The Three-Legged Stool of Apostasy

[joyoussong]

I think she would have to say it is inherent by assumption, though she would use other words. Maybe it would help if you explain what you think the gospel is, though.

I was thinkin it might help if she explained what she thinks it is.

It's just Jesus.

 

[Adventtruth]

There you go contradicting Christ by suggesting that He has not saved the world but sits there offering salvation like candy from Santa Claus.

Ok now...kindly flesh that one out a bit please.

AT

 

[Cribstyl]

PC, you are so full of grace. Dont change.

Friend, the bible is a living word. Understanding comes when you ask God about what is written. Your response to His word will be "yea" and "Amen," you wont need to reason in what is not written or revealed by His messengers. The results of false reasoning is why people are scattered all over.

Truthfully friend, The book of Genesis have more spiritually truths than literal truths. Each word was designed to last until the end of time.
God sent Prophets, Apostles and even Jesus, and they give us an understanding of what is written therein.

The enemy of our souls wins when we dont trust what God command of us.

Q: WHY DID GOD CREATE MAN?....A: TO KEEP THE GARDEN (why say more than God reveals in text?)

Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

When we speak what is written, we should all say "Amen."


Do we read of a sabbath given to keep or a garden?
Do we read of 10 commandments or 1 commandment?

Sorry Friend, when the sabbath is given according to Moses accounts we will read and know given details, "why," "to whom," "when," according to other books by prophets.
REREAD GEN 3 And notice how Satan's knew the one commandment he had to cause them to break.

Gen 3:1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? ​

Gen 3:2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: ​

Gen 3:3But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. ​

Gen 3:4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: ​

Gen 3:5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.​

Apostle Paul Genesis account, reenforcing what is written, He explain the serpents being subtle to decieve Eve concerning God's 1 commandment,(not ten).
According to scriptures and history we understand that Satan succeded and man surely died just as God decreed to Adam before SIN entered the world.
2Cr 11:3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

When commentary rewrite biblical words putting ten commandment in Eden, the word of God becomes twisted by those who feel that 10.com was there.

The shameful fact is, they dont see God as the "I AM"
which means He is alive and capable of answering for Himself. So they rationalized a law that God never gave to any man we can name. (One size fit all)

THE HARDCORE FACT (I got an idea for a new thread)

Those who know and trust God's word, know what He meant concerning His New Covenant not being the 10.com.Jer 31:33 , Jer 31:34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


I will pause for now but I have some Genesis creation fact to show you some text about.

Peace friend
CRIB

 

[honorthesabbath]

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel."

So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water

And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments. Ex 34:27, 28

The Bible disagrees with you as it clearly states that the covenant was the 10 commandments (at least). If you would like more references I will post them as this is NOT the only passage stating it.

Also, I can show you that breaking the 10 commandments was breaking the covenant. Would you like those references too?

In Christ alone...

Ex 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.
Ex 34:4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

 

[freeindeed2]

Ex 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.
Ex 34:4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

So you're agreeing that when we speak of the old covenant it is blatantly OBVIOUS that at its heart is the 10 commandments written on tablets of stone (and kept in the ark of the COVENANT)? Right?

 

[Adventtruth]

Ex 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.
Ex 34:4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

HTS You too have broken them...now what?

AT

 

[honorthesabbath]

So you're agreeing that when we speak of the old covenant it is blatantly OBVIOUS that at its heart is the 10 commandments written on tablets of stone (and kept in the ark of the COVENANT)? Right?

No--did you notice the BIG RED LETTERS? Moses never did write the 10c--ONLY GOD ever wrote those in stone! Thats what I was referring to.

 

[honorthesabbath]

HTS You too have broken them...now what?

AT

Well--lol--I guess we all have broken them--and therefore we need a Saviour. What do you think?

But aside from that--did you understand WHY I posted that?

 

[freeindeed2]

No--did you notice the BIG RED LETTERS? Moses never did write the 10c--ONLY GOD ever wrote those in stone! Thats what I was referring to.

Yes. I noticed the whole chapter, how God gave the covenant to Moses and Israel on Mt. Sinai and he did it with letters engraved on stone. The tablets contained the covenant God made with them.

 

[Cribstyl]

PC.......we're flowing upstream in this thread.........

let's start another church


I'm out.

CRIB

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

No--did you notice the BIG RED LETTERS? Moses never did write the 10c--ONLY GOD ever wrote those in stone! Thats what I was referring to.

Interesting. So which of the two versions of the Sabbath Commandment was written in stone.

Exodus 20:

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Or Deut 5:

12 "Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

Of course if you go by what the Bible says. it is the one in Deut 5 that is the one written by the finger of God. Yet that is not the verse used by those who claim the Sabbath continues for all time or that the Sabbath was established at Creation.

Deut. 5: 22 These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.

Interesting how the Bible sometimes gets in the way of our agenda's.

 

[Adventtruth]

Well--lol--I guess we all have broken them--and therefore we need a Saviour. What do you think?

But aside from that--did you understand WHY I posted that?

We all fall short....thus needing His perfection before us, not our febble failures at it.

I've gone through the postings, but rather than me explaining, can you kindly explain why?

AT

 

[Cribstyl]

PC.......we're flowing upstream in this thread.........

Hey, let's start another church


I'm out here.

CRIB

Hey...I started this thread below, so we should be able to dialog, "tax free. "

http://christianforums.com/t6654881-the-undisputable-truth-vs-error-about-the-law.html

 

[NightEternal]

Hiram Edson, wasn't it? In a cornfield? And Ellen had a 'vision' confirming it?

And this is pretty much the bottom line. There's no way around it.

Any doctrine that finds its origins in someone's dream is highly suspect. Who is Hiram Edson? What are his credentials? Why are we expected to just buy his 'vision' wholesale? And we build a whole doctrinal system around this man's claims? What if he was just experiencing indigestion from a bad supper? That is a pretty scary foundation to build any doctrine on, much less one that a whole denomination stands or falls on. And to claim that a doctrine which finds its origins in a dream can be Scripturally proven and sustained by the Bible alone...

Well, give me some mustard to eat with that baloney, that's all I can say.

Throw in the fact that the individual who backed and endorsed Edson (Crosier) repudiated the doctrine and claimed the whole thing was a hoax, and we have some serious problems, even though many Adventists are feign to admit it. Of course, their way to remedy that little setback is to just demonize Crosier and slander his character and integrity, claiming he gave up everything else as well, including the Sabbath. Well that's fine, but you still have this little thing called the IJ right over there, whose issues have nothing at all to do with whatever else Crosier repudiated.

It's not enough, it seems, that some of our own esteemed SDA scholars and theologians such as Raymond Cottrell and Desmond Ford saw the glaring holes in the ship. No scholar or theologian from any other denomination has ever found the IJ/1844 anywhere in Scripture and they never will.

It's not there.

But the IJ ship sails on, holes shabbily patched, the crew frantically, desperately trying to patch the new ones appearing.

And when the S.S. IJ sinks to the bottom of the ocean with Clifford Goldstein and Bill Shea on deck playing Nearer My God To Thee on the violin, there will be many in denial who will be clinging to its bow right to the very bottom. And when the ship has rotted and drifted away with the current, they will still be desperately swimming around trying to piece the floating fragments together.

Just...sad.

If only the physical/mental/spiritual energy, manpower, and money wasted on trying to sustain this doctrine could be channeled into winning souls for Christ.

Wow, that would make too much sense.

(See here for an unedited, uncensored, free discussion on this issue):

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=42166866#post42166866http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=42166866&postcount=1

 

[joyoussong]

And this is pretty much the bottom line. There's no way around it.

Any doctrine that finds its origins in someone's dream is highly suspect. Who is Hiram Edson? What are his credentials? Why are we expected to just buy his 'vision' wholesale? And we build a whole doctrinal system around this man's claims? What if he was just experiencing indigestion from a bad supper? That is a pretty scary foundation to build any doctrine on, much less one that a whole denomination stands or falls on. And to claim that a doctrine which finds its origins in a dream can be Scripturally proven and sustained by the Bible alone...

Well, give me some mustard to eat with that baloney, that's all I can say.

Throw in the fact that the individual who backed and endorsed Edson (Crosier) repudiated the doctrine and claimed the whole thing was a hoax, and we have some serious problems, even though many Adventists are feign to admit it. Of course, their way to remedy that little setback is to just demonize Crosier and slander his character and integrity, claiming he gave up everything else as well, including the Sabbath. Well that's fine, but you still have this little thing called the IJ right over there, whose issues have nothing at all to do with whatever else Crosier repudiated.

It's not enough, it seems, that some of our own esteemed SDA scholars and theologians such as Raymond Cottrell and Desmond Ford saw the glaring holes in the ship. No scholar or theologian from any other denomination has ever found the IJ/1844 anywhere in Scripture and they never will.

It's not there.

But the IJ ship sails on, holes shabbily patched, the crew frantically, desperately trying to patch the new ones appearing.

And when the S.S. IJ sinks to the bottom of the ocean with Clifford Goldstein and Bill Shea on deck playing Nearer My God To Thee on the violin, there will be many in denial who will be clinging to its bow right to the very bottom. And when the ship has rotted and drifted away with the current, they will still be desperately swimming around trying to piece the floating fragments together.

Just...sad.

If only the physical/mental/spiritual energy, manpower, and money wasted on trying to sustain this doctrine could be channeled into winning souls for Christ.

Wow, that would make too much sense.

(See here for an unedited, uncensored, free discussion on this issue):

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=42166866#post42166866http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=42166866#post42166866http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=42166866#post42166866

Interesting thread.

"...the sanctuary cleansing theory gives a wicked denial of the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross."

This is sad.

 

[sentipente]

Interesting thread.

"...the sanctuary cleansing theory gives a wicked denial of the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross."

This is sad.

Let's not be too smug. Christian theology tends to deny the finished work of Christ by refusing to accept that He saved the entire human race two thousand years ago. This is not an Adventist problem.

 

[digdeep]

Let's not be too smug. Christian theology tends to deny the finished work of Christ by refusing to accept that He saved the entire human race two thousand years ago. This is not an Adventist problem.

are you saying no one will be lost?

DD

 

[sentipente]

are you saying no one will be lost?

DD

Let's deal with the facts before you go off into tangential opinions. What did Jesus Christ accomplish?

 

[digdeep]

Let's deal with the facts before you go off into tangential opinions. What did Jesus Christ accomplish?

Salvation for All man.

 

[sentipente]

Salvation for All man.

That double talk won't work here. You are trying to leave a way out.