-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
The struggle to replace the Bible
- Thread starter Masihi
- Start date
Nobody answered the following portion of my post. To reiterate and expand on that portion of the post, I wish to point out that the original Jewish *fairytale of Solomon (as found in Targum) never makes mention of a god BUT we see the quran honors "Allah" nine (9) times!
As in most of the quran, "allah" is given a prominent position in the sura even though the original Jewish story never mentions a god.
Sura 27:
(24) ..I found her and her people worshipping the sun instead of Allah;
(25) ..So that they worship not Allah,
(26) ..Allah; there is no God save Him, the Lord of the tremendous Throne.
(30) Lo! it is from Solomon, and lo! it is: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent,
(36) ..But that which Allah hath given me is better
(40) ..This is of the bounty of Allah,
(42) ..We were given the knowledge before her and we had surrendered (to Allah).
(43) ..And (all) that she was wont to worship instead of Allah hindered her,
(44) ..and I surrender with Solomon unto Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
* fairytale: using the strict definition of the word: "a story about magical and imaginary beings and lands"
In the Targum of Esther (Jewish story of Solomon), mention is made of Solomon speaking with a bird, genies, and his palace is made of glass and has glass floors.
As in most of the quran, "allah" is given a prominent position in the sura even though the original Jewish story never mentions a god.
Sura 27:
(24) ..I found her and her people worshipping the sun instead of Allah;
(25) ..So that they worship not Allah,
(26) ..Allah; there is no God save Him, the Lord of the tremendous Throne.
(30) Lo! it is from Solomon, and lo! it is: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent,
(36) ..But that which Allah hath given me is better
(40) ..This is of the bounty of Allah,
(42) ..We were given the knowledge before her and we had surrendered (to Allah).
(43) ..And (all) that she was wont to worship instead of Allah hindered her,
(44) ..and I surrender with Solomon unto Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
* fairytale: using the strict definition of the word: "a story about magical and imaginary beings and lands"
In the Targum of Esther (Jewish story of Solomon), mention is made of Solomon speaking with a bird, genies, and his palace is made of glass and has glass floors.
Upvote
0
Another,
Again, Talmud are written expositories by jewish rabbi on Biblical material to help explain it and are read to children on special occasions. A fairytale in its strictest definition, contains added imagery, birds, animals, fanciful beings such as genies, fanciful structures.
Again, Talmud are written expositories by jewish rabbi on Biblical material to help explain it and are read to children on special occasions. A fairytale in its strictest definition, contains added imagery, birds, animals, fanciful beings such as genies, fanciful structures.
Upvote
0
Not Ezra but Onias' sleep is found in the Talmud (Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds). These are the sources for the quran's altered version as found in sura 2.259. Notice an 'ass' carries over into the quran. Onias' sleep and destruction of the 1st Jewish Temple followed by exile of israelites and their return after 70 yrs; relates to Psalm 126.1 "When the Lord brought us back to Jerusalem, it was like a dream!" These stories are ORAL TRADITIONS (Talmud) told by Rabbis and NOT historical events.
Babylonian Talmud, tractate Taanit, 23a
Onias, the drawer of magic circles, the Essene miracle-worker, saw an old man plant a carob-tree, and said to him, 'Do you expect to eat the fruit of this tree? Mark well! It will take seventy years to mature.'..Onias, then, went and took his meal, and fell asleep, and slept during seventy years, while the very stones around him had in the meantime yielded moss and brushwood to conceal him from the world around.... 'Then, I must have slept seventy years,' exclaimed Onias. But the she-ass, too, which he had with him, had in the meantime given birth to two generations of asses.
Jerusalem Talmud a little different:
"Onias, the grandson of the well-known Onias, went shortly before the destruction of the Temple, up the hill to look after his labourers in the field, when a mighty storm overtook him and he took shelter in a cave near by, and fell asleep, and slept for seventy years. In the meantime the old Temple was destroyed and the new one built in its stead."
Babylonian Talmud, tractate Taanit, 23a
Onias, the drawer of magic circles, the Essene miracle-worker, saw an old man plant a carob-tree, and said to him, 'Do you expect to eat the fruit of this tree? Mark well! It will take seventy years to mature.'..Onias, then, went and took his meal, and fell asleep, and slept during seventy years, while the very stones around him had in the meantime yielded moss and brushwood to conceal him from the world around.... 'Then, I must have slept seventy years,' exclaimed Onias. But the she-ass, too, which he had with him, had in the meantime given birth to two generations of asses.
Jerusalem Talmud a little different:
"Onias, the grandson of the well-known Onias, went shortly before the destruction of the Temple, up the hill to look after his labourers in the field, when a mighty storm overtook him and he took shelter in a cave near by, and fell asleep, and slept for seventy years. In the meantime the old Temple was destroyed and the new one built in its stead."
Upvote
0
As the case with the Targum of Esther (Solomon), the quran again includes "allah" into the story of Onias even though the original story as written by the rabbi in approx. 100AD, makes no mention of a god. The quran even makes "allah" the narrator of the story never giving rabbi Onias any credit as author.
Sura 2:259:
"Or hast thou not heard of the like of him who passed by a town {Jerusalem} which had fallen down upon its roofs {destruction of 1st temple} and exclaimed, `When will "allah" restore it to life after its destruction?' Then "allah" caused him to die for a hundred years, then he raised him and said, `How long hast thou remained in this state?' He answered, `I have remained a day {what seemed like a night sleep} or part of a day.' "allah" said, `It is so but thou hast also remained in this state for a hundred years. Now look at thy food and thy drink; they have not rotted {dates and water} and look at thy ass. And we have done this that we may make thee a sign unto men. And look at the bones,{soreness} how we set them and then clothe them with flesh.' And when this became clear to him, he said, `I know that "allah" has the power to do all that he wills.'"
Sura 2:259:
"Or hast thou not heard of the like of him who passed by a town {Jerusalem} which had fallen down upon its roofs {destruction of 1st temple} and exclaimed, `When will "allah" restore it to life after its destruction?' Then "allah" caused him to die for a hundred years, then he raised him and said, `How long hast thou remained in this state?' He answered, `I have remained a day {what seemed like a night sleep} or part of a day.' "allah" said, `It is so but thou hast also remained in this state for a hundred years. Now look at thy food and thy drink; they have not rotted {dates and water} and look at thy ass. And we have done this that we may make thee a sign unto men. And look at the bones,{soreness} how we set them and then clothe them with flesh.' And when this became clear to him, he said, `I know that "allah" has the power to do all that he wills.'"
Upvote
0
smaneck
Baha'i
[QUOTE="Masihi, post: 68113577, member: 267994]the true origin of the sura should put finality to our doubts as to the quran.[/QUOTE]
I have no doubts about the Qur'an whatsoever anymore than I have doubts about Genesis even though I know so many of the stories there are based on Babylonian myths.
I have no doubts about the Qur'an whatsoever anymore than I have doubts about Genesis even though I know so many of the stories there are based on Babylonian myths.
Upvote
0
DevinF
Member
- Jun 3, 2015
- 12
- 0
- 37
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Pentecostal
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Constitution
Hello Smaneck,
I hope you are well.
Was this post intended to be taken as sarcastic? If so, fine, if not, then I must correct you and state that this is terribly out of context.
Devin
Upvote
0
Another,
Reading Midrash is an enjoyable pastime. These Jewish (Non-Biblical) writings contain wise sayings and *fairytales meant to accompany actual Biblical accounts. A Jewish Rabbi Huna wrote the following in about 200AD:
""Adam and his mate came and sat by the corpse, weeping and mourning for him, but they did not know what to do with Hevel's (Abel) body. A raven whose companion had just died said: I will teach Adam what to do. The raven took his dead companion, dug up the earth before the eyes of Adam and his mate, and buried him in it. Adam said: We will do as the raven. At once he took Hevel's corpse and buried it in the ground.""
The Midrash is the source material for what is found slightly reworded in the quran, sura 5.31:
"Then allah sent a raven which scratched in the ground, that he might show him how to hide the corpse of his brother (Abel). He said, `Woe is me! Am I not able to be even like this raven so that I may hide the corpse of my brother?' And then he became remorseful."
There's more to come detailing 5.32....
* fairytale/ fable definition: "a short story, typically with animals as characters, conveying a moral." We see animals speaking to one another and acting on behalf of other animals in the Midrash.
Reading Midrash is an enjoyable pastime. These Jewish (Non-Biblical) writings contain wise sayings and *fairytales meant to accompany actual Biblical accounts. A Jewish Rabbi Huna wrote the following in about 200AD:
""Adam and his mate came and sat by the corpse, weeping and mourning for him, but they did not know what to do with Hevel's (Abel) body. A raven whose companion had just died said: I will teach Adam what to do. The raven took his dead companion, dug up the earth before the eyes of Adam and his mate, and buried him in it. Adam said: We will do as the raven. At once he took Hevel's corpse and buried it in the ground.""
The Midrash is the source material for what is found slightly reworded in the quran, sura 5.31:
"Then allah sent a raven which scratched in the ground, that he might show him how to hide the corpse of his brother (Abel). He said, `Woe is me! Am I not able to be even like this raven so that I may hide the corpse of my brother?' And then he became remorseful."
There's more to come detailing 5.32....
* fairytale/ fable definition: "a short story, typically with animals as characters, conveying a moral." We see animals speaking to one another and acting on behalf of other animals in the Midrash.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
smaneck
Baha'i
Well, congratulations! You've managed to insult two Abrahamic religions at once. The midrash is not made up of children's fables. The are part and parcel of the Jewish oral tradition. I don't doubt that the Qur'anic account is based on that. So what? The Genesis account of the flood is based on Mesopotamian myths. And if you just leave it at that you miss the entire point. We only find meaning in these myths when we ask ourselves the question "Why is this story being told?" not "where did this story originally come from?"
And yes, the Qur'an is still the Word of God even if it contains myths. Ditto with the Bible. The only people who object to this are those who don't really understand the nature of myths.
Upvote
0
Only you choose to see it as an insult; the intention of showing the source of the quran is to encourage dialogue with muslims.
No, the Bible does not contain myths, you denigrate the Bible by saying so. Those Babylonian stories of the flood originated with the Hebrew people living amongst them.
Upvote
0
smaneck
Baha'i
If your intent was not to denigrate the Qur'an you would not have referred to the Midrash stories they are based on as 'children's fables.' That is an attack, not an invitation to dialogue.
So referring to these stories found in the Midrash and the Qur'an as 'children's fables' is not denigrating but suggesting the Bible contains myths is denigrating. Love that logic!
As I said, besides being hypocritical you don't understand the nature of myths. Myths are not simply untrue stories. They are stories whose meaning transcends whether they literally happened.
The Hebrew people were not living among the Old Babylonian people who wrote those stories. The Hebrew people are brought to Babylon during the Chaldean Empire which arose a thousand years later.
The Babylonian account was written a full thousand years before the Hebrew account was written.
But nice try.
Upvote
0
The only attack I see is your attitude towards the subject matter. I already asked you before to not reply unless you have something positive to say.
You dont understand the definition of "fable"?
There is evidence the Hebrews interacted with Assyrians well ahead of their captivity.
Upvote
0
Hello Susan.
I hope you are well.
As you know, the majority of Muslims believe that the Qur’an is uncreated (not the physical work that we hold in our hands, of course, but the very words that make up the Book).
Al-Ghazzali writes:
‘And (He taught us) that the Qur’an, the Taurah, the Gospels and the Psalms are His books revealed to His Messengers, and that the Qur'an is recited with tongues, written in pages, protected in hearts, and that in spite of that is beginning-less standing with the essence of Allah.’
(The Foundation of All Beliefs: Page 4).
If the Qur’an is uncreated - existing with Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) since before the human race - then clearly it can contain no ‘borrowings’ at all. It is the original work. It might then be argued that those truths we now call ‘borrowings’ were given to people in the Creator’s own time and manner - by way of inspiration - to prepare people for the coming of the Prophets. The Babylonian creation myths that underpin Genesis might be an example of this process. This is just a thought, and I’m not pushing it; although some folk might!
To those who say that the Qur’an is created, and has borrowings, I reply:
In his work ‘On Christian Doctrine, in Four Books’ Saint Augustine writes:
‘For God loves us, and Holy Scripture frequently sets before us the love He has towards us. In what way then does He love us? As objects of use or as objects of enjoyment? If He enjoys us, He must be in need of good from us, and no sane man will say that; for all the good we enjoy is either Himself, or what comes from Himself. And no one can be ignorant or in doubt as to the fact that the light stands in no need of the glitter of the things it has itself lit up. The Psalmist says most plainly, "I said to the LORD, Thou art my God, for Thou neediest not my goodness." He does not enjoy us then, but makes use of us. For if He neither enjoys nor uses us, I am at a loss to discover in what way He can love us.’
(Book 1: Chap. 31).
Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) loves us and makes use of us; and as Saint Augustine rightly says: ‘Let every good and true Christian understand that wherever truth may be found, it belongs to his Master’ (Book 2: Chap. 18).
The Saint makes it perfectly clear that: ‘Whatever has been rightly said that is true and in harmony with our faith, we are not only not to shrink from it, but to claim it for our own use.’ (Book 2: Chap 40). The Muslims would say that if this is good enough for Saint Augustine and the Christians then it is surely good enough for the Exalted!
Muhammad Asad (Leopold Weiss) was a Jew who converted to Islam and later served as one of the first Pakistani ambassadors to the United Nations. In his ‘Message of The Qur'an’- acclaimed as one of the best translations of the Quran into English he writes:
‘THE PROPHET and most of his close Companions used to refer to this surah (number 27) as Ta-Sin (the letter-symbols which precede its first verse). In later times, however, it came to be known as An-Naml after a word occurring in verse 18, which, because of its association with Solomonic legends, caught and held the imagination of countless Muslims who listened to or read the Qur'an. The Qur'an often employs such legends as a vehicle for allegories expressing certain universal ethical truths; and it employs them for the simple reason that even before the advent of Islam they had become so firmly embedded in the poetic memories of the Arabs - the people in whose language the Qur'an was expressed and to whom it was addressed in the first instance - that most of these legends had acquired, as it were, a cultural reality of their own, which made a denial or a confirmation of their mythical origin utterly irrelevant. Within the context of the Qur'an, the only thing that is relevant in this respect is the spiritual truth underlying each one of these legends: a many-sided, many-layered truth which the Qur'an invariably brings out, sometimes explicitly, sometimes elliptically, often allegorically, but always with a definite bearing on some of the hidden depths and conflicts within our own, human psyche.’
(The Message of The Quran: Page 535).
In both the Qur’an and the Bible Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) uses myth and legend to convey sacred truths. Why would this be a problem?
I hope you are well.
As you know, the majority of Muslims believe that the Qur’an is uncreated (not the physical work that we hold in our hands, of course, but the very words that make up the Book).
Al-Ghazzali writes:
‘And (He taught us) that the Qur’an, the Taurah, the Gospels and the Psalms are His books revealed to His Messengers, and that the Qur'an is recited with tongues, written in pages, protected in hearts, and that in spite of that is beginning-less standing with the essence of Allah.’
(The Foundation of All Beliefs: Page 4).
If the Qur’an is uncreated - existing with Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) since before the human race - then clearly it can contain no ‘borrowings’ at all. It is the original work. It might then be argued that those truths we now call ‘borrowings’ were given to people in the Creator’s own time and manner - by way of inspiration - to prepare people for the coming of the Prophets. The Babylonian creation myths that underpin Genesis might be an example of this process. This is just a thought, and I’m not pushing it; although some folk might!
To those who say that the Qur’an is created, and has borrowings, I reply:
In his work ‘On Christian Doctrine, in Four Books’ Saint Augustine writes:
‘For God loves us, and Holy Scripture frequently sets before us the love He has towards us. In what way then does He love us? As objects of use or as objects of enjoyment? If He enjoys us, He must be in need of good from us, and no sane man will say that; for all the good we enjoy is either Himself, or what comes from Himself. And no one can be ignorant or in doubt as to the fact that the light stands in no need of the glitter of the things it has itself lit up. The Psalmist says most plainly, "I said to the LORD, Thou art my God, for Thou neediest not my goodness." He does not enjoy us then, but makes use of us. For if He neither enjoys nor uses us, I am at a loss to discover in what way He can love us.’
(Book 1: Chap. 31).
Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) loves us and makes use of us; and as Saint Augustine rightly says: ‘Let every good and true Christian understand that wherever truth may be found, it belongs to his Master’ (Book 2: Chap. 18).
The Saint makes it perfectly clear that: ‘Whatever has been rightly said that is true and in harmony with our faith, we are not only not to shrink from it, but to claim it for our own use.’ (Book 2: Chap 40). The Muslims would say that if this is good enough for Saint Augustine and the Christians then it is surely good enough for the Exalted!
Muhammad Asad (Leopold Weiss) was a Jew who converted to Islam and later served as one of the first Pakistani ambassadors to the United Nations. In his ‘Message of The Qur'an’- acclaimed as one of the best translations of the Quran into English he writes:
‘THE PROPHET and most of his close Companions used to refer to this surah (number 27) as Ta-Sin (the letter-symbols which precede its first verse). In later times, however, it came to be known as An-Naml after a word occurring in verse 18, which, because of its association with Solomonic legends, caught and held the imagination of countless Muslims who listened to or read the Qur'an. The Qur'an often employs such legends as a vehicle for allegories expressing certain universal ethical truths; and it employs them for the simple reason that even before the advent of Islam they had become so firmly embedded in the poetic memories of the Arabs - the people in whose language the Qur'an was expressed and to whom it was addressed in the first instance - that most of these legends had acquired, as it were, a cultural reality of their own, which made a denial or a confirmation of their mythical origin utterly irrelevant. Within the context of the Qur'an, the only thing that is relevant in this respect is the spiritual truth underlying each one of these legends: a many-sided, many-layered truth which the Qur'an invariably brings out, sometimes explicitly, sometimes elliptically, often allegorically, but always with a definite bearing on some of the hidden depths and conflicts within our own, human psyche.’
(The Message of The Quran: Page 535).
In both the Qur’an and the Bible Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) uses myth and legend to convey sacred truths. Why would this be a problem?
Upvote
0
Similar threads
