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THE TIME IS NEAR! ~ Just as the apostles said it was!

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by parousia70, Mar 1, 2002.

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  1. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    Parousia is an amillenneist (did I spell that right?) As he has detailed, a very convincing argument can be made for that viewpoint.

    The theories of the Great Tribulation and the Rapture are relatively new to Christianity. They came about in the mid 1800's or so, and they are most prevalent in the American Protestant churches.

    People have found applicable signs and wonders in every generation, and have been awaiting "The New Kingdom" since Jesus ascended into Heaven.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  2. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    The Bible, and therefore I, claim that the Gosple WAS preached to "all the world" by the 60's AD.

    Colossians 1:5-6 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

    Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

    In Matthew 24:14, the Greek word for preached is kerusso, it is in the future tense. But in Colossians 1:23 the same word kerusso is in the aorist tense (past). Jesus said that it is to be preached and Paul says in AD 62, that it has been preached to every creature. Paul also said that the faith of the Romans was spoken of throughout the whole world.

    Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

    Paul said that the gospel was made known to all nations.

    Romans 16:25-26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;

    Many today say that the gospel has not been preached to all the world and Matthew 24:14 has not yet been fulfilled. The Bible says that all the nations of the world heard the gospel preached before AD 70. Who are you going to believe? To deny that Matthew 24:14 has been fulfilled is to deny the clear statements of God's Holy Word; it is to call God a liar.


    1) Jesus never told the exact time or day, but did say it would come within the disciples generation.

    Mt 16:28 "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

    Mt 10:23 "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come."

    2) Jesus told His disciples, James among them, that He would NOT be "near and at the door" UNTIL they saw the signs.

    James, preaching some 30 odd years later Claimed to his contemporaries that Jesus was at that time in fact "near and at the door". (James 5:8-9)
    Jesus told James He would NOT be "near and at the door" UNTIL James saw the signs.

    Either James SAW the signs or James was wrong.
    There is no other possibility.
    Which are you more comfortable with THUNDER?

    Well THUNDER, you may well believe that, but you have no scripture to support the belief that "hour = age". It is entirely unscriptural.

    WHAT?????? :confused:
    THUNDER, If what I say is true (and it is) The man of Sin was a contemporary of Pauls, who came and went thousands of years ago. I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that I am advocation the comission of crime, drunkeness etc..... Although If any man uses his last breath to honestly ask Jesus for forgiveness, I believe he will be forgiven. Are you saying he won't?

    YBIC
    P70
     
  3. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    VOW, I agree with everything you said EXCEPT that I am Amill.

    I adhere to whats known as "covenant eschatology".
    The belief that the only TIME OF THE END spoken of in the Bible, is the time of the end of Fleshy, National Israel as Gods Covenant People. The End of the Old Covenant.

    As for the Millennium, I believe it found it' fulfillment between the ascention in 30AD and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. A "Biblical Generation", but was representative of the completion of the Davidic Monarchy, Beginning with David, and ending with Messiah, covering a period of 1000 years.

    Other than that, I can find nothing to disagree with. Thanks for the support VOW, I'm finding it few and far between on this forum, but I'll take it when I can get it!! :p
    YBIC,
    P70
     
  4. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    p70,

    I did not fail to notice the scriptures you cited. I did err by singling you out to defend your position. My only excuse for doing this is because I understand Wildfire's position and don't need additional support for WF's opinion. Neither do I need further defense of your view that the world is without end, because again that is a view that I hold and understand. What I didn't understand was how you personally reconciled WF's verses with your own view. I see now (correct me if i'm wrong) that you depend heavily upon a 'spiritual' fulfillment to explain verses which obviously cannot possibly have had a physical fulfillment prior to AD 100.

    Assuming I correctly understand your viewpoint I'd like to ask you a question... Have you ever felt that God was simply a huckster deliberately misleading mankind? I mean, when you think about it here is the divine oracle who knows the end from the very beginning and He makes this claim that the sea is going to turn to blood and all the fish die and when that doesn't happen it is explained 'Well... that was never meant to be a 'physical' thing, I meant that in a spiritual way'. Seems like the type of thing a psychic friend might tell you when your predicted soul mate fails to materialize.

    I could clear up most of the 'contradictions' you've listed but it would be a pointless exercise as long as we both hold such divergent viewpoints on the nature of prophecy. As long as you hold a 'spiritual' fulfillment then contradictions won't bother you since these physical things are only symbolic of a spiritual fulfillment which cannot be objectively proven.

    I have really enjoyed my dialog with you p70, although we do not agree on many things there are still many things in which we are in agreement. I thank God that our salvation does not depend upon our understanding every letter of God's word, and that salvation is simple enough to understand that a child can grasp it. For now I am going to withdraw to do some studying. You have raised some points which I can not readily refute and my inablity to have a ready answer concerns me. It lets me know that my own knowledge still needs further refinement.
     
  5. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hey parousia,
    Maybe your bible says that all of the earths nations have heard the gospel, but mine doesn't say that.Mine says "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."
    It would appear that you think this is the end, and beyond the end, and that this is as good as it will ever get. Well, thats what you get when you take the scriptures out of context. What does the end mean to you??

    This is not that long of a post, you should be able to tackle it, but you need to cut yours down. It would take me ten minutes just to delete the stuff I didn't want to quote.
     
  6. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Also, do you believe that you will be caught up to meet Christ in the air, or is this already the Kingdom that was to come??
     
  7. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

    Let's have a thunderous round of applause for Willis!

    The paragraph above sums up my philosophy of participating on these message boards. Some people think "discussion" is a license to come out of a neutral corner when the bell rings, and beat your opponent bloody.

    Bah.

    "Discussion" means, let's open up our eyes, our hearts, our minds, and learn what other people know/think/feel/believe. We don't have to agree 100% on every little thing, but by learning about others, we can understand ourselves better.

    Again, Willis, I salute you.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  8. soulsisterclaire

    soulsisterclaire JESUS DIED FOR YOU & ME

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    If you really think about it, the Bible states that everyone must hear the Gospel before judgement comes/the end.

    So, in theory this will only happen when there are no more babies being born, because they too must hear the Gospel. And we all know that babies are born every second of everyday, everywhere. This is if you take Colossians 1:23 literally:

    "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister"

    I know this sounds farfetched, but a lot of things in the Bible sound farfetched don't they? So you believe them anyway with the faith you have? I do.

    Furthermore, when I hear about human cloning, somehow it makes me think it may have something to do with this. Like maybe people will eventually use ONLY cloning to make babies. And in my opinion, cloned humans would NOT have a soul to be saved, since man can not create a soul, only God can. Therefore once all people that were a "naturally born" unique, and God-made human have heard the Gospel, this would bring on the judgement. To me that could be quite a long time from now.

    I did not bring this up to discuss human cloning aspects, but it is something to think about. Maybe a thread could be started on that alone.

    Just my odd thoughts. :p
     
  9. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Your Bible dosen't have the following scriptures I already posted?

    Colossians 1:5-6 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

    Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

    Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

    Romans 16:25-26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;

    Your Bible is missing the above scriptures? I find that quite difficult to believe.

    I apologize for the girth of my posts and, in the interest of simplification, I'll attempt to keep them at a more palatable length.

    Only one last thing for now THUNDER,
    You claimed that "Hour = Age"

    Do you have any scripture to back that assertion up with?

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  10. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    I'll second that!!

    I know I have a tough time sometimes maintaining an "inclusive" tone in my posts and I can stand to learn a thing or two about that from Brother Willis.

    It is often dificult for me to "turn the other cheek" when faced with responses to my posts like:

    "That belief is from the pit of Hell"

    But I do try to remember not to lash back in kind.

    Thank you Willis for your elloquent, thoughtful responses to me, I sincerely hope I have not said anything to you, or anyone else for that matter, that can be construed as a personal attack.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  11. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Almost forgot that question.

    As I understand The Biblical "END", it soley referrs to the "end" of Fleshly, national Israel as Gods "covenant" people.

    An end that most certainly came to pass in 70AD with the destruction of Temple Judiasm. Every "Jot and tittle of the law" passed away with the destruction of the temple and priesthood. no longer can the "letter" of the Law be practiced or observed. The shadow is gone, the fulfillment is here. (see the entire book of Hebrews)

    Now, no ethnic group is in any sense accepted or rejected by God because of their DNA, but ALL are freely accepted in Christ.

    Thunder, I didn't forget your question:
    I have an answer to that for sure, but I'll need a while to figure out how to compress it to a smaller length without doing injustice to the Jist.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  12. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    AMEN Sister!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:

    The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it!

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  13. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Willis, I Interprate ALL scripture Literally. Suprised?

    The difference is that I believe when it comes to scripture,the "literal" meaning is the "intended" meaning.

    There is all kinds of literary style used in scripture:
    Historical, Poetic, & apocalyptic to name a few.

    The "literal" interpratation of a "poetic" piece is different from the "literal" interpratation of an "Historical" piece.
    Follow?

    For example in Revelation, when it speaks of a "woman who sits on seven hills" is that describing a Giagantic female human actually big enough to sit on seven hills at once?
    Or even an actual female human who sits on seven hills one at a time?

    Of Course not, a true "literal" interpratation of that passage must take into account the metaphore being used. Do you see what I mean?

    I do my best to use scriptural precident to determine how I should interprate any given passage.

    Sun darkening, earth splitting, stars falling etc, were all terms used by the prophets in the OT to describe the "Fall of a Nation". The demise of Governments and principalities were all described "apocalypticly" as great disturbances in the heavens and earth.

    Since This precident was set over and over by the prophets, and since Jesus and the apostles understood and spoke in the language of the prophets, I have no scriptural basis to conclude that this same language, when used in the NT, can be interprated any other way.

    I did at one time believe that, and, for a while, it led me astray from the faith alltogether. But I believed that for different reasons than you cite:

    I could not abide by a God who instructed His 1st century followers to "watch" for an event He knew full wouldn't take place for another 2000+ years.

    Then, I wondered if just by chance, God actually told them to watch for it because it WOULD in fact happen TO them, in their earthly lifespan.

    I can accept the fact that maybe we have all gotten it wrong, but I couldn't abide by the notion that the apostles, and Jesus himself for that matter, were wrong.

    My post is gaining in girth once again, so I'll stop here for now...
    Peace in Christ,
    P70
     
  14. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Sorry I didn't clarify what I meant. I was referring to the way you twisted the first scripture you gave, and ran it all together. It was such a turn off, that I didn't even bother going through your other ones. I'm not saying this in anger, but just don't like to mess with misquotes. Your posts are still too long. Try a little patients, this doesn't have to be settled today.

    Yes, the apostles may have preached the gospel all over the (known) world. It should also be noted that the disciples also didn't even realize that their Lord was going to be crucified, even after He had told them. Now it comes down to your interpretation. Now, if all the preaching should have been finished 2000 years ago, then how did I hear the gospel?? The world has been growing my friend. Did the disciples preach in the United States, Russia, the Philipines or Austrailia?? And also, what about the element of time, which I will answer in the next post?? I believe that the Lord may have wanted it to appear that they were in the end, and wouldn't that give the gospel more power?? We are in the final hour.
     
  15. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    THUNDER, What scripture did I twist? What scripture did I misquote?
    Could you be a bit more specific?

    I agree, but what scriptural support do you have to assert Jesus didn't mean (Known) world when he said:
    "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."?
    I have all the scriptural support I need to contend that Jesus meant "Known world at that time". If you like we can get into the Greek to address that claim.

    So You believe God misled the apostles into thinking they were the endtime generation? The Holy Spirit lead them into ALL thruth EXCEPT that? I'm sorry, but I can't abide by that.

    rollinTHUNDER says we today are living in the "Last Hour"

    The apostle John, writing under infallible inspiration, said HE was living in the "Last Hour"

    Given that choice, who do you suppose I'm gonna put my money on? ;)
     
  16. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    An hour is a measurement of time, and it is clear that we are in the same age that the disciples were in, because our mission is still the same. The righteous shall live by faith. Faith is believing in something not seen. Like that verse you gave said, the Faith and love that sprang from the hope that (is stored up for you in heaven). This proves that we have not been made complete yet. Col. 3:3-4 - "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.(4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory." This has not happened, and therefore is still to come.

    Now back to the measurement of time. No one knows of the day, and know one knows of the HOUR. You may claim that you know, but that is all. Matt. 24:36 - "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."Thats good enough me brother, who are we to say, or that God should be mindful of us?? So, it does come down to your interpretation. We may never agree, and maybe thats okay. I wouldn't want to keep you from your opinion.
     
  17. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    No, I'm not saying God misled or lied to them, He just didn't tell them everything, only what they needed to know. Yes, we are in the final hour, just like the disciples were. Gotta go for now.
     
  18. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    THUNDER, you'll be proud of me here! This'll be my shortest post yet! :p

    Revelation 1:1
    1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God(The Father) gave Him (The Son) to show His servants(First century Christians)--things which must shortly take place.

    At the time of Johns Vision, recorded in The Book of Revelation, We see that The Father told the Son, who in turn told John to tell his contemporaries in the 1st Century that His return would take place Shortly as time related to them.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  19. will_wait4Him

    will_wait4Him Well-Known Member

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    You know, I sort of can't wait until the end times. We'll be put up into Heaven for a while, and when I'm there, I plan on sky diving without a paratute!!!! :) :) :) :)
     
  20. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Yeah - I do like this short one. My bible uses the word "soon". And again, it comes down to your interpretation. How soon is shortly?? And yes, as I already said before, I do believe that we are in the same hour (age) as the disciples. They were under the Law before this age, but we are under the blood of Christ, sowing so our Lord will have an abundant harvest.
     
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