The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

[Maria Billingsley]

I already provided the quotes. Deut 6:5 Lev 19:18 are you saying the greatest commandments Jesus gave in the OT He forgot about in the NC? But Paul didn’t? Rom 13:9

I'm sorry it's time for me to end this conversation. It seems to be going around in circles and is unfruitfull.
Thanks for sharing!
Be blessed.

 

[The Liturgist]

You keep saying it’s the thrust of the covenant, but from what I can read the New Covenant is about God writing His law in our hearts and minds, right where sin begins, in the heart. When we keep our rules over obeying God’s commandments Jesus said one’s heart is far from Him. Mat 15:3-14 because we are rebelling against what God placed there.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Galatians is referring to a law that is bewitching the Galatians, so obviously not the law God placed in our hearts and minds that God said He would not alter Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18-30

That’s simply not true. Galatians is referring to legalism - to the idea of salvation through adhering to a legal code, which is itself Pelagian and a rejection of the salvific grace provided by Christ our God.

There would be no point to Christ having died for our sins on the Cross if we were not to be forgiven for them.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I'm sorry it's time for me to end this conversation. It seems to be going around in circles and is unfruitfull.
Thanks for sharing!
Be blessed.

Ok Maria. I wish you well.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

That’s simply not true. Galatians is referring to legalism - to the idea of salvation through adhering to a legal code,

Please post one verse that says the law that bewitched the Galatians is the Ten Commandments, that the God of the universe personally wrote. Paul is addressing the view of the Jews that one must be circumcised in order to be saved and compelling new Gentile Christians coverts like Titus to be circumcised in order to hear the gospel and be saved . Gal 2:3 Basically teaching we can save ourselves and we can’t we need Jesus. Paul addressed this same issue in several letters.

Why Paul quoted directly from the book of the law and not the Ten Commandments

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

The book contained all the other laws aside from the Ten Commandments. The book of the law was placed outside the ark as a witness against for breaking God’s law- His personal Testimony Exo 31:18

Deut 31:24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying: 26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;

Hence why Paul contrasted these laws and came to this conclusion

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

If we don;t have God’s written code in our heart Heb 8:10 God’s will Psa 40:8 than we have our own law, our own righteousness, which makes us our own god.

God’s law is not meant to be burdensome, it’s meant to be kept because of our great love of Jesus Christ and a reflection of the change He has made inside us. 1 John 5:3 John 14:15 Exo 20:6 John 15:10

There would be no point to Christ having died for our sins on the Cross if we were not to be forgiven for them.

There would be no point for Christ to have died if we can continue sinning and breaking God’s law, which is a point Paul made pretty clear.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Keeping God’s law is from a changed heart, leaving the old man of sin and living a new life abiding in Christ obeying from the heart because we want to and love Jesus and following His great example He set forth for us John 15:4-10 1 John 2:6 no longer an external law, but embodied internally, kept through love faith and the power of the Holy Spirit John 14:15-18

Not once did I say anything about our sins not forgiven by Jesus not sure where you got that from, but we are told that once we learn the Truth of God’s Word and reject it, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. Heb 10:26-30.

 

[BobRyan]

The New Covenant will not be like the Old Covenant as scripture indicates.

true.

And you can find the New Covenant in Jer 31:31-34

31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

The New Covenant is more than keeping the 10 Commandments because it is now based on Love through His Holy Spirit.

The New Cov of Jer 31 was always based on Love and always required the Holy Spirit, the new heart, new birth, with Law of God written on the heart - the new heart.

 

[The Liturgist]

The New Cov of Jer 31 was always based on Love and always required the Holy Spirit, the new heart, new birth, with Law of God written on the heart - the new heart.

No one disputes that, but the Law of God is what is expressed by Jesus Christ, that there are two commandments, that we are to love God with all our heart, mind and soul, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. And furthermore, most importantly, the new covenant is one of grace and forgiveness. It is the covenant of the Gospel rather than forgiveness, predicated upon salvific faith.

While I would agree with many that the term works righteousness is often used in a misleading manner, in this case it is helpful, along with the Lutheran Law/Gospel dichotomy.

 

[The Liturgist]

Paul is addressing the view of the Jews that one must be circumcised

The text doesn’t say that, it merely refers to the Law, without further clarification, which means it would have included the Decalogue. We can assert this on the basis of exegetical analysis by cross referencing with Colossians chapter 2. The Patristic consensus concerning Galatians 3 is that it refers to Legalism, and the chapter amounts to a rejection of Legalism and Pelagianism.

And this is one area where Lutheran terminology is particularly helpful, as I have pointed out. I am not a Lutheran but I feel their doctrine is particularly helpful here, also considering that the Lutherans were the first denomination to embrace the novel concept of Sola Scriptura, which they embrace in a manner which is full, complete, and unlike the approach taken by some restorationists and radical reformed churches such as the Puritans and Anabaptists, does not ignore the importance of sacred tradition. Indeed with regards to Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide, I should say only the Lutheran definition of these concepts, shared by the other magisterial Protestants (Anglicans, Methodists and Calvinists) has any importance, since they defined it, and where other denominations redefine the concept, they ought rather to use new terminology to describe their doctrines, due to the difference between them and the existing consensus as to what the Solas refer to.

Of course the Eastern Orthodox Church rejects Sola Scriptura as a technical error, but nonetheless it is easy to respect the reasons behind the adoption of Sola Scriptura, which pertain to the problems in the Roman Church during the dark years between the start of the Great Schism with the Orthodox and the beginning of the Counter-Reformation at which time the Roman Church stopped the sale of indulgences and several other abusive practices which Luther complained of (to the extent now, that with the reading of scripture in the vernacular mandated even at the traditional Latin mass, which Luther continued to celebrate alongside masses in German, which is why there are so many Latin settings of the Roman mass by Lutheran composers - they were not written for use by Roman Catholics but by Evangelical Catholics of the Augsburg Confession, the Lutheran Orthodox movement.

Thus I suggest we move on to the issue of John ch. 3 and ch. 6 and Matthew ch. 2.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

That’s incorrect. The Decalogue was part of the Covenant with Israel, but Christ our True God explicitly declares His Blood, which we partake of in the Eucharist, to be the blood of the New Covenant, by which we are saved through His grace, by virtue of His all-atoning sacrifice on the Holy Cross.

The laws were given FIRST to God's chosen people ISRAEL, however the Decalogue clearly says foreigners can join as well I knew this question was to come please read post no 3 here is an excerpt;

Exodus 12:48-49 – The Law is the Same for Israelites and Strangers

"And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it. One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you."

God gave one law for both Israelites and non-Israelites who joined them, showing that His covenant was always open to those who chose to follow Him as it is today!

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

Since everyone except the Theotokos and other saints alive with Christ in Heaven awaiting the Last Judgement and the Life of the World to Come, continues to sin, even having the Holy Spirit, although it is true we can manage to sin less, no one can keep the commandments consistently.

this is speculation on your part, the bible says something else about what happens when we die, Sabbathblessings did explain this to you already.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

Strawman, I made no such argument.

Clearly, people can improve and sin less and overcome the sinful passions, because we have the example of Orthodox saints who did exactly that. But they never ceased to repent, for example, Abba Sisoes.

We also have the example of our Glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary, who did not commit any voluntary sin during her life, but still had to be saved by her Son from death, which results from original sin, which in Orthodoxy we call ancestral sin.

Sin in the West is misunderstood as forensic - it is regarded as being like religious crime, when in reality sin is a disease, a hereditary disease, inherited from Adam, which Christ, our savior, provided us a salve to cure us from it, in the form of the grace of Holy Baptism, which washes away sin, and the Eucharist, which remits sin, and other means of grace clearly established in the New Testament.

If we understand sin as a disease, we can understand why it is that people continue to return to the same sins over and over despite their desire not to. But God being merciful wants to deliver us from the harm of sin, and provides us with the grace of the Holy Spirit in order to do so.

Deuteronomy 30:16
"In that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess."

it is a COMMAND from GOD that we Keep his commandments, it is why Jesus was teaching them and asked the 12 to teach everything he did and said throughout the world (Matthew 28:16-20)
Through the Holy Spirit, sent by Christ, we are not only able but also empowered to follow God's commandments. Jesus' sacrifice and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers make it possible for us to live according to God’s will, fulfilling the commandments that were once difficult to uphold in our own strength. Jesus Himself promised this help when He said:


John 14:15-17

"If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you."

With the Holy Spirit living inside us, we are empowered to walk in obedience to God’s commands, not by our own power, but by the strength He provides. The Holy Spirit transforms our hearts, guiding us to live a life that reflects God's will.

Romans 8:4
"That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

Blessings

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

No, the covenant is the promise by Christ our True God to forgive us if we believe on Him as expressed in John 3:16. Christ atoned for all of our sins on the Cross, and in so doing, being both fully God and fully human, recreated humanity in the image of God, on the sixth day, just as He had created humanity on the sixth day in Genesis 1.*

* That Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son and Word of God, created us together with the Father and the Holy Spirit is made abundantly clear in John 1:1-3.

Why was Jesus teaching Repentance from Sin and teaching and magnifying the Commandments? the were they not important? The commandments are the new Covenabt pou in out hearts by those Who love Him

The Covenant are the 10 commandments as I have demonstrated in post 1, it is clear in scripture and in what Jesus did, believing is but one step to salvation.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

I think it would be a better idea to learn about the New Covenant from Christ and the apostles than from the dimmed, blurred ideas of the Old Testament.

Blurred? on the contrary, very clearly defined, the proof is in what Christ preached, repentance from sin and the teaching of the ten commandments that are the covenant, you cannot understand well the covenant if you do not know that the new covenant is defined by the ten commandments! see also Jeremiah 32:31-33.

Jesus said to follow the commandments very clearly in the New testament!

 

[The Liturgist]

Why was Jesus teaching Repentance from Sin and teaching and magnifying the Commandments?

Repentence from sin is extremely important. What makes you think I am rejecting that?

As for “magnifying the commandments”, Christ our true God explained what the commandments actually meant, by summarizing them into two simpler commandments, the performance of which is sufficient, namely, that we love God with all our heart, mind and soul and love our neighbor as ourselves.

By the way, I keep the Sabbath, atlhough SDA members disagree with me on what keeping the sabbath entails. I believe the Sabbath is kept through the Orthodox Vesperal Divine Liturgy on Holy Saturday, which commemorates the rest of Christ our True God in the tomb after recreating humanity in His image on the Holy and Life Giving Cross, as He had rested after creating us in Genesis.

 

[trophy33]

Blurred? on the contrary, very clearly defined

You should know that after the resurrection, Jesus had to explain the Old Testament scriptures to his disciples that those are all about Him.

The Old Testament scriptures are not clear, that is why Jews did not recognize Christ. They need to be explained in the light and from the perspective of Christianity.

Also, the apostles had to teach the churches to walk in the new way, they did not just say "follow the Old Testament".

 

[The Liturgist]

The laws were given FIRST to God's chosen people ISRAEL, however the Decalogue clearly says foreigners can join as well I knew this question was to come please read post no 3 here is an excerpt;

Exodus 12:48-49 – The Law is the Same for Israelites and Strangers


God gave one law for both Israelites and non-Israelites who joined them, showing that His covenant was always open to those who chose to follow Him as it is today!

The historical context of that verse is for people who moved to the promised land after the Israelites had reconquered it in, and also for people who joined the Israelites during the course of the Exodus, for example, Egyptians that they may have married.

 

[The Liturgist]

You should know that after the resurrection, Jesus had to explain the Old Testament scriptures to his disciples that they are all about Him.

That is true, but the Old Testament isn’t blurry or confusing when Christians approach it as Christ showed it to the Apostles. In other words, it made sense to them after He had explained it.

It is confusing if one tries to read it as something other than as Christological prophecy. Or if one tries to use the Old Testament to interpret the New rather than vice versa.

For example, if we regard Exodus as being solely the narrative of the departure of the Israelites from Egypt, and not about our flight from sin and worldliness, one finds oneself questioning why one is even reading it as scripture. But if we understand it as being about our exodus from the world and the things of a worldly and sinful nature, the book makes much more sense and is much more edifying.

 

[The Liturgist]

Deuteronomy 30:16
"In that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess."

it is a COMMAND from GOD that we Keep his commandments, it is why Jesus was teaching them and asked the 12 to teach everything he did and said throughout the world (Matthew 28:16-20)
Through the Holy Spirit, sent by Christ, we are not only able but also empowered to follow God's commandments. Jesus' sacrifice and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers make it possible for us to live according to God’s will, fulfilling the commandments that were once difficult to uphold in our own strength. Jesus Himself promised this help when He said:


John 14:15-17

"If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you."

With the Holy Spirit living inside us, we are empowered to walk in obedience to God’s commands, not by our own power, but by the strength He provides. The Holy Spirit transforms our hearts, guiding us to live a life that reflects God's will.

Romans 8:4
"That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

Blessings

It sounds like you’re teaching Sinless Perfectionism. Are you saying that Christians who have problems with sin but, having forgiven those who have trespassed against them, seek the forgiveness of Christ, will not obtain it?

 

[The Liturgist]

this is speculation on your part, the bible says something else about what happens when we die, Sabbathblessings did explain this to you already.

No it doesn’t - that the saints are alive in Heaven is made extremely clear via the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, and by the appearance of St. Elias and St, Moses at the Transfiguration, and likewise that those at risk of damnation are in a less blessed state is made clear as well.

Likewise, numerous scriptural texts refute annhilationism, but I don’t think we can discuss that in General Theology; if memory serves annhilationism can only be discussed in Controversial Christian Theology.

At any rate I did not see a post by SabbathBlessings on the issue, but if he did make such a post my answer would remain unchanged, since what Scripture says is extremely clear, and we know that the traditional interpretation of Scripture was the interpretation of the early church from surviving Patristic texts.

I will also note that all surviving ancient liturgical texts include prayer for the dead, which is also practiced by the Orthodox, Anglicans, and many denominations in addition to Roman Catholics. However, the Orthodox, Anglicans, and others do not believe in purgatory.

 

[The Liturgist]

Our loyalty is to God, not a church and with shared church beliefs it usually means compromise and we are not to ever compromise God’s Truth for the sake of unity.

The Orthodox Church was established by Christ our True God, and is His very Body, as is attested in Scripture, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it, as we are promised in Matthew 16:18 , and the Orthodox Church does not compromise with other denominations concerning doctrine. Indeed for this reason many Orthodox churches such as the Georgian Orthodox Church are either not members of, or have withdrawn from, the World Council of Churches, due to the tendency of the WCC to be dominated by the agenda of the liberal mainline Protestant churches like those of the Porvoo Communion.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The text doesn’t say that,

Please follow along, it exactly says this....

Gal 3:2 And I went up [a]by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), 5 to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

6 But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God [b]shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me. 7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, [c]Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do.

11 Now when [d]Peter had come to Antioch, I [e]withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing [f]those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, [g]why do you compel Gentiles to live as [h]Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not [i]justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died [j]in vain.”

So what law are the referring to, the law of circumcision which they were compelling Titus to get to hear the gospel and be saved like Paul also said in other letters Acts 15:1 as if they could save themselves and no longer need the blood of Christ, this is what Paul was teaching, not obeying God's personal written Testimony Exo 31:18, mans all Ecc 12:13-14 that is perfect for converting our souls is not the law that is bewitching them. Like only worshipping the One True God is bewitching them, or not murdering their neigh is bewitching them. Its a sad teaching..


What is the main theme throughout Galatians is the law of circumcision

Gal 2:3,7,8,9,12, Gal 5:2,6,11 Gal 6:12,13,15.

The context tells us what law is being referred to because there are lots of different laws, and throwing out a law that was never in the context or trying to make it say the perfect law written by the finger of God is the law that bewitched the Galatians is not really understanding the character if God because He gave His law to show us the righteous way to live in His image which His law reflects His character- perfect, holy, righteous,

The times Paul IS referring to the Ten Commandments says when not keeping them, one will not see heaven. How confusing would that be to tell them the Ten Commandments is bewitching you Galatians yet if you break them, you will not inherit the kingdom of God which results in death.


Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, [e]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

it merely refers to the Law, without further clarification, which means it would have included the Decalogue.

Not according to Paul 1 Cor 7:19 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

There are many different laws Neh 9:13 and not understanding the differences and throwing a law out that is never taught in scriptures and something Jesus kept who is our example I do not believe is going to work out so well according to God's Word.

Anway, I think it's time for me to move along. I do wish you well.