The time “is near” or “many days from now”?

claninja

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In Daniel 8, the vision of the Greeks conquering Persia, the little horn, and the 2300 evenings and mornings, was to be sealed up because it was to occur in the distant future/many days:

Daniel 8:26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been spoken is true. Now you must seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.

In revelation 22, John is told the exact opposite of Daniel: do NOT seal up the vision of the book of revelation for the time is near

Revelation 22:10 10Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near


What time was near to John? If the time was not literally near to John, why didn’t the angel just tell John what Daniel was told: seal up the vision for it for a distant time?
 

Yosoyguapo

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In order to understand Rev. 22:10 you first need to go back to

Revelation 1:3 The revelation of Jesus the Anointed which God gave to Him to show His servants the things which must occur suddenly*....

*This prepositional phrase literally means, “within a very short space of time.” Nothing in this phrase necessarily requires that the beginning of this short time frame is close, only that the events themselves will occur within a short block of time – rapidly or suddenly. (See: Rev. 22:6,7,12,20).

Revelation 1:3 The reader and the listeners to the sayings of this prophecy are privileged, also those who heed the things written in it; because the appointed time is **ready [near].

**The sense is that the end time events are “ready” or “prepared.” This term does not necessarily mean “near” in time. The Greek word was commonly used in reference to the Day of the Lord in the LXX (Isa. 13:6; Ezek. 30:3; Joel 1:15; Joel 2:1; Joel 3:14; Obadiah 1:15; Zeph. 1:7,14). These prophets were much farther removed in time from the Day of the Lord than the book of Revelation. Here the sense is that the specific time has been prepared or appointed. Thus the events are certain to occur. (See: Rev. 22:10).
When Jesus was on the land He did not know the appointed time (Mark 13:32; Acts 1:7). This statement implies that the time was now known to Him.
 
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claninja

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In order to understand Rev. 22:10 you first need to go back to

Revelation 1:3 The revelation of Jesus the Anointed which God gave to Him to show His servants the things which must occur suddenly*....

*This prepositional phrase literally means, “within a very short space of time.” Nothing in this phrase necessarily requires that the beginning of this short time frame is close, only that the events themselves will occur within a short block of time – rapidly or suddenly. (See: Rev. 22:6,7,12,20).

Revelation 1:3 The reader and the listeners to the sayings of this prophecy are privileged, also those who heed the things written in it; because the appointed time is **ready [near].

**The sense is that the end time events are “ready” or “prepared.” This term does not necessarily mean “near” in time. The Greek word was commonly used in reference to the Day of the Lord in the LXX (Isa. 13:6; Ezek. 30:3; Joel 1:15; Joel 2:1; Joel 3:14; Obadiah 1:15; Zeph. 1:7,14). These prophets were much farther removed in time from the Day of the Lord than the book of Revelation. Here the sense is that the specific time has been prepared or appointed. Thus the events are certain to occur. (See: Rev. 22:10).
When Jesus was on the land He did not know the appointed time (Mark 13:32; Acts 1:7). This statement implies that the time was now known to Him.
I agree that the adverb “quickly” or “soon” in revelation 1:3 can mean the events will occur in a “short time span”. In other words, i agree that “soon must take place” can mean “when the events occur, they will occur fast, quickly, within a short time span”.

However, the OP has nothing to do with the events of revelation occurring “fast” or “quickly”. The OP has to do with the time being “near”. The adverb “near” at the end of verse 3 literally means near in time.

If the events of revelation weren’t literally near in time, why didn’t the angel tell John the time is “many days from now” or “in the distant future” like Daniel was told?

Your response doesn’t address this. Your response addresses something the OP isn’t discussing.
 
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Matt5

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With Revelation as a whole unclear, why do you think the angel suddenly decided to get clear about "the time is near?" That seems inconsistent.

But why is it all so unclear?

Matthew 13 explains: it is for you to know but not for them.

The "you" is the disciples and the "them" is everybody else. I think that means a tiny portion would understand (accept it) but the vast majority not. It's hiding bad news for Christians which 99% will not accept.
 
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claninja

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With Revelation as a whole unclear, why do you think the angel suddenly decided to get clear about "the time is near?" That seems inconsistent.
For the futurist position, I would absolutely agree. It would make absolutely no sense for the book revelation to claim that the time was “near” for all these unclear events to occur, if in fact they were not to occur soon, but in the distant future.

So let’s look at daniel. Daniel is given an unclear vision that he doesn’t understand. Daniel is told to “seal up the vision FOR IT CONCERNS THE DISTANT FUTURE/MANY DAYS FROM NOW”


daniel 8:26-2726The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been spoken is true. Now you must seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.”
27I, Daniel, was exhausted and lay ill for days. Then I got up and went about the king’s business. I was confounded by the vision; it was beyond understanding.

So IF the events of revelation were not literally to near as the futurist argues, despite John being told the polar opposite: that they were near, why wouldn’t have John been told the same thing as Daniel: the time is for the distant future/many days from now?

But why is it all so unclear?

IF revelation was written pre 70ad and the symbolic/apocalyptic recapitulating Visions of revelation refer mainly to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad, then it’s not that unclear that the time was literally “near”. In fact it would make sense that revelation was “uncovering” or “revealing” that the time was “NEAR” for Christ to come in judgement upon Israel.

But again, I would argue that IF revelation is not mainly about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad but events s future to the 21st century, then it makes no sense for John to have been told that the time was near instead of being told the time is for the distant future, like Daniel.
 
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Douggg

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In Daniel 8, the vision of the Greeks conquering Persia, the little horn, and the 2300 evenings and mornings, was to be sealed up because it was to occur in the distant future/many days:

Daniel 8:26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been spoken is true. Now you must seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.

In revelation 22, John is told the exact opposite of Daniel: do NOT seal up the vision of the book of revelation for the time is near

Revelation 22:10 10Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of prophecy in this book, because the time is near


What time was near to John? If the time was not literally near to John, why didn’t the angel just tell John what Daniel was told: seal up the vision for it for a distant time?
Daniel 8:26, regarding the vision of the little horn, and transgression of desolation committed by him is time of the end. On the chart.


little horn beast.jpg



In Revelation, the time is near is taken from Matthew 24:32-33. Revelation 6-20 is talking about the 7 years preceding Jesus's return. The time is near when you see those things start to happen.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

:heavycheck: from Daniel 12:4, time of the end would be characterized by travel and knowlege increased - our time.

:heavycheck: Israel a nation again, Isaiah 66:7-8, and Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews, parable of the fig tree generation - our time

:heavycheck: Gog/Magog nations in place, latter days, latter years, Ezekiel 38:8, Ezekiel 38:16 - our time

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. The rapture/resurrection.


ratpure window10.jpg
 
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claninja

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Daniel 8:26, regarding the vision of the little horn, and transgression of desolation committed by him is time of the end

And when was Daniel told that this vision would occur: near or in the distant future?


ew 24:32-33. Revelation 6-20 is talking about the 7 years preceding Jesus's return. The time is near when you see those things start to happen.

John wasn’t told that when the things of revelation begin to occur then the time is near. So that’s incorrect .

John was told the not to seal the Vision FOR “time is near”.

If the time wasn’t literally near, as you argue, why didn’t he tell John to seal up the vision FOR it for the distant future/many days from now just like Daniel?
 
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claninja

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33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

James said the parousia of the Lord had drawn near (perfect tense verb) and the judge had been standing (perfect tense) at the door in James 5:8-9.

So I’m not sure how Matthew 24:33 helps your argument?
 
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Douggg

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John wasn’t told that when the things of revelation begin to occur then the time is near. So that’s incorrect .

John was told the not to seal the Vision FOR “time is near”.

If the time wasn’t literally near, as you argue, why didn’t he tell John to seal up the vision FOR it for the distant future/many days from now just like Daniel?
Who called up John to heaven and showed John the things to come, and told to write them down ? Jesus

Who said in Matthew 24:32-33 "know that is near"? Jesus

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

The events in Revelation are about the 7 years preceding and ending with Jesus's return.

The time is near - regarding Jesus's return - in both Revelation and Matthew 24 is when those things in Revelation begin to happen.
 
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Douggg

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ames said the parousia of the Lord had drawn near (perfect tense verb) and the judge had been standing (perfect tense) at the door in James 5:8-9.

So I’m not sure how Matthew 24:33 helps your argument?
Look around you.

:heavycheck: from Daniel 12:4, time of the end would be characterized by travel and knowlege increased - our time.
:heavycheck: Israel a nation again, Isaiah 66:7-8, and Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews, parable of the fig tree generation - our time
:heavycheck: Gog/Magog nations in place, latter days, latter years, Ezekiel 38:8, Ezekiel 38:16 - our time
 
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claninja

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Who called up John to heaven and showed John the things to come, and told to write them down ? Jesus

Who said in Matthew 24:32-33 "know that is near"? Jesus

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

The events in Revelation are about the 7 years preceding and ending with Jesus's return.

The time is near - regarding Jesus's return - in both Revelation and Matthew 24 is when those things in Revelation begin to happen.

John was told NOT to seal the vision FOR the time is near

Daniel was told to seal up the vision FOR it concerns the distant future

2 polar opposite commands.

If the time was not actually near, as you argue, why wasn’t John told to seal up the vision for it concerns the distant future?
 
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claninja

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Look around you.

:heavycheck: from Daniel 12:4, time of the end would be characterized by travel and knowlege increased - our time.
:heavycheck: Israel a nation again, Isaiah 66:7-8, and Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews, parable of the fig tree generation - our time
:heavycheck: Gog/Magog nations in place, latter days, latter years, Ezekiel 38:8, Ezekiel 38:16 - our time

the “look around you” argument has a 100% failure rate for the 2,000 years of futurist claims.

You have not addressed James 5:8-9
 
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Douggg

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the “look around you” argument has a 100% failure rate for the 2,000 years of futurist claims.

You have not addressed James 5:8-9
Futurists have not shown the checked off requirements in the past.
 
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Douggg

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the “look around you” argument has a 100% failure rate for the 2,000 years of futurist claims.

You have not addressed James 5:8-9
Some day, when the rapture/resurrection takes place, you will be able to ask James himself what he was thinking. I think he was thinking about the sudden appearance factor of Jesus's coming (for the rapture/resurrection) and act accordingly.
 
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Douggg

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Sure, just provide the passage that says that in revelation.
Same Jesus who called John up to heaven is the same Jesus who spoke in Matthew 24:32-33. Why are you arguing, because Jesus has not returned obviously?
 
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DavidPT

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Revelation 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.


If we then factor the following in, should we not assume that these things span multiple generations?

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Unless one is a full Preterist, no one is going to argue that Revelation 20:10-15 has already been fulfilled, that is was fulfilled in the 1st century. Only a full Preterist could argue something such as that.

While Revelation 22:10---for the time is at hand---can obviously be applied to the period of time involving Revelation 1:9, how can it in the same manner be applied to what is recorded in Revelation 20:10-15? Revelation 1:9 is meaning 2000 years ago. Revelation 20:10-15 hasn't even been fulfilled yet. Shouldn't this at least tell us that the time was at hand 2000 years ago, and that it continues to be at hand until the end of this age involving Christ's bodily return?

Something to note is what John said in Revelation 1:9---who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation---for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Compare that with---

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God(Revelation 20:4)

And with this as well---

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held(Revelation 6:9)

But that only takes into account all of the saints who were already martyred before they are told to rest yet a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled(Revelation 6:11)

It seems to me then, the fact John indicated the beast was 'is not' at the time, that it was to ascend out of the pit in the future, that this means John would also be among the ones crying out for vengeance in Revelation 6:9, that he was martyred prior to the time of the little season meant in Revelation 6:11. Keeping in mind that he was eventually martyred, obviously meaning after he saw any of these visions.

Which means that a little season needs to be fulfilled first, something that never happened in John's day. Which then tells us what I am already arguing, that the time is at hand, and that it began in the first century and continues to the end of this age.


What the OP is arguing in regards to comparing Daniel 8 to Revelation, this is basically irrelevant for the following reasons. The time wasn't at hand in Daniel's day, involving any of those visions, but would be at hand in John's day involving the visions he saw. But that still doesn't mean every single vision John saw, that they all involved only his day and time. The fact a little season has to be entirely fulfilled first, meaning once the martyrs under the altar cry out for vengeance, this alone tells us that the book of Revelation is involving events that began in the first century and continue until the literal end of this age. What about the ones martyred during the little season? When does God enact vengeance for them if He already allegedly did that pertaining to 70 AD or whatever?

And that some of Revelation is even involving events beyond the end of this age, such as Revelation 21-22, and that Premils also argue, so is the thousand years. But since the latter is debatable, one can't use that as undeniable proof. Maybe Revelation 21-22 is debatable as well since some Preterists don't interpret those 2 chapters in the same manner as some of the rest of us do.
 
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