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THE TIME IS NEAR! ~ Just as the apostles said it was!

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by parousia70, Mar 1, 2002.

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  1. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    In Luke 21, Jesus warned His disciples: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and 'THE TIME IS NEAR.' DO NOT FOLLOW THEM. When you hear of wars and revolutions, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away."

    Whoa! :confused: Jesus just told the apostles NOT to follow anyone that says "The time is near" until the signs of the end come - the famines, pestilences, earthquakes, persecutions by governments, etc. So, if Jesus was referring to some time period more than 1950 years down the road, then all of the disciples who claimed the time WAS near should NOT be followed, according to Christ.

    That would make John, Peter, James, & Paul FALSE TEACHERS and FALSE PROPHETS according to today's Futurist Theology because they DID say the time was near in their epistles found in the New Testament!!!!


    And He said, "See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'THE TIME IS NEAR.' Do not go after them (NASB - Luke 21:8)

    for many shall come in my name, saying -- I am [he], and THE TIME HATH COME NIGH; go not on then after them; (YLT - Luke 21:8)


    :idea: I think it is very clear from the lips of Jesus here that the statement "the time hath come nigh" is a sign of false brothers as much as saying "I am he." And so we see how this makes false brothers out of the apostles (by futurist standards), for the apostles said exactly this:


    PETER:
    "But the end of all things IS AT HAND" (1 Peter 4:7)


    PAUL:
    "But I say this, my brothers, THE TIME IS SHORT; and from now it will be wise for those who have wives to be as if they had them not " (1 Cor 7:29)

    "for yet A VERY VERY LITTLE [WHILE], He who is coming will come, and will not tarry" (Hebrews 10:37)

    "Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. The night is almost gone, AND THE DAY IS NEAR." (Rom 13:11-12)


    JOHN
    "Dear children, THE LAST HOUR IS COME; and as you once heard that there was to be an anti-Christ, so even now many anti-Christs have appeared. By this we know that THE LAST HOUR IS COME." (1 John 2:18)

    "This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things WHICH MUST HAPPEN SOON ... Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written in it, FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND." ( Revelation 1:1,3)



    Futurists, of course, don't take any of the apostles' time statments LITERALLY. Yet Jesus said that those who would say 'THE TIME IS NEAR' were not to be followed by the apostles. The only ones who had the authority to determine the true time of the end of the age was the apostles -- and they all declared 'THE TIME IS NEAR.' Since Jesus takes the statement 'THE TIME IS NEAR' to be a LITERAL declaration that the endtime has come, then futurists cannot take allegorically all the apostles statements saying 'THE TIME IS NEAR'. This presents two dilemmas for futurists:

    (1) If the apostles said 'THE TIME IS NEAR' when the time was not yet even close, then they were the very false ones specified by Luke 21:8

    (2) If the apostles said 'THE TIME IS NEAR," and Jesus takes that statement to mean literally that the endtime has come, then futurists must ALSO take such statements to mean the time has indeed come and must believe the apostles on the issue of TIME or else declare them false prophets. The option of allegorizing time away is not permitted by Luke 21:8, for Jesus takes such statements to mean the end has indeed come.


    If it should be said that Christ did not return in that generation as he and all the apostles unanimously taught, then they are false prophets and Christianity is based upon false teachers. If one cannot trust the "WHEN" passages spoken by Christ and the apostles (who were unanimous that Jesus would return in the Father's glory in their generation), then one cannot trust ANY passages on bible prophecy.

    Fortunately, God keeps his word -- the destruction of the Nation, Jerusalem, and Temple is the subject of the Olivet Discourse. Jesus returned WHEN and HOW he said. :clap:


    Jesus himself taught his return would be in the lifetimes of the apostles, and they in turn taught this to others as ESSENTIAL. Jesus even blesses the preterist understanding of the statement "THE TIME IS NEAR" (Luke 21:8), which Jesus takes to be a LITERAL announcement of the end. Well, we know the Apostles said this exact thing, so they MUST have been right or been in error.

    Jesus said his apostles would see the Olivet signs come to pass, and would see them in THEIR generation:

    Matthew 24:33-34
    So, YOU too [the apostles], when YOU [the apostles] see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say TO YOU [the apostles] this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.


    Jesus is a false prophet if futurism is right.
    Futurism is error, and Jesus is a true prophet. :angel:
     
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  2. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    >>2 Peter 3:16
    As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

    You are twisting and perverting scripture and Peter warns us that results in "destruction".
     
  3. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

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    Holy COW!!!!!!! I don't believe it!!!!!!
    Your a prophet, and don't know it!!!!!

    Nothing else to say...............

    Patrick
     
  4. soulsisterclaire

    soulsisterclaire JESUS DIED FOR YOU & ME

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    Yes, be careful please. God also said:

    2 Peter 3:8
    But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
     
  5. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

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    I think you are reading too much into that one sentence; the time has always been near. Like sister said; do not be ignorant of this one thing; that a day to the Lord is a thousand years, and a thousand years is a day. He is not slack in keeping his promise, as some count slackness, but is desirious that all should come to repentance and none should perish.
    The bible is the complete truth, given to us by the word of God. There are no false teachings about Jesus from the disciples. He told them what to write; and what to do. Feed my sheep, he said. he was right there with them; up until and after the day he died. So thats not even questionable.
     
  6. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    The Biblical evidence is inerrant.
    Every time God puts a time limit on the fulfillment of a prophesy, It is given and understood by how time relates to MAN, and not how time relates to God.
    Every time, Without fail, ALWAYS.

    70 years of Babylonian captivity = 70 human years
    40 days & nights of Rain = 40 human days & nights
    Jesus rose on the 3rd human day after he was crucified

    The list goes on and on and on.

    Should 2 Peter 3:8 be used as a prophetic time calculator?
    NO, because the Biblical record of prophetic fulfillment proves that God uses HUMAN understanding of Time EVERY SINGLE TIME He puts a time limit on a prophesy. ALWAYS.

    Futurism says that "when God says something is near, he really means far in human understanding"

    Does scripture support such a claim?

    In all Biblical record of fulfilled prohesies with time limits attached, every part of the prophecies are fulfilled. There was not one part left unfulfilled. They were all fulfilled how and WHEN God said He would fulfill them. This should show us the importance God places on His word. Not only on the how part of His word, but the when part of it as well. God stated that when He speaks something, He will bring it to pass. Not maybe. Not sometime down the road. But, just like we saw, every part of the prophecy, i.e., the "how," the "why," and the "WHEN," it will all be fulfilled. God declared that His word "shall not return to [Him] "empty."(Isaiah 55:10-11) If a prophecy is not fulfilled WHEN God said He would fulfill it, then it would return to Him empty. The timing of the prophecy is just as important as the events of the prophecy. Think about that for a moment. What purpose would it serve if God gave a specific prophecy of judgment to a wicked nation, telling them that He would fulfill it within a specific time frame, and warned those people of the coming judgment, if the time passages (and the whole prophecy itself for that matter) were actually for some other generation of people? What purpose would the warnings serve the nation to whom it was originally given? To be quite honest, it wouldn’t serve any purpose at all. How would that nation interpret the character and nature of God? That is to say, how would those people view God if He swore that He would judge them at a certain time, and then He didn’t follow through with His judgment? What would they think of God? That He can’t be trusted? That He speaks empty words and threats? That He lied?

    Let’s look at a passage that has tremendous relevance to the subject at hand. In Ezekiel 12:21-28, it is written:

    Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Son of man, what is this proverb you people have concerning the land of Israel, saying, ‘The days are long and every vision fails?’ Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, "I will make this proverb cease so that they will no longer use it as a proverb in Israel." But tell them, "The days a draw near as well as the fulfillment of every vision. For there will no longer be any false vision or flattering divination within the house of Israel. For I the Lord shall speak, and whatever word I speak will be performed. It will no longer be delayed, for in you days, O rebellious house, I shall speak the word and perform it," declares the Lord God.’ " Furthermore, the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Son of man, behold, the house of Israel is saying, ‘The vision that he sees is for many years from now, and he prophesies of times far off.’ Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, "None of My words will be delayed any longer. Whatever word I speak will be performed," ’ " declares the Lord God.

    In this passage the nation of Israel said that the time statements of God’s word were irrelevant. This is exactly what the futurist claims about the time statements concerning the return of Christ in the first century. They say, just like Israel, "Those passages were not for the original audience but were ‘for many years from now’ and for ‘times far off.’ " But notice what God thinks about that kind of hermeneutic. God said, "None of My words will be delayed any longer. Whatever word I speak will be performed." He stated that He would say the word and He would perform it. Again, notice the implication of that statement. God Himself fulfills His word. When we try and mis-use 2 Peter 3:8-9 as a formula to interpret prophetic time, i.e., that the imminent time statements in the New Testament concerning Christ’s return in the first century are really "for many years from now," i.e., our time, we are saying that God will not fulfill His word! So the real issue here is not just differences of interpretation concerning eschatology, but the nature and character of God. If the futurist is correct in his interpretation and application of 2 Peter 3 (and I believe he is not), then God is made out to be a liar because He will not fulfill His word WHEN He said He would. Plain and simple. If the futurist is correct, then we might as well be atheists because God Himself cannot even be trusted, and then we are lost. Why? Because, if God is dishonest concerning when He would fulfill His word, how do we know He was honest concerning the doctrines of Grace? Or anything else for that matter? It’s simple. We don’t. So, again, this is much more than just a difference of interpretation. Our salvation depends on God keeping every aspect of His word. Including when He was to fulfill it.

    Lastly, Lets look at what God calls a "Long Time"
    Numbers 24:17
    "17 "I see Him, but not now; I behold Him, but NOT NEAR; A Star shall come out of Jacob; A Scepter shall rise out of Israel, And batter the brow of Moab, And destroy all the sons of tumult."

    1t's about 1500 years from the above prophesy to Jesus first advent. God calls 1500 years "NOT NEAR".

    If God calls 1500 years "NOT NEAR" but 2000+ years "NEAR", then neither of those time statements can mean anything, in fact, if God is so flippent concerning "time" in His Prophesies, then no "God ordained time limit" placed on a prophesy can be trusted to be accurate in Human understanding.
    Thankfully, the Biblical record proves otherwise. It proves beyond any doubt that God can, and does, tell time correctly, in human understanding, without exception.

    70 years = 70 years
    40 days & nights = 40 days & nights
    7 days = 7 days
    tomorrow = tomorrow
    soon = soon, shortly = shortly, near = near, without delay = without delay.

    Gods word is true, the How, the why and the WHEN.
    It ALL can be trusted. :clap:
     
  7. Josiah

    Josiah Super suction ears away!

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    So, what are you saying?
     
  8. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello parousia70,
    I think that most on this forum have a hard time understanding what you mean. I am still not sure myself. Are you saying that there is no prophecies that will get fulfilled way into the future??
     
  9. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Also, it appears that you are saying that many of Jesus disciples were false teachers. This is very dangerous thinking. That would mean that Jesus was the head of a cult, if it were true. You can be sure that Jesus was God in the flesh. He picked His disciples Himself, and He knew His plan and purpose for each one of them. By Jesus' own words, one of them was a devil. And He told Judas to do what he was going to do quickly. It was almost like Jesus was telling him to hurry up. Why?? Because He was the lamb of God, and the Passover was rapidly approaching. If He would have missed it, the whole plan would have been messed up. Pray for understanding brother, because you will be judged for your words.
     
  10. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Exactly the opposite.
    I am claiming That Jesus and All His disciples were 100% true and correct teachers.

    EXACTLY MY POINT!!

    If you take LITERALLY Christs declaration that the passover was coming " quickly, shortly, near, soon to come, etc..." (as I do) why then, do you NOT take those same statements just as literally when Jesus and the apostles applied them to the 2nd coming?

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  11. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Not at all.
    Prophesy continues to unfold every day
    What I am saying, however, is that all ESCHATOLOGY has been completely fulfilled for almost 2000 years.
    The scriptural "Last days" are behind us.
    We today are living "Beyond the end times"

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  12. MatthewDiscipleofGod

    MatthewDiscipleofGod Senior Veteran

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    parousia70,

    You say "We today are living "Beyond the end times" "
    Are you saying we are beyond what's said in Revelations? That wouldn't be impossible according to what's written there.
     
  13. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Project 86, you are absolutely correct.
    That "wouldn't be imposible" at all. :D

    Revelation 1:1-3
    "1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which MUST SHORTLY TAKE PLACE. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.
    3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for THE TIME IS NEAR.

    See my posts above for the Biblical precident I use to take LITERALLY, Jesus Statements that ALL of the Events in the Book of Revelation, were to "shortly take place" and "The time was Near" over 1900 years ago.

    To say that this This decleration By Jesus of Soonness, nearness, & immediacy of ALL events in Revelation means 2000+ years, is twisting scripture beyond all recognition, and in my opinion, is calling Jesus a Liar.

    I believe He told the Truth.
    YBIC,
    P70
     
  14. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

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    The book of Revelation hasn't been fufilled yet, and if anyone believes that we have gone past the "end of the world" they are being sorely misguided.
    In the New Testiment the disciples question Jesus about the end of time, what the signs would be and he explains this to them. I reccomend anyone who has doubts on this matter to read each chapter (around 22) of the bible, and take that as being thr truth of this matter.
    The prophets of the old testiment tell us that the end will come as fire and darkness; Jesus will return with a great wrath. We are told to watch for the signs, we are warned not to be caught up in the cares of this life; and have lax thinking that tommorw will surely come; but to pray that we will be counted worthy to escape all of these things, "That will quickly come to pass."
    Please, to anyone who is doubtful; don't let yourself be fooled into thinking that this world will continue; that time will just go on and on, because it won't. Accept the comforter which is the holy ghost, and he will give you a clear understanding of the scriptures, what is written, and what is yet to come.
     
  15. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    With all due respect wildfire,
    The Bible says NOTHING about the "end of time"
    It does have much to say about the "time of the end".
    I believe you confuse the two.

    The Bible is adamate that ours is a "world WITHOUT end"

    In view of the fact that God said His creation is "very good," and remembering that God promised to never again curse the ground or destroy mankind as He did in Noah's day, we cannot possibly expect that God will bring a cataclysmic judgment to end the generations of mankind. It should further come as no surprise to find that the Scriptures tell us that the Kingdom, and the generations of man, and the earth itself are all to continue "forever" (Ps. 104:5; 145:13; Eccl. 1:4; Dan. 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21).

    Some will say that if this is the case, if history is to continue indefinitely with the existence of sin and with no "Second Coming" to bring it to a termination, then that must mean that mankind is stuck in a "status quo" cycle of endless, "go-no-where" history. However, to see that history cannot be so characterized in this view, we need only to consider the conquering nature of Christ's Kingdom.

    The Bible describes the Kingdom of Christ on earth as a kingdom that will increase until it covers "the whole earth" "as the waters cover the sea" (Isa. 11:9; Dan 2:35; cf. Matt. 13:33). According to the Scriptures, it will increase on earth until all of God's enemies are "under His feet" (I Cor. 15:25). The Scriptures further say that the Kingdom will bring blessing to "all the families of the earth" (Gen. 12:3; Ps. 22:7); to "all the nations" (Matt. 28:19; Ps. 72:17; Ps. 86:9); to "all men" (Isa. 66:23), even to "the very ends of the earth" (Ps. Ps. 2:8; 22:27; 72:8; Isa. 11:9; Zech. 9:10; Acts 1:8; 13:47).

    For the Church did not stop being the Church after it was established. Rather, it was born conquering, it was established conquering and it forever conquers to the glory of Christ! As the Scriptures teach:

    "May his name endure forever; May his name increase as long as the sun shines...." (Ps. 72:17).

    "There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore...." (Isa. 9:7).

    Yet the futurists ask incredulously, "Toward what is history progressing if sin continues to exist and history is not going to end?"

    The goal is none other than that every man of every nation, through the power of the Gospel, attain unto that for which mankind was created: To love God with all his heart, soul and mind, and his neighbor as himself (Matt. 22:37-39; Mk. 12:30-31; Lk. 10:27-28).

    Christians, like anyone, do not know future events, but we must be fully confident in the fact that whatever the conquering Savior pleases to do, He does, on earth as in heaven (Ps. 135:6). And when we consider the divine eternality of the Church on earth and her progressive divine dominion, we know that her future, and hence the future of humanity, will be filled to overflowing with innumerable blessings which are even now utterly impossible for us to grasp. For what wonders will God work in and through His more-than-conquering Church after 10,000 years of ecclesiastical progress, or after 1,000,000 years of victory? Only God can know (Eccl. 3:11). What we do know is that in Christ Jesus our Creator and our Redeemer, the future of mankind on earth under His dominion will surely be "exceeding abundantly" and incomprehensibly wonderful....

    "Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, unto him be glory in the Church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen" (Eph. 3:20-21). :clap:
     
  16. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

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    No, I'm not confused at all;

    Matthew 24:3 reads;
    And as he (Jesus) sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately; saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    What is difficult to understand about that?

    The chapter continues with the signs, as being compared to labor pains, and the deliverance of Christ.

    Yes, God promised never to again smite the earth with WATER; and the promise of that in the symbol of the rainbow.

    Peter II 3 reads;

    Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts.
    And saying, Where is the promise of his (Jesus) coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.
    For this they willingly are ignorant of; that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
    Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.
    But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same are kept in store, reserved unto FIRE against the day of judgement and perdition of ungody men.
    But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing: that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
    The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    But the day of the Lord will come as a theif in the night: in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, and the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    Seeing then that all of these things shall be DISSOLVED, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being ON FIRE shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

    Matthew 24 warns;
    Hevane and earth shall pass away, but my words will not pass away,
    But as the days of No'-e were, so shall also the comingof the son of man be,
    For as in the days that were before the flood, they were eating and drinking, giving in marriage, until the day that No'-e entered the ark,
    And knew not until the flood came and took them all away; so shall the coming of the son of man be.
     
  17. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Don't make a doctorine based on a 17th century translators error.

    "World" in this verse is translated from the greek word "aion" which means "AGE" not planet.
    The disciples asked about the end of the AGE, not the end of the WORLD.

    Most modern translations correct this KJV Error.
    I recommend "Youngs Literal Translaton" it is a really good word for word from the greek.

    The Bible teaches ours is a world WITHOUT end.
     
  18. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    p70

    In case you hadn't noticed, wildfire used more than one verse, actually quite a few, that directly contradict your teaching. You can't dismiss all those other verses based on a translation error of one word in one verse.

    There won't be any million years of victory. Victory only comes after conflict. There is no victory in peace for there is no strife. I'm expecting that everlasting peace. God has promised, and it shall come to pass.
     
  19. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    We have been in this last hour for almost 2000 years. This last hour is the "Age of Grace". Where the gospel was to be preached to the ends of the earth. Jesus never told the disciples how long this time would be. Out of all the generations that came after Jesus, only one will know that the end is near, and that one would be the generation that sees all the signs happening at the same time. Israel was scattered, but the fig tree (Israel) was one of those signs. We are that generation. The fig tree has budded and grown her leaves.Jesus said that no-one knew that time, not Him, or the angels, but only the Father. I believe we are in the last hour still, and the (hour) means AGE. The age where man can be reconciled back to God, the age of SALVATION.

    If this is the Kingdom of God, then it is no better than the kingdoms of the world, because we still see sickness, disease, sin, murder, greed, lust and the list goes on and on. NO - there is definately a better day coming. A day where there will be no more sickness, or wars. A day when the lion will lay down with the sheep. A day where there is no polution in the world.

    parousia, I would not look forward to the kingdom that you say is already here. And it is false teaching, because if what you say is true, then we could safely abandon our faith, go and be drunkards, commit crimes and the like until we see that man of sin come on the scene, and then we could all of a sudden repent and act like we were good little christians. That theory is from the pit of hell. That is why He gave us the signs, so we could judge the time of the end. He said to watch and wait. What are we watching and waiting for?? Those signs are for the last generation of this age, so they can be ready for the resurrection, the coming of the Bridegroom for His Bride. The end of this age is upon us, and I wouldn't want to miss it for the world.
     
  20. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Willis, In case you hadn't noticed, I provided a plethera of scriptures that state plainly that the "world" was established FOREVER by God, never to be moved.
    Wildfire completely ignored or even attempted to refute them,point by point, so I am a bit weary of refuting those points by wildfire when experience has shown me, they will be brushed off and not addressed..

    If you care to take each scripture I cited and show me why they do not mean what I contend they mean, then maybe I'll be more apt to take the time to address "heavens & earth pasing away" and other points made by wildfire.

    However,Here's a Hint:
    The "new heavens and earth" Peter describes came to replace the "Heavens and earth" God planted AFTER He Parted the sea and Brought the Hebrew people into the wilderness.
    See Isaiah 51:16, and show me how "heavens and earth" in that passage mean "planet and cosmos". They Don't. God Had Created the Planet and cosmos Long before He parted the Sea and brought Israel out of Egypt. Willis, What "heavens and earth" then did God Plant After He Brought them into the wilderness??

    Willis,
    The existence of sin in the universe in no way implies the victory of sin. Nor does the continued existence of sin in the universe at all imply a "stalemate" between righteousness and sin. If it did, then we would be forced to say that God has as of yet won zero decisive victories over sin, since sin still exists. The idea that the mere existence of sin in the universe implies the non-victory of righteousness in the universe is an existential philosophy that devalues all that has thus far been wrought by the cross of Christ.

    It seems that some people will never be satisfied with anything less than a fleshly utopia that is characterized by absolute "behavioral errorlessness" throughout the entire universe (except for in hell). In contrast to this idea of how the universe should be, God says that He created "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" in order "that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy."

    Sin exists, yet God is victorious over sin every day: "Every morning I will destroy all the wicked of the Land, so as to cut off from the city of the Lord all those who do iniquity" (Ps. 101:8).

    A FUTURE EDENIC PARADISE ON EARTH?
    Those that believe the New Jerusalem/New Heavens and Earth AGE is a biological and physical edenic earthly paradise devoid of sinners or need of ongoing healing should pay close attention here:

    Let's look at the last verse of the last vision of the last book in the Bible. It is a sign that depicts the final, full establishment of the "eternal Age." It describes the time in which the saints reign on Earth "forever and ever" (Rev. 22:5). It is the state of things in the "post-millennial," "post-resurrection" Age. In other words, it is a prophecy that goes as far into the future as the Bible ever goes. Rev. 22:14-15 relates the "final state" on Earth, and it explicitly speaks of sinners living on Earth:

    "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying" (Rev. 22:14-15).

    In the same passage, the "Tree of life" is said to yield its fruit every month, and its leaves are "for the healing of the nations." (Rev. 22:2) This teaches us that in the new earth, "the nations" are in need of continual healing "forever and ever" (Rev. 22:5)


    So much for a biological, earthly, edenic paradise devoid of sinners and need of perpetual healing. IMHO, Futurists must recognize the COVENANTAL HEAVENLY sense of apocalyptic passages as clearly taught in the N.T. (and especially Revelation's highly symbolic nature) instead of forcing figurative passages about the New Jerusalem and the New Heavens and Earth to be scientific descriptions of biological, earthly realities. Revelation is a highly symbolic book. Furthermore, its symbols of the New Jerusalem and the post-millennium world contradict countless O.T. passages that also speak of such blessedness. Is there a sea or isn't there a sea? Is there a sun and moon or isn't there a sun or moon? Are there sinners there or aren't there sinners there? Is there a temple there or isn't there a temple there? Are the feasts and sacrifices reinstituted there or not? Are there deaths there or aren't there deaths there? Do the gentiles travel to the city or is the whole planet the city? AND NOT LEAST, Peter says the Day of the Lord/Thief in the Night will REMOVE the Heavens and Earth! Paul says the Day of the Lord/Thief in the Night is the PAROUSIA. Where'd the 1000 years go?

    Countless logical contradictions can be posed to expose the FIGURATIVE nature of St. John's vision. St. John's Revelation fits the contours of ALL the covenantal and political realities that transpired in St. John's day (Rev 1:1, 1:3, 22:6-7, 22:10-11) -- realities that are fulfilled in the Day of Christ at 70AD and the Eternal New Covenant Age/Priesthood.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
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