excellent point you have made and is VERY inportant to the discussion at hand,therefore, it requires a VERY thorough response. I'll break it into 2 posts, but PLEASE take the time to read them before you respond.

    From what you have said, you believe the "present age" of scripture is the Christian age.

    I believe that there are serious exegetical problems with making the "present age" of scripture the Christian age. The difficulties of such a view only multiply when the "age to come" is viewed as a yet future entrance into eternity at an alleged future return of Christ.

    In the Galatian letter, Paul, speaking of Christ writes, "Who gave himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from "this present evil age", according to the will of our God and Father" (Galatians 1:4).
    Of primary importance is the fact that Christ died for "our" [the Jews] sins. Secondly, he died to deliver the saints from the "present age." Third, the apostle describes the present age as "evil."

    First, if the "present age" is the Christian age as you assert, then it is the age ushered in by Christ's death and resurrection. The present age would find its beginning on Pentecost and belong to the gospel dispensation. It is here that we must raise the first red flag. If the present age is the Christian age, then Christ died to deliver the saints from the age which he came to establish.

    Further, this means that the age which Christ came to establish (the Christian age) was no more effective than the Jewish age in which men previously lived. Consider this. Paul writes, "Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not. For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law" (Galatians 3:21). So, life could not be achieved in the Jewish age, hence the need to deliver the Jews from it (Romans 7:6).

    However, since it is argued by some that life is not achieved in the Christian age, then Paul should likewise have written the following: Is the gospel then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a gospel given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the gospel. According you THUNDER, they were in the gospel age. According to Paul, they were yet through the Spirit eagerly awaiting the hope of righteousness (Galatians 5:5). Therefore, there was no advantage of the gospel (Christian age) over the law with respect to achieving the hope of life/righteousness.

    Secondly, it means that Christ died to deliver the church from an age which did not then exist at the time of his death. As a matter of fact, not even the church existed. Christ had to die to bring the church into existence. Then he had to create an age in which to place the church so he could immediately begin to deliver them out of it! He allegedly takes them out of the Jewish age at his death, only to place them in an age from which they yet must be delivered.

    A further complication to this matter is the fact that Christ taught through inspiration that their deliverance from the "present age" was "at hand" and "coming in a little while" (James 5:7-9; Hebrews 10:37). This must be the case since deliverance from the age is accomplished at the return of Christ. However since the traditionalist futuristic viewpoint alleges that these time statements are "elastic" and "relative," then Christ was merely "pulling their leg" with those "I come quickly" rubberband time statements. Generations have come and gone and are still going and going like the Duracell battery and yet there is no deliverance from the "present evil age."

    A more ridiculous picture of scripture trifling and chicanery could not be made of the redemptive-historic, glorious work of Christ. Consider this scenario. A bodyshop repairman offers to replace your broken windshield. The only problem is that the windshield is not broken. Advising the repairman of this fact, he then responds by smashing the windshield with a hammer and saying, "It is now"!

    This corresponds somewhat with the plight of the new covenant saints. Christ died, per the traditionalists, and ended the law (Jewish age) at the cross. Therefore, on their terms, no one was in it. According to Galatians, Christ also died to deliver them from the present evil age, an age which he had to create, place the saints into, then like the repairman above, offer to deliver them out of it. Would it not have been easier for the repairman never to have broken the windshield? Would it also not have been easier for Christ never to have made an age from which the saints immediately needed deliverance?

    Continued next post........
     
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    A third problem in making the "present age" the Christian age, is the absurdity it makes of the defection of Demas. "For Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present age, and has departed for Thessalonica-Crescens for Galatia, Titus for Dalmatia," (2 Timothy 4:10). What was so evil about the "present age" (if in fact it is the Christian age) that loving it can be termed as apostasy? Is Christ the minister of Sin? God Forbid! If Demas forsook Paul for the present age (alleged Christian age) then in what age did that leave Paul? Not the Jewish age if it passed away at the cross. Not the "age to come," since it is argued to be yet future.

    Can we attribute the present age to which Demas apostatized as the age which Christ came to establish? Does not this passage show clearly that the gospel which Paul held firmly till his death (2 Timothy 4:6-8) did not belong to the "present age" of scripture? What a bind we all are in today if loving the Christian age is apostasy.

    Fourth, if the "present age" is the gospel dispensation, then the apostles did not speak the wisdom that belonged to the gospel age. "However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing" (1 Corinthians 2:6). Not only could they not speak the wisdom of this age, but God apparently gave the authority to the gospel age to some other than the apostles.

    Who are these "rulers" of "this age"? Paul clearly identifies them as those who in ignorance crucified the Lord of glory. Compare this with Peter's words in Acts. "Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers" (Acts 3:17). See also v.14. Peter calls those who crucified the Lord of glory his Jewish brethren and their rulers. These are the Jews. The rulers were none other than the chief priests, elders, and sanhedrin council. Did Christ die to deliver the Jews from the law, only to create a new age subjecting it to the law-zealous rulers of the old age? Perhaps now we can understand why Judaism was such a problem in the church. God cut off the Jewish age at the cross only to make the Jewish rulers who crucified Christ the rulers of the gospel age.

    Now how can any man believe that these Jewish rulers who crucified Christ were rulers of the Christian age? They were yet ruling the age at the time of Paul's writing for he says they were coming to nothing. I suppose they would come to nothing when their age no longer existed. They would no longer have any realm in which to rule. If the Jewish age ended at the cross, why are they yet ruling the age?

    Apparently there was quite a conflict, for Paul and the church wrestled with these rulers. "For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places" (Ephesians 6:12). "This age" is characterized as both "evil" and "darkness." That does not sound like the age Christ came to establish. Such is the self-contradictory and unwarranted consequences of making the "present age" of scripture the Christian age.

    Thanks for hearing me out THUNDER, I have more if you are interested, but I am aware of your aversion to my lenghty posts, and thus am already at risk of you ignoring these two, so I'll hold off for now.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  4. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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  5. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Okay- back to work here. The age of grace is more effective than the age of the law. Under the law, men could receive forgiveness through the passover, but their forgiveness would only last for one year. The next year they would have to repeat the process of the passover. Not so with the age of grace, or the church age or what have you. Gods lamb brought more than just forgiveness. Jesus brought salvation and a forgiveness that would last for more than just a year. This age offers all who will receive Him, eternal forgiveness and eternal life. And also, He who overcomes this world, will also become the sons and daughters of God. Satan is like a roaring lion, and a mighty foe, BUT - Greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world. As long as we have Jesus, the devil has no power over us, but without Jesus, they are we are already dead. It is also important to remember, that a christian will not taste death. We have already been crucified with Christ.

    Second paragraph. I already answered most of this in the paragraph before, except I would add that we have been declaired righteous by the blood of the lamb. Our sins have been washed in the blood, and Jesus is our righteousness. We are not saved by works, or anything we did, but rather, we have put out hope and faith in what Christ did for us. What can the devil say against us, nothing?? Would he argue that the rules aren't fair?? No matter, he was defeated at the cross! ! AMEN! ! So Jesus blood covers our sins. Now on to the next post.
     
  6. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Yes - Christ did die for the Church that had not before exsisted. Remember, He came to die. And when He rose, the devil was at that very point "defeated". Christ defeated death. And He set his captive people free. The only that that He required, was that we believe, and live by faith. Now, after He rose from the dead, He was seen by men. He stayed with them a little longer, I think 40 days. He then taught the disciples more, and what they were to do. This work was started by Christ, but He told them and us as believers to finish His work. He is doing the work through us now. We are the body of Christ.

    Next paragraph, I believe I have also covered this, but would add: Death has already been swallowed up in victory, at the cross. We have already received salvation, and our eternity began the moment we became "born again". At that time, we became citizens of heaven, but we still must live by faith and complete His work. We are children of the promise, and our hope is in Him. He will at the appointed time, come and receive us to Himself, that where He is, we may be also.

    About the bodyshop guy. We need to remember that Adam broke the covenant, but God never broke His. Our bodies are dying, but Christ promised new incorruptible bodies that will never die. Our flesh can not enter heaven, so they will be changed when He calls us up to meet Him. At that time, our bodies will be lacking nothing, they will be perfect and last forever. These bodies will not have flesh and blood, and they will be able to go through walls, like a ghost. If we die now, or before He comes for us, then our spirit goes to be with Him. But our new bodies will have to wait until the appointed time (rapture). And this last generation will not see death at all, they will just be caught up and suddenly changed into their new bodies.

    And finally the last of your first post - SHEW.
    So Christ went to prepair a place for us, but He is also building His church, and gathering His sheep.All of the ages have been evil up to this present one. God wanted us to remember His Sabbath, or 7th day. Remember, a thousand years are only a day to God. A day of rest. God said we would one day enter His rest. That is the Sabbath day that He wanted us to remember. Man has ruled for about 6 thousand years, BUT Jesus is going to rule the 7th, and we will reign with Him. We are currently at the end of the 6000 years. But our calendars are off, and no one knows when exactly creation started, but God does. It appears by our calendar, that we have just ran into the 7th thousand year period, but no one really knows what time it is, only God. There is no doubt in my mind that we are that last generation, because we are seeing all the signs that Jesus told us to watch for. Thats all for your first thread, and I will try to tackle the rest, tomorrow, but it too will be a busy day. See ya tomorrow.
     
  7. rollinTHUNDER

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    Hello again parousia,
    I hope I am explaining my side okay, that has not ever been one of my strengths, but then again, I have never been a quitter, and especially when it comes to fighting the good fight (not meaning you brother). So back to work now.

    1st paragraph. Both of my versions say that Demas turned back for the world. So he left the faith, and went back for the world. We are told not to love the world, or anything in the world. We were to be holy, living in Christ, and not in the evil world that He called us out of. The world hates Jesus, why?? Because it is under the authority of the prince of darkness (satan), at the present time. read John 15:18-19. So Christ is not a minister of sin, but rather called us away from the cares of this world. Demas and Paul, and everyone in the new testament for that matter, are still in the age of grace and will be until Christ takes us out via the rapture, or the passing of life to everlasting life (physical death).

    I answered that next paragraph above, so on to the next post.
     
  8. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Now, sinse Satan is still roaming around like a roaring lion, he is the prince of darkness. To answer this, I take you to Eph.6:12 - "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly relms". This is what we must overcome.

    Next paragraph. The Jews have the same choice that we have, the question is, do they take Jesus as savior and live, or not and die in judgment. The nation of Israel is lost, but many within her are coming to the truth. And this will finish the post: There is Christs Kingdom still to come. That is where He will have the angel put chains on Satan at His second coming. Then He will judge the world, and take possession of the world physically and litterally, and all those who overcame the world will rule and reign with Him. This concludes all that you asked, I think. I hope I didn't forget anything. Please keep your posts shorter.
     
  9. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Great Job Thunder!
    Thanks for taking the time.
    I promise to keep it short from now on!
    2Ti 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world. (KJV)

    "World" in this instance, as in many others in the KJV, is translated (incorrectly) from the Greek "Aion", Strongs #165, which means "age or period of time". It does not mean Planet.

    I do not know what translations you are using, but the NKJV and YLT, among others, correct this KJV error.

    So, that being established as true, Again I'll ask, What is so bad about loving the Christian age that it is deemed "apostasy"?, and, If Demas left Paul for the Christian Age, What age did that leave Paul in?

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  10. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hey thanks parousia,
    That is much shorter, and much better. I actually like to use three versions. They are KJV, NIV, and the NAS, but I mostly use the KJV and NIV. But not necessarily in that order. I believe that the word "world" is correct, because : when someone turns away from the faith, then they are turning back to the world, where God called us out of the world. Christians also use the term very frequently, as saying that someone is very "worldly". 1 John 5:5 - "Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God." 1 John 4:4-5 - "You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. (5)- They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them." 1 John 2:16 - "For everything in the world--the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does--comes not from the Father but from the world." And there are many, many more, but for the sake of a short post, I'll stop there.

    I can't even make any sense out of it any other way. How can someone turn back for an age?? If he turned back from Paul, then it appears that he turned away from the sound doctrines of Christs gospel. It doesn't say that he turned from Paul for Judaism. I have never heard of someone turning to an age, or for an age. So, I would think that "world is much more fitting. And also, I have never found the KJV to be in err. In fact, when I find an error in another bible, I always take it to the original KJV. It is the only one that I have not found a translation to be questionable. Now with that said, what is your point?? I failed to make the connection.

    What is wrong with loving this christian age?? Nothing if you enjoy doing spiritual battle on a daily basis. Me personally, and most christians that I have ever talked to about it, we all can't wait for the day when the devil and his demons are locked away in the bottomless pit for a thousand years. And besides that, I can't wait to see my Lord and Savior face to face. That my friend is every christians hope. Not to mention, It will be nice not to have to get up and go to work for this world every day, for the children of the promise will enter into Gods rest. I think this would be a great place to stop. Until next time my friend, See ya! ! !
     
  11. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Well, I suppose you could think that if you choose, But the fact remains that "aion" is the word Paul used, which means "age or period of time" It can not and does not ever mean "planet", or earth or physical creation.

    However, Perhaps you hold the 17th century English KVJ as authoratative OVER & ABOVE the original Greek. If that is so, we might as well move on to a different topic.

    Quickly, you did mention that Demas turned from the sound doctorines of the Gospel. I agree, which fits perfectly for Paul said that He did not speak the wisdom of "this age". Demas loved the present age more than the gospel, which is an oxymoron if the "present age" IS the "Gospel Age"

    I maintain that scripture supports my belief that The "present age" mentioned in scripture is the Jewish Age which was still in existance when Paul wrote but ended with the destruction of Temple Judiasm in 70AD.

    Finally, Since you maintain that the Jewish Old Covenant age ended at the cross, what do you do with Hebrews 8:13?
    (I'll use the KJV since it's your fav!)
    "13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

    THUNDER, If the OC and it's age vanished away at the cross, why does the writer of Hebrews, decades after the cross, say that as of that time, it was still in the process of decaying and had not yet vanished?

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  12. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    hello parousia,
    I still don't understand your reason for debating this age/world thing. Was there something that you could prove from it?? I still think that it makes more sense as world, not to keep you from your opinion or anything. To me, it is saying that "Demas loved the world more than the way, the truth and the life". Like the rich man loved his money more than he wanted to follow Jesus. Let me give you one more verse, to show you what I mean. 1 John 2:15 - "Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him." One can not reject an age, but he can reject salvation, which is the clear meaning that I understand here.

    I also think you misunderstood me about the ages. Jesus said that He did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill the law. I did not mean that the jews would give up their beliefs in the law. What I meant was, that Jesus was bringing it to a close. In other words, everyone that received salvation entered into a new age of grace, and anyone that refused salvation did not enter the new age of grace. Also, those that chose to stay under the law, did so in vain. It would be possible for someone today to be under the law if they chose to be, but they would be lost, because God no longer honors that covenant. Any way you look at it, it appears that Demas was rejecting the truth.

    So, the Jews may have still highly favored the law, but God was finished with it. I believe the Jews were still sacrificing in AD 70, but God was not honoring it, because He sent His Son and they rejected Him. It was all in vain.

    Now about the versions of bibles. I don't think that the KJV is better than the original greek. If I spoke greek, I would definately use the greek, and it would be better and probably more accurate. But, I speak english, and this is the language that God wanted me to speak. I also believe that it was translated correctly though. I just believe that when there is a problem with a scripture, that the original english (KJV) is my preference to settle it. I refuse to go to some language that I can't speak or understand. I don't know how it works. I know that in some languages, the meanings change, depending on how they use a word. So, if someone was to put the greek scripture in front of me, it would be totally useless, because I know nothing about it. Maybe we should use Japanese-LOL. Just kiddin' brother. See ya next time around.
     
  13. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello parousia,
    Don't forget about your own thread here. We have at least two weeks worth of stuff to talk about here. If you don't care to talk about my last post, then we could move on to the next subject. Show me where else that I am wrong. I'll be waiting. See ya friend. I'll be back on, probably tonight.
     
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