The Three-Legged Stool of Apostasy

[reddogs]

I guess you know Red, that Dr. Ford and many other non-Adventist scholars have written VOLUMES refuting your postion.

Indeed, Dr. Ford said at a conference in the 1980's at which he spoke, that from the beginning right to the end of his Bible studies, Hebrews 9 and 10 always contradicted the postion of Ellen White and the SDA church. The more he studied Hebrews, the more he looked at the Greek in Hebrews, and the more he read the great scholars of the Protestant churches from Luther down to modern times, the more and more Hebrews 9 and 10 refuted Ellen White and the SDA postion.

Dr. Ford next went to other scholars in the church. He counseled with Dr. Ed Heppenstall and Dr. Raymond Cottrell and they admitted that it is impossible to unhold the SDA postion with Hebrews 9 and 10. Dr. Cottrell even related to Ford the story about how he was very upset with Dr. Barnhouse, a Presbyterian, back in the 1950's, when he told the Adventist church "there is not the slightest HINT in Hebrews or the entire Bible for that matter, of the 1844/IJ doctrine. No scholars, from centuries ago to today, have found this strange doctrine in Scripture and none ever will. You people only hold this doctrine because of Ellen White".

So, irritated by this perceived attack from Barnhouse, Dr. Cottrell decided to devote most of his time proving Dr. Barnhouse wrong. He sat down and began his attempt using the Greek, grammar, context and the other accepted methods of Bible scholarship to prove this doctrine FROM SCRIPTURE ALONE!! His conclusion was that this doctrine comes from Ellen White and NOT the Bible. Any SDA scholar worth thier salt will honestly tell you this, and that they only accept the doctrine based on EGW's endorsement. Bill Shea and Clifford Goldstein's Scriptural and theological gymnastics notwithstanding.

Night,

The Pharisees also could not see how Jesus could make the statements he was making and the things He was doing or allowing His disciples and accused him of not following what was written in Gods word and of blasphame. Christ showed them that His words were from God the Father and fulfilled all the prophecies right before the Pharisees very eyes and yet they still would not believe, their minds were shut to truth.

So if you are fighting writings that are of human origin, beliefs that are not from God, and a church that doesnt follow Gods word, then you are doing what is right. But if it is from God, then you are in danger of the error that the Pharisees fell into, blinded by their own 'wisdom' and pride in self...

 

[reddogs]

Apostasy to Adventism is NOT the same thing as apostasy to Christianity.


You have certainly not laid out what the Evangelical 'view' is here. Basically it sounds like you're saying that Christians are not to claim the promises God gave to us assuring us that in Christ we are already saved, and if we are claiming that Christ has saved us (as he promised) we are not following the Holy Spirit, but some 'other' spirit.


You mean the rejection of EGW as being the 'spirit of prophecy'. According to the Bible, the testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy, not a person lifted up by a sectarian group. Should we believe the Bible, or what the SDA church says?


I'm not sure where you're getting your information from, but it's not based in reality. Drifting from the claimed peculiar 'truths' of Adventism is NOT the same as rejecting the Truth (Jesus IS the truth). And rejecting Adventist's claimed version of 'truth' is not attacking the SDA church. The larger body of Christ has rejected the peculiar truths of Adventism clear back to it's beginnings when the Millerites believed in the false prophecies that led to their own disappointment. The larger body of Christ instead followed the Bible and were ridiculed for doing so by the Adventists.


I don't know any Christians trying to 'pry others away' from Jesus Christ.


Can you get more elitist and arrogant?

Jesus IS the truth.


We who believe in Jesus Christ for salvation already have the Holy Spirit (GOD) living in us. Why would we pray for what we already have as promised in Scripture? Do you not believe God's promises to us? I would call that 'unbelief'.

In Christ alone...

Christ has given us His testimony in the Spirit of Prophecy, and yet you reject what is from Christ, so I dont know what good saying that if you dont follow through. The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth and that truth is in harmony with Gods word and what Christ taught, so you must test what spirit is guiding you if it is going against the Sabbath and other of Gods truths. If you can find another church that has a more complete fullness of truth as the Adventist church, please share it with us, as we must go there, otherwise you must grab on to Gods truth and hold on tight as you go through lifes path...

 

[reddogs]

Red's reason for this thread appears to be to spread his misunderstandings. Let's look at his list:

Those who truly seek Gods truth are my intended audience and my purpose is to challenge them to open their eyes, set aside any prejudice and ask themselves the following:

1) Is there another church with a more complete and fullness of Gods truth in harmony with His word and understanding of prophecy, if so, you must go to it.

There is in fact no church with complete and fullness of God's truth the reality is that as organizations every denomination and independent church has problems. Yes we rate which errors bother us the most and that may cause one to choose one or another.

I didnt say it had a complete and fullness of God's truth, but one that has the most complete and fullness of God's truth. If you know one that has more, please share.


2) Is there another church with a more complete and fullness of understanding of the Sabbath and its purpose then you must go to it and gain the understanding.

Why is the Sabbath so important to you, maybe it is not to others, so is it necessary for you to assert what they must do also?

God shows the way to love Him and our fellowman, if you think Gods law can be rejected or ignored, that is your choice. But to what end or purpose do you turn aside the Sabbath, it is not meant to harm you or do evil but is a blessing and a wonderful gift for us.

3) Is there another church with a more complete and fullness of Three Angels message and the end time before Christ comes again then you must go to it and gain the understanding.

What nonsense you can't even make a statement without resorting to trite SDA phrases such as Three Angels message. Likely you don't even know what they mean by that. It is frankly often used to indicate all of the teachings of the SDA church.

If you know a church that follows more closely Gods truth in their teachings, please share.

4) Is there another church with a more complete and fullness of understanding of the Investigative Judgement and its purpose then you must go to it and gain the understanding.

There is no church other then the SDA church with a investigative judgment view because it does not Biblically exist. What amazing nonsense

Their are many truths the Pharisees could not understand that Jesus presented, but just because they didnt comprehend it didnt mean it wasnt truth.

5) Is there another church that is more prepared for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as has been promised then you must go to it and prepare for the Spirit to be poured out.

Oh so now the Holy Spirit is poured out on denominations. Guess I missed that part in the Bible as well, must be right next to the IJ.

I didnt say it was being done, but it is the best prepared.

If you feel the Roman Catholic church, the Methodist, the Presbyterian, the Baptist, the Lutheran, the Unitarian, the Mormon, the Jehovah Witnesses, the Messianic Jews, the Greek Orthodox, or any other church is the Remnant Church who God loves, then you must run not walk to it.

That is right go from one mistaken idea of the remnant to another of the fundamentalist branches which think they are the remnant also. What this amounts to is an appeal to find the same errors of the SDA church in other churches. And that puts us back to the answer in number one that there is not complete and full truth Christian denomination they all have errors and we ourselves no doubt have errors that we use to judge other churches.

Well, If you know one that has more complete understanding and fullness of truth, let us know, please share.

You must search honestly and find where the most complete understanding of Gods truth is being preached in the church, taught in its schools, and shared by its members.

When you find it, please come back and share it with us as my 'freethinkers' are out there right now looking and they are not finding, and are coming back, but the love for the truth is no longer in them. The understanding of what was once plain has left them, the sharing of Gods truth has become a tortured twisting false deconstruction of Gods word, the love in their hearts has began to fade, and they are giving up on God altogether as they cant find what they once had....

Welcome to the Grand Illusion. If you can't search for truth here and now in the church you attend today what does that say about your church. I am willing to stay and explore but it is people like Red who practice amazingly narrow thinking patterns that really create the problems for people who actually are searching for truth.

If you are searching then you must look at Gods word and apply it to any church, movement, group and see if they are on the right path, which leads to Christ and eternal life...

 

[freeindeed2]

Christ has given us His testimony in the Spirit of Prophecy, and yet you reject what is from Christ, so I dont know what good saying that if you dont follow through.

The testimony of Jesus IS the spirit of prophecy. I do not reject that, for it is straight from Scripture. What I do reject is any group or individual trying to assign what Scripture says to the supposed 'prophetic' writings of in individual and coining them as the 'Spirit of Prophecy'.

The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth and that truth is in harmony with Gods word and what Christ taught, so you must test what spirit is guiding you if it is going against the Sabbath and other of Gods truths.

Christ IS the truth! And he promised the Holy Spirit (GOD HIMSELF) to live in ALL who believe in Him (Jesus). That's a promise from God that we can bank on. It's guaranteed! In fact, Scripture tells us the the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of ALL that God has promised.

Are you being guided into 'truths' other than Christ? Maybe it is you who needs to check what spirit is leading you.

If you can find another church that has a more complete fullness of truth as the Adventist church, please share it with us, as we must go there,

It's called 'Christianity', the ONLY church Jesus started and who the Epistles wrote instruction to. There is NO greater 'truth' than Jesus Christ.

otherwise you must grab on to Gods truth and hold on tight as you go through lifes path...

Jesus IS the truth. It's not about our 'ability' to 'hold onto Him' (God's truth). He 'holds onto' us (for lack of a better term).

In Christ alone...

 

[NightEternal]

Night,

The Pharisees also could not see how Jesus could make the statements he was making and the things He was doing or allowing His disciples and accused him of not following what was written in Gods word and of blasphame. Christ showed them that His words were from God the Father and fulfilled all the prophecies right before the Pharisees very eyes and yet they still would not believe, their minds were shut to truth.

So if you are fighting writings that are of human origin, beliefs that are not from God, and a church that doesnt follow Gods word, then you are doing what is right. But if it is from God, then you are in danger of the error that the Pharisees fell into, blinded by their own 'wisdom' and pride in self...

Right over his head. Unbelievable.

Have a nice evening Red.

 

[reddogs]

Right over his head. Unbelievable.

Have a nice evening Red.

So what do you do when the truths of the Investigative Judgement are unveiled by the Holy Spirit, will you quote mans words and mans wisdom and ignore the testimony of Christ much like the Pharisees did. Better to set it aside for now rather than reject, as God will allow this and other hard truths to understand, to be made clear when the Spirit is poured out at the end.

 

[reddogs]

The testimony of Jesus IS the spirit of prophecy. I do not reject that, for it is straight from Scripture. What I do reject is any group or individual trying to assign what Scripture says to the supposed 'prophetic' writings of in individual and coining them as the 'Spirit of Prophecy'.


Christ IS the truth! And he promised the Holy Spirit (GOD HIMSELF) to live in ALL who believe in Him (Jesus). That's a promise from God that we can bank on. It's guaranteed! In fact, Scripture tells us the the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of ALL that God has promised.

Are you being guided into 'truths' other than Christ? Maybe it is you who needs to check what spirit is leading you.


It's called 'Christianity', the ONLY church Jesus started and who the Epistles wrote instruction to. There is NO greater 'truth' than Jesus Christ.


Jesus IS the truth. It's not about our 'ability' to 'hold onto Him' (God's truth). He 'holds onto' us (for lack of a better term).

In Christ alone...

'Christianity' is what let paganism creap into the truth and change the day that Christ is Lord of to the pagan sun gods day of Sunday, 'Christianity' is what killed 50 million true believers who tried to keep Gods word, 'Christianity' is what started the Spanish Inquisition, 'Christianity' is what many had to flee as it burned their leaders at the stake...So better to follow Christs believers who truly follow his words not some declare themselves 'Christians' but dont follow what Christ asked....

 

[tall73]

Night,

The Pharisees also could not see how Jesus could make the statements he was making and the things He was doing or allowing His disciples and accused him of not following what was written in Gods word and of blasphame. Christ showed them that His words were from God the Father and fulfilled all the prophecies right before the Pharisees very eyes and yet they still would not believe, their minds were shut to truth.

So if you are fighting writings that are of human origin, beliefs that are not from God, and a church that doesnt follow Gods word, then you are doing what is right. But if it is from God, then you are in danger of the error that the Pharisees fell into, blinded by their own 'wisdom' and pride in self...

Reddogs,

Your posts all boil down to the same thing. "Don't apply the Bible to our beliefs.."

 

[tall73]

So what do you do when the truths of the Investigative Judgement are unveiled by the Holy Spirit, will you quote mans words and mans wisdom and ignore the testimony of Christ much like the Pharisees did. Better to set it aside for now rather than reject, as God will allow this and other hard truths to understand, to be made clear when the Spirit is poured out at the end.

So why don't you accept all the other beliefs of all the other churches just in case?

I had an aunt who kept Sunday and Sabbath just to be sure. Should we go that route?

 

[freeindeed2]

'Christianity' is what let paganism creap into the truth and change the day that Christ is Lord of to the pagan sun gods day of Sunday, 'Christianity' is what killed 50 million true believers who tried to keep Gods word, 'Christianity' is what started the Spanish Inquisition, 'Christianity' is what many had to flee as it burned their leaders at the stake...

Are you a Christian? Christianity is the church Jesus initiated. It's made up of all who believe in Him for salvation. Do you belong to that church?

Fundamentalist 'christians' (NOT to be confused with Christians/believers in Christ) are the one's who committed the atrocities you have described above. They may have carried the name, but it was a misrepresentation and they developed their own fundamentalistic beliefs, and if you didn't accept their beliefs then you received punishment. But that's NOT Christianity. Groups still do this today, only people don't usually get killed for not accepting their fundamentals.

So better to follow Christs believers

Sorry. Why would we follow men who make claims when we have Jesus Christ, the full-revelation of the Father? Why should we get tied up in sectarianism/denominationalism who, like those groups you mentioned above, demand that you accept their version of interpretations, and if you don't you're considered to be an 'outsider', or 'lost'? I'd rather trust God who lives IN me and has PROMISED to lead me than to follow men who make claims and have agendas.

who truly follow his words not some declare themselves 'Christians' but dont follow what Christ asked....

True Christians (Christians) have the Spirit of Christ LIVING IN THEM. He changes them into the likeness of God, causing them to reflect his glory more and more. He does HIS good work IN us, and produces HIS good fruit IN us. I'll be sticking with Christ himself!

In Christ alone...

 

[sentipente]

So why don't you accept all the other beliefs of all the other churches just in case?

I had an aunt who kept Sunday and Sabbath just to be sure. Should we go that route?

How does one keep Saturday or Sunday? Where are humans ever commanded to keep a day? And what would you do with the day if you kept it?

 

[StormyOne]

How does one keep Saturday or Sunday? Where are humans ever commanded to keep a day? And what would you do with the day if you kept it?

you wrap it up in special paper and put a bow on top....

 

[sentipente]

you wrap it up in special paper and put a bow on top....

No re-gifting?

 

[StormyOne]

No re-gifting?

hmmm need to check the manual on that one.....

 

[Sophia7]

Night,

The Pharisees also could not see how Jesus could make the statements he was making and the things He was doing or allowing His disciples and accused him of not following what was written in Gods word and of blasphame. Christ showed them that His words were from God the Father and fulfilled all the prophecies right before the Pharisees very eyes and yet they still would not believe, their minds were shut to truth.

So if you are fighting writings that are of human origin, beliefs that are not from God, and a church that doesnt follow Gods word, then you are doing what is right. But if it is from God, then you are in danger of the error that the Pharisees fell into, blinded by their own 'wisdom' and pride in self...

So what do you do when the truths of the Investigative Judgement are unveiled by the Holy Spirit, will you quote mans words and mans wisdom and ignore the testimony of Christ much like the Pharisees did. Better to set it aside for now rather than reject, as God will allow this and other hard truths to understand, to be made clear when the Spirit is poured out at the end.

Red, how do you know that you are not doing what the Pharisees did?

 

[Cribstyl]

How does one keep Saturday or Sunday? Where are humans ever commanded to keep a day? And what would you do with the day if you kept it?

Domnic...

The confusion is the questions.
We believe as is written in the bible, that God actually first gave the sabbath to the COI, not all humans.

Genesis text reads that God rested the 7th day of creation from all His work.."Sabbath" is one 24hr day of rest, God's rest is His thrones, He finished, He sat down. If He rested only for 24hrs where is the evidence?
When anyone go searching the bible about "God's rest" We learn these truths.

1.No man Had entered His rest.
2.His rest was first preached to the Children of Israel. (Not Adam)

Hbr 4:4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Hbr 4:5And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest.

Hbr 4:6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Hbr 4:7Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

Hbr 4:8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
....................................................................

The SDA church I attend, reaffirms the 4th commandment every Sabbath. They connect the sabbath as a creation Law (commandment). (Does all SDA do this?)

Let's examine the 4th commandment with a clear mind...

Exd 20:8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.


(Always keep the seventh day holy..)


Exd 20:9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
(..six days you can do all your work..)

Exd 20:10But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
(the correct understand of Hebrew scriptures reads....to the LORD.)
( the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord,..dont do any work on that day....Not your son, daughter, slaves, animals, or visitors on your property....)

Exd 20:11For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

(because, God made everything that exists and then rested on the seventh day, and this is why He blessed the day of the Sabbath and hallowed it)
the sabbath day is bless and holy
the day of sabbath is blessed and holy.


These text refur back to God's 6 day creative acts.
These text refur back to God's rest
These text declare the both the seventh day and the sabbath day, holy and blessed.

These text do not say Remember the Sabbath I gave Adam.
The word "Remember "is saying "continue keeping" the sabbath.



This is why I asked Jewish Rabbis' about their history and the understanding of their Torah.

My questions are not tangle people in my theology...I'm seeking understanding of God word.

CRIB

 

[Cribstyl]

Available Translations and Versions for Exd 20:10KJV - Exd 20:10 -But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates: King James Version 1611, 1769

NKJV - Exd 20:10 -but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.
New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson

NLT - Exd 20:10 -but the seventh day is a day of rest dedicated to the Lord your God. On that day no one in your household may do any kind of work. This includes you, your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, your livestock, and any foreigners living among you. New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

NIV - Exd 20:10 -but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.
New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society

ESV - Exd 20:10 -“but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway Bibles

NASB - Exd 20:10 -but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; {in it} you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

RSV - Exd 20:10 -but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates; Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.

ASV - Exd 20:10 -but the seventh day is a sabbath unto Jehovah thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: American Standard Version 1901 Info

Young - Exd 20:10 -and the seventh day [is] a Sabbath to Jehovah thy God; thou dost not do any work, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, thy man-servant, and thy handmaid, and thy cattle, and thy sojourner who is within thy gates, -- Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info

Darby - Exd 20:10 -but the seventh day is the sabbath of Jehovah thy God: thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy bondman, nor thy handmaid, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates. J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info

Webster - Exd 20:10 -But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates: Noah Webster Version 1833 Info

HNV - Exd 20:10 -but the seventh day is a Shabbat to the LORD your God. You shall not do any work in it, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your man-servant, nor your maid-servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates; Hebrew Names Version 2000 Info

Vulgate - Exd 20:10 -septimo autem die sabbati Domini Dei tui non facies omne opus tu et filius tuus et filia tua servus tuus et ancilla tua iumentum tuum et advena qui est intra portas tuas Jerome's Latin Vulgate 405 A.D. Info

Since the vulgate dates back to 405.....let's find out what it says.
Where is Tall73 when I need him.

CRIB

 

[Cribstyl]

But the seventh [07637][SIZE=-1] sh@biy`iy[/SIZE]

day [03117][SIZE=-1] yowm[/SIZE]

[is] the sabbath [07676][SIZE=-1] shabbath[/SIZE]

of the LORD [03068][SIZE=-1] Y@hovah[/SIZE]

thy God [0430][SIZE=-1]'elohiym[/SIZE]



Dont know enough Hebrew but after brainstorming a little.......My mind fell on Christ's words....."Sabbath was made for man," so sabbath is not God's sabbath to keep....it's called God's because He commanded it.

Help???

CRIB

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

So what do you do when the truths of the Investigative Judgement are unveiled by the Holy Spirit, will you quote mans words and mans wisdom and ignore the testimony of Christ much like the Pharisees did. Better to set it aside for now rather than reject, as God will allow this and other hard truths to understand, to be made clear when the Spirit is poured out at the end.

What truths of the Investigative Judgment. I have still never seen those truths. Now you may believe someday they will be revealed but certainly it has not happened. Nearly 2000 years of Christianity and it has yet to be unveiled.

All you have produced so far is what those who say that Adventism is a cult point to. That is a reliance upon EGW's views over actually Biblical doctrines. You call something a truth which was unknown even 200 years ago then you verify it by mentioning your expectation of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at the end which is again another belief only 200 years old (latter rain). What you have been declaring truth has little truth behind it and certainly no similarity to the teachings of Christ against the pharisees.

 

[Sophia7]

Since the vulgate dates back to 405.....let's find out what it says.
Where is Tall73 when I need him.

Tall can't help you with Latin.