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The story of homeless man Angelo by Rick Joyner!

Do you feel that this story is inspired by God?

  • Yes, why in the world would the Devil give something this good?????

  • No, Pastor Rick Joyner has made too many weird statements on other subjects...

  • No, Rick Joyner is a brilliant writer but writes out of his own mind and heart!

  • Yes, this story has the power to change lives and sure inspires me to go to the homeless.

  • Yes, The Vision given to Rick Joyner is part of the outpouring predicted by Joel.

  • No, Rick Joyner is just engaging in self promotion...but he is a good writer!


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DennisTate

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I just asked somebody if they had ever read this so I guess this is a good place to begin that writing as a separate thread.....I think I might just post a poll along with this one just for the fun of it????



Who pleases Jesus the most?

Extract from The Final Quest by Rick Joyner

He then stopped and I turned to look at those in the thrones next to us. We were still in the place where the very highest kings were sitting. Then I recogniozed a man who was close by.

"Sir, I know you from somewhere, but I just cannot remember where."

"You once saw me in a vision," he replied.

I immediately remembered, and I was shocked! "So you were a real person?"

"Yes," he replied.

I then began to remember the day when as a young Christian I had become frustrated with some issues in my life. I went out into the middle of a battlefield park near my apartment and determined to wait until the Lord spoke to me. As I sat reading my Bible, I was caught up in a vision, one of the first that I ever had.

In the vision I saw a man who was zealously serving the Lord. He was continually witnessing to people, teaching and visiting the sick to pray for them. He was very zealous for the Lord, and had a genuine love for people. Then I saw another man who was obviously a tramp or a homeless man. A small kitten wandered into his path and he started to kick it, but restrained himself, but still shoved it rather harshly out of the way with his foot. Then the Lord asked me which of these men pleased Him the most.

"The first," I said without hesitating.

"No, the second," He responded, and began to tell me their stories.

The first man had been raised in a wonderful family, which had always known the Lord. He grew up in a thriving church, and then attended one of the best Bible Colleges. He had been given 100 portions of His love, but he was using only 75.
The second man had been deaf. He was abused and kept in a dark, cold attic until he was found by the authorities when he was eight years old. He had then been shifted from one institution to another where the abuse continued. Finally he was turned out on the streets. To overcome all this the Lord had only given him three portions of His love, but he had mustered every bit of it to fight the rage in his heart to keep from hurting the kitten...

Angelo


I now looked at that man, a king sitting on a throne far more glorious than Solomon could have even imagined. Hosts of angels were arrayed about him, waiting to do his bidding. I turned to the Lord in awe. I still just could not believe he was real, much less one of the great kings.

"Lord, please tell me the rest of his story," I begged.

"Of course, that is why we are here. Angelo was so faithful with the little that I had given to him, I gave him three more portions of My love. He used all of that to quit stealing. He almost starved, but he refused to take anything that was not his. He bought his food with what he could make collecting bottles, and occasionally finding someone who would let him do yard work. He could not hear but he had learned to read, so I sent him a gospel tract. As he read it the Spirit opened his heart, and he gave his life to Me. I again doubled the portions of My love to him and he faithfully used all of them. He wanted to share Me with others, but he could not speak. Even though he lived in such poverty, he started spending over half of everything he made on gospel tracts to give out on street corners."

"How many did he lead to you?" I asked, thinking that it must have been multitudes for him to be sitting with the kings.

"One," the Lord answered. "I let him lead a dying alcoholic to Me to encourage him. It encouraged him so much he would have stood on that corner for many more years just to bring another soul to repentance. But all of heaven was entreating Me to bring him here, and I, too, wanted him to receive his reward."

"He was faithful with all that I gave him"

"But what did he do to become a king?" I asked.

"He was faithful with all that he was given, he overcame all until he became like Me, and he died a martyr."

"But what did he overcome, and how was he martyred?"

He overcame the world with My love. Very few have overcome so much with so little. Many of My people dwell in homes that kings would have envied just a century ago because of their conveniences, but do not appreciate them, while Angelo would so appreciate a cardboard box on a cold night that he would turn it into a glorious temple of My presence. He began to love everyone and everything. He would rejoice more over an apple than My people do over a great feast. He was faithful with all that I gave him, even though it wasn't very much compared to what I gave others, including you. I showed him to you in a vision because you passed by him many times. You even once pointed him out to one of your friends and spoke of him."

"I did? What did I say?"

"You said, 'There is another one of those Elijahs who must have escaped from the bus station.' You said he was 'a religious nut' who was sent by the enemy to turn people off the gospel."

This was the worst blow that I had yet suffered in this experience. I was more than shocked, I was appalled. I tried to remember the specific incident but I couldn't, simply because there were so many others like it. I had never had much compassion for filthy street preachers who seemed to me that they were specifically sent to turn people off the gospel.

"I am sorry Lord. I'm really sorry."

"And you are forgiven," He quickly responded. "And you are right. There are many who try to preach the gospel on the streets, for wrong, and even perverted reasons. Even so, there are many who are sincere, even if they are untrained and unlearned. You must not judge by appearances. There are many true servants who look like he did as there are among the polished professionals in the great cathedrals and organizations that men have built in My Name."
 

DennisTate

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Here is part two:

"He was My knock upon their door"

He then motioned for me to look up at Angelo. When I turned he had descended the steps to his throne and was right in front of me. Opening his arms he gave me a great hug and kissed my forehead like a father. Love poured over me and through me until I felt that it would overload my nervous system. When he finally released me I was staggering as if I were drunk, but it was a wonderful feeling. It was love like I had never felt it.

"He could have imparted that to you on earth," the Lord continued. "He had much to give to My people, but they would not come near him. Even My prophets avoided him. He grew in the faith by buying a Bible and a couple of books that he read over and over. He tried to go to churches but he could not find one that would receive him. If they would have taken him in they would have taken Me in. He was My knock upon their door."

I was learning a new definition of grief. "How did he die?" I asked, remembering that he had been martyred, half expecting that I was somehow even responsible for it.

"He froze to death trying to keep an old wino alive who had passed out in the cold."

As I looked at Angelo I just could not believe how hard my heart was. Even so, I did not understand how this made him a martyr, which I had thought was a title reserved for those who who died because they would not compromise their testimony.

"Lord, I know that he is truly an overcomer," I remarked. "And it is so just for him to be here. But are those who die that way also considered to be martyrs?"

"Angelo was a martyr everyday that he lived. He would only do enough for himself to stay alive, and he gladly sacrificed his life to save a needy friend. As Paul wrote to the Corinthians, even if you give your body to be burned, but do not have love, it counts as nothing. But, when you give yourself with love, it counts for much. Angelo died everyday because he did not live for himself, but for others. While on earth he always considered himself the least of the saints, but he was one of the greatest. As you have already learned, many of those who consider themselves to be the greatest, end up being the least here. Angelo did not die for a doctrine, or even his testimony, but he did die for Me."

"Lord, please help me to remember this. Please do not let me forget what I am seeing here when I return," I begged.

"If My people would look at others the way I do...

"Wisdom is to see with My eyes, and not to judge by appearances. I showed you Angelo in the vision so that you would recognize him when you passed by him on the street. If you had shared with him the knowledge of his past that I had shown in the vision, he would have given his life to Me then. You could have then discipled this great king, and he would have had a great impact on My church. If My people would look at others the way I do, Angelo and many others like him, would have been recognized. They would have been paraded into the greatest pulpits, and My people would have come from the ends of the earth to sit at their feet, because by doing this, they would have sat at My feet. He would have taught you to love, and how to invest the gifts that I have given you so that you could bear much more fruit."

I was so ashamed that I did not want to even look at the Lord, but finally I turned back to Him as I felt the pain driving me toward self-centeredness again. When I looked at Him I was virtually blinded by His glory. It took a while, but gradually my eyes adjusted so that I could see Him.

"Remember that you are forgiven," He said. "I am not showing you these things to condemn you, but to teach you. Always remember that compassion, will remove the veils from your soul faster than anything else."
 
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DennisTate

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I personally have a very very different background than Pastor Rick Joyner.

If I had read his book The Vision back in 1988, well frankly, I might not have finished it even if somebody had given it to me as a gift?!?!

Then again I got into the habit of reading a lot as a child so I might have read it. Even at this time there are statements in Rick Joyner's writings that make almost no sense to me whatsoever! Here is an example:

The Power of the Cross vs. Human Compassion

As we began to walk again, Angelo spoke, "Please remember my friends, the homeless. Many will love our Savior if someone will go to them."

His words had such power in them that I was too moved to answer, so I just nodded. I knew that those words were the decree of a great king, and a great friend of the King of kings.

"Lord, will you help me to help the homeless?"

"I will help any who help them," He responded. "When you love those whom I love you will always know My help. They will be given the Helper by the measure of their love. You have asked many times for more of My anointing; that's how you will receive it. Love those whom I love. As you love them you love Me. As you give to them you have given to Me, and I will give more to you in return."

My mind drifted to my nice home and all of the other possessions I had. I was not wealthy, but by earthly standards I knew that I did live much better than kings had just a century before. I had never felt guilty about it before, but I did now. Somehow it was a good feeling, but at the same time it did not feel right. Again I looked back to the Lord as I knew He would help me...

"Remember what I said about how My perfect law of love made light and darkness distinct. When confusion such as you are feeling comes, you know that what you are experiencing is not My perfect law of love. I delight in giving My family good gifts, just as you do yours. I want you to enjoy them, and appreciate them. Only, you must not worship them, and you must freely share them when I call you to. I could wave My hand and instantly remove all poverty from the earth. There will be a day of reckoning when the mountains and high places are brought down, and the poor and oppressed are raised up, but I must do it. Human compassion is just as contrary to Me as human oppression. Human compassion is used as a substitute for the power of My cross. I have not vcalled you to sacrifice, but to obey. Sometimes you will have to sacrifice to obey Me, but if your sacrifice is not done in obedience, it will separate us...

"I only did what I saw My Father doing..."

"You are guilty for the way you misjudged this great king when he was My servant on earth. Do not judge anyone without inquiring of Me. You have missed more encounters that I have set up for you than you have ever imagined, simply because you were not sensitive to Me. However, I did not show you this to make you feel guilty, but to bring you to repentance so that you will not continue to miss them. If you just react in guilt you will begin to do things to compensate for your guilt, which is an affront to My cross. My cross alone can remove your guilt..."

"...Even I did not heal all those for whom I had compassion, but I only did what I saw My Father doing. You must not just do things out of compassion, but in obedience to My Spirit. Only then will your compassion have the power of redemption... Without Me you can do nothing that will benefit My kingdom or promote My gospel..."

"...Love is My greatest weapon. Love will never fail. Love will be the power that destroys the works of the devil. And love will be what brings My kingdom. Love is the banner over My army. Under this banner you must now fight." (Rick Joyner, The Vision)

The following two sentences make almost no sense to me whatsoever:

Human compassion is just as contrary to Me as human oppression. Human compassion is used as a substitute for the power of My cross.

Say what????????????!!!!!!!!

How in the world could "human compass be just as contrary to Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua as human oppression???????????????????"

I do actually understand why so many people find the writings of Rick Joyner offensive!!!!

I do too but I am open to the idea that many of the highly offensive things he writes may be in the league of some of the offensive statements made to people during near death experience accounts. At the time of the Apostle Paul some of these things might well be "unlawful to be uttered" but.....we are now living in the time period when the full plan of God can finally be understood.....even the wrath of God which to my thinking has much to do with His astonishing and deep and sophisticated sense of humor!!!!
 
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DennisTate

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"Human compassion is just as contrary to Me as human oppression. Human compassion is used as a substitute for the power of My cross."

......The only explanation for this that I can come up with is that Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua wishes to rule in every heart and every mind and wants us to even agree with what He is thinking and feeling.........Does that make sense?????????
 
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drich0150

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In our soceity we hinge content on the credablity of the witness, or how this information was obtained, rather than taking the message and judging it's content. Which was secondary lesson in this story. (In that God would have use some of these side walk preachers to pull his church together, but because they did not have a pedagree they are shunned and ignored.)

With any True message or 'revelation' From God, the messenger is of little importance. It is the message we should look at. This is why it is so desperatly important that we know our bibles. So that we can turn to it Because otherwise we are subject to the intentions of a messenger, and his hidden intentions. (Which education, status and esteem have no bearing on.) Look at how these 'qualities' are exaulted in our educational system and also look at the coruption and hidden agendas they push under the guiles of being 'properly educated.' So just because a man presents himself with those qualities does not mean he does not have a hidden agenda..

I don't know the author of this book nor do I really care. I take it though that you see him as a benny henn type. Even so God uses these guys despite their potentially self serving efforts. We must learn to seperate the message from the messenger and examine what was said rather than putting so much importance on who said it. or how they intend to use the revelation given them.

This goes into another question you asked would the devil give such a good message to someone looking to serve him rather than God? The answer is yes. This is a simple half truth. The message is the 1/2 true part and things like this are often paired with other messages or an open agenda to push another doctrine or a line of thought, that would not stand on it's own merrit. Again however, if we learn to seperate the message from the messenger then we can reclaim the truth of God's revelation away from the person who would use it for his own gain and give it back to God. Which all comes back to knowing your bible so you can identify God's truth in a message like this.
 
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drich0150

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I personally have a very very different background than Pastor Rick Joyner.

If I had read his book The Vision back in 1988, well frankly, I might not have finished it even if somebody had given it to me as a gift?!?!

Then again I got into the habit of reading a lot as a child so I might have read it. Even at this time there are statements in Rick Joyner's writings that make almost no sense to me whatsoever! Here is an example:



The following two sentences make almost no sense to me whatsoever:



Say what????????????!!!!!!!!

How in the world could "human compass be just as contrary to Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua as human oppression???????????????????"

I do actually understand why so many people find the writings of Rick Joyner offensive!!!!

I do too but I am open to the idea that many of the highly offensive things he writes may be in the league of some of the offensive statements made to people during near death experience accounts. At the time of the Apostle Paul some of these things might well be "unlawful to be uttered" but.....we are now living in the time period when the full plan of God can finally be understood.....even the wrath of God which to my thinking has much to do with His astonishing and deep and sophisticated sense of humor!!!!

This is exactly what I had mentioned in my last post. When the truth of God's word is paired with some hidden agenda. Because the non biblical teaching could quickly be identified and dismissed on it's own the half truth was paired with it to given this second half legitmacy. For the bottom line is God did not call us to seperate out guilt, nor does the cross absolve guilt. Guilt in the proper context is good. Look at Paul's lement in Romans 7 (Or the burdened he bared for hunting down christians), even though He knew he was forgiven. He even illustrates it was this lement this guilt that drove him closer to the cross.

The oppsite is being said here in this story. Their is a cold disconnect being pushed between our sin and our connection to it. (seemingly just so we/he could enjoy the spoils of being better off than others without feeling guilt) while it is true that we have found forgiveness for our sins, we are never to completely turn our backs on the emotions that are created when we have been undeservingly been forgiven of our sin.

Romans7:
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
 
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DennisTate

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In our soceity we hinge content on the credablity of the witness, or how this information was obtained, rather than taking the message and judging it's content. Which was secondary lesson in this story. (In that God would have use some of these side walk preachers to pull his church together, but because they did not have a pedagree they are shunned and ignored.)

With any True message or 'revelation' From God, the messenger is of little importance. It is the message we should look at. This is why it is so desperatly important that we know our bibles. So that we can turn to it Because otherwise we are subject to the intentions of a messenger, and his hidden intentions. (Which education, status and esteem have no bearing on.) Look at how these 'qualities' are exaulted in our educational system and also look at the coruption and hidden agendas they push under the guiles of being 'properly educated.' So just because a man presents himself with those qualities does not mean he does not have a hidden agenda..

I don't know the author of this book nor do I really care. I take it though that you see him as a benny henn type. Even so God uses these guys despite their potentially self serving efforts. We must learn to seperate the message from the messenger and examine what was said rather than putting so much importance on who said it. or how they intend to use the revelation given them.

This goes into another question you asked would the devil give such a good message to someone looking to serve him rather than God? The answer is yes. This is a simple half truth. The message is the 1/2 true part and things like this are often paired with other messages or an open agenda to push another doctrine or a line of thought, that would not stand on it's own merrit. Again however, if we learn to seperate the message from the messenger then we can reclaim the truth of God's revelation away from the person who would use it for his own gain and give it back to God. Which all comes back to knowing your bible so you can identify God's truth in a message like this.


Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is certainly one of the most well thought out and accurate and truthful statements that I have ever received in any discussion board since 2003 when I got my self kind of addicted to forums!!!!!!!
 
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DennisTate

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Rick Joyner is a heretic and an enemy of the Gospel.

If we were still living in Old Testament times, Joyner would have been stoned to death long ago.


Well.....it is a good thing for me that we are not living in Old Testament times because I probably would not live long enough to die of old age either!!!! Actually I doubt it that I would have made it to 53!?!?

The wife of my old friend who sent me the link into the first part of the book The Vision, which is:

The Hordes of Hell are Marching

....has also turned against the writings of Rick Joyner. She wrote something to the effect that he once wrote that taking the mark of the beast will not automatically doom somebody to hell for eternity!!!!!

Well.....since I was a teenager I was taught that a form of the Mark of the Beast existed all throughout the Dark Ages! Christianity had become rabidly anti-Semitic beginning from the era of Emperor Constantine. It wasn't long until it was considered heresy to even attempt to observe the Jewish Sabbath from sunset to sunset....or avoid eating pork or shell fish....or have a bath on Friday before the Sabbath began or.......

Anyway....observance of Sunday, the first day of the week according to the Jewish calendar, as the Sabbath was enforced on Christians and observance of the Jewish Sabbath was forbidden. My old mentor Garner Ted Armstrong taught in a rather impressive manner that this enforcing of Sunday worship was a valid form of a "mark of the beast" for that time period?????!!!!

Does observing Sunday and working on Saturday condemn people to hell for eternity???????

In my opinion....NO!!!!!!!!!!!! Unless of course God speaks to you regarding this over and over and over and over and over again....and you utterly ignore Him....which could be kind of serious in your particular case......Each of us has a somewhat different calling. Even specific era's of the Bride of Messsiah Yehoshua/Jesus have a different calling and can have less or more added to what is expected of them....under their specific set of circumstances in which they live?????!!!!!



Revelation 2:24
But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
 
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drich0150

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Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is certainly one of the most well thought out and accurate and truthful statements that I have ever received in any discussion board since 2003 when I got my self kind of addicted to forums!!!!!!!
Thank you, but I feel like I have only stated the obvious in the two above posts.

What I have been thinking about all morning is the contrast between the first 1/2 of his message that was paired with biblical truth, to the second half that was tied to a message that had nothing to do with the truth it was paired with.

If the Author truly received a 'vision' then why did God not allow him to see a 'vision' that directly applied to the 'new revelation' he got? Why wasn't the 'vision' tied to the meat of the second message? Is the god that the author worships simply not smart enough to use what has been written in the bible to spell out this message of indulgence? Or is it that the bible does not support a life of indulgences and guilt free sinning? If the latter is true, that must mean that he believes that "God" has given him a revelation that Christ Himself was not privy to. Making him a greater than Christ and all of the Apstoles. Otherwise why wouldn't Christ have illustrated this in His ministry? or in the Ministries of any of the Apstoles??

By knowing the truth of God's word we can Spiritually descern The Shepards voice from the false phrophets calling out to the flock.
 
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ForceofTime

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"Human compassion is just as contrary to Me as human oppression. Human compassion is used as a substitute for the power of My cross."

......The only explanation for this that I can come up with is that Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua wishes to rule in every heart and every mind and wants us to even agree with what He is thinking and feeling.........Does that make sense?????????

Maybe it is in relation to this:

Isa 64:6 KJV But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
 
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Rick Joyner is a heretic and an enemy of the Gospel.

If we were still living in Old Testament times, Joyner would have been stoned to death long ago.
:amen: People who put experiences before Bible - often without realising it - are very vunerable to false prophets/ "teachers" (Joyner only gives eloquent but fortune-cookie quality messages).

Charismatics: +ve experiences +words + visions does NOT always = messenger of the CHRISTIAN God.

BeyondGrace: .:Rick Joyner Resource Page

Atheists/agnostics: does this look like a normal Christian meeting to you?! :doh:
RICK JOYNER MORNINGSTAR MADNESS3 - YouTube

Hint: But all things should be done decently and in order. (1 Corinthians 14:40)
for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control. (2 Timothy 1:7)

Christians - keep away from such madmen.
 
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This guy is a fraud/con. Like so many preachers today, all he offers is religious fluff and theatrics catering to Bible illiterates.


On a positive note from what you write Beastmaster I get the impression that you have probably read the New Testament many many times! You obviously have strong opinions on doctrine which is where I was at myself twenty years ago!

These last twenty years I am going through a process of rethinking and questioning much of what I once believed in so firmly. I now know that such a high percentage of what I once thought was a clear and easy truth to prove was actually wrong, these days I am scratching my head over too many questions to be sure who is right and who is wrong?!?!

22 years ago, I met with the pastors of my church and I asked them if they thought that the writings of Dr. Gary Smalley were inspired by the Holy Spirit? I asked if in their opinion Dr. Smalley, one of our favourite authors on marriage, had the Holy Spirit and would probably be resurrected to meet the Lord in the air at the first resurrection.

They answered me that if Dr. Gary Smalley really was led by the Holy Spirit that he obviously would have been led to become a member of the Worldwide Church of God and he would want to find out everything about the weekly and annual Jewish Sabbaths?!?!

I wasn't thrilled with this answer at all because I knew people from lots of different churches who obviously were making astonishing strides in overcoming their own problems from the past, better than I was really. After this I separated from the WWCG and church hopped for a decade. It was a good experience for me at that time. Sure enough, I met lots of zealous obviously powerfully guided Christians in every church that I went to.

Do you think that Pastor Joyner is not on the same page as you on some doctrines may perhaps cause you to find it awfully hard to imagine that he would be given such amazing visions????
 
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DennisTate

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:amen: People who put experiences before Bible - often without realising it - are very vunerable to false prophets/ "teachers" (Joyner only gives eloquent but fortune-cookie quality messages).

Charismatics: +ve experiences +words + visions does NOT always = messenger of the CHRISTIAN God.

......
Hint: But all things should be done decently and in order. (1 Corinthians 14:40)
for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control. (2 Timothy 1:7)

Christians - keep away from such madmen.


I personally have been going through 12 years of being shown, (as far as I can figure out anyway).....that the evangelical, charismatic, pentecostal movement are tapping into gifts that I would have ridiculed and thought to have been of the devil 20 years ago.

My wife is Pentecostal and has spoken in tongues on many occasions. She has dreams that come to pass with a consistency that astonishes me. Five years before she met me she was told that she was going to be given a daughter named Abigay in a dream one night...and it was confirmed in church the next day!!!!! (Sure enough....against impossible odds....Abby is now 9 years old)!

In Bogota, Colombia, Maria went to a Benny Hinn crusade. On the way up to the stage he stopped, walked over to her, and gave her a prophecy that God was going to give her a foreign husband, she was going to travel all over the world working for Jesus, and that her husband would go with her!

Well....all I can say is Gracias a Dios for that prophecy from Pastor Benny Hinn to my wife because it made her open to the idea of marring a red neck from the back woods of Nova Scotia like myself!!!!

The number of miraculous prophetic experiences that have happened around my wife since I met her have made me realize that my skepticism toward the Pentecostal gifts was in actuality comparable to this rebuke from Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua to the Pharisees:


Mark 3:28 ¶
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

I used to believe that Pentecostals spoke in tongues because they had hypnotized themselves by saying "Praise you Jesus" almost like a mantra, got themselves hypnotized...and then spoke in tongues!!!!!

I was very very very very very wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Plus I was playing with fire!!!!!!!!!!
 
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DennisTate

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Thank you, but I feel like I have only stated the obvious in the two above posts.

What I have been thinking about all morning is the contrast between the first 1/2 of his message that was paired with biblical truth, to the second half that was tied to a message that had nothing to do with the truth it was paired with.

If the Author truly received a 'vision' then why did God not allow him to see a 'vision' that directly applied to the 'new revelation' he got? Why wasn't the 'vision' tied to the meat of the second message? Is the god that the author worships simply not smart enough to use what has been written in the bible to spell out this message of indulgence? Or is it that the bible does not support a life of indulgences and guilt free sinning? If the latter is true, that must mean that he believes that "God" has given him a revelation that Christ Himself was not privy to. Making him a greater than Christ and all of the Apstoles. Otherwise why wouldn't Christ have illustrated this in His ministry? or in the Ministries of any of the Apstoles??

By knowing the truth of God's word we can Spiritually descern The Shepards voice from the false phrophets calling out to the flock.

Good question! This is a helpful idea for me as well because I think that you got to the very heart of the reason as to why so many Christians get so angry at Pastor Joyner for some of what he writes!!!!


My off the cuff response to this dilemma drich is perhaps that the canonized Christian Bible had to be simple, foundational, very down to earth, because the dark ages were coming when Christians would be arrested and tortured for something as simple as honouring any aspect of Judaism such as having a bath on Friday, so that they were clean for the Jewish Sabbath?!?!

In our time period God has a freedom to fill in gaps through His prophets and visionaries that just was not there in the first century?!?


Jeremiah 30:24
The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have done [it], and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.
 
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joey_downunder

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Dennistate I am not doubting Charismatics' faith, experiences, tongues MAY be genuine. Unfortunately Charismatics seem to be a lot more willing to believe any person's testimonies if they sound similar to their own/christians they know.

I am warning against a *proven* false prophet, false teacher and a church leader that endorses people who are immoral to remain as leaders. e.g. Todd Bentley.
 
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DennisTate

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Dennistate I am not doubting Charismatics' faith, experiences, tongues MAY be genuine. Unfortunately Charismatics seem to be a lot more willing to believe any person's testimonies if they sound similar to their own/christians they know.

I am warning against a *proven* false prophet, false teacher and a church leader that endorses people who are immoral to remain as leaders. e.g. Todd Bentley.

Good answer!

I heard Pastor Todd Bentley's sermon "Dark Night of the Soul" and it impressed me as being one of the deepest messages that I ever heard in my life!

I believe that just as King David fell into terrible sin, so also Todd Bentley has a depth of thought that makes him somebody that people will go out on a limb for even after he gets into serious problems. Frankly, many of us Christians have a terrible brain chemical mix! I personally cannot take a nutritional product called Matol even though I believe that it is good for most people....it is NOT good for me!

I know what it is like to go through a time of having a seriously bad brain chemical mix and I get the impression that Pastor Todd may have experienced a similar problem. I can see your point......it is a valid point.....but I am on something of another page regarding Todd Bentley and whether or not he can be restored!

My wife was told to fast and pray for me for 35 days...and she obeyed God. For four weeks for three days/week Maria drank only fruit juices and Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua woke her up early in the morning and inspired her to pray for me. Then for the fifth week she ate no solid food but continued her fast for me. I had been a mess for ten years...my brain chemical mix had been all over the place....when Maria began to pray within 24 hours I was hit with the most off the scale peace of mind that I had ever experienced in my entire life!!!!

The whole experience was even more of a contrast in comparison to being a mess for an entire decade!

I do agree with you though that the gift of tongues and other gifts can be counterfeited by the dark side of the force and I admit that at this time in my life I would have great difficulty discerning the real from the false!!!!!!!?????
 
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joey_downunder

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I believe that just as King David fell into terrible sin, so also Todd Bentley has a depth of thought that makes him somebody that people will go out on a limb for even after he gets into serious problems.
Yes he fell into serious sin, as many of us do as well. Accepting him back in church after he shows sign of genuine repentance is one thing, accepting him back as a church leader is quite another. 1 Timothy 3:1-7 - ESVBible.org

Especially note this verse: Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.
(1 Timothy 3:7)
I have seen interviews of Bentley from secular news journalists on youtube; his reputation puts Christians in a bad light. I'll leave that topic alone now.
My wife was told to fast and pray for me for 35 days...and she obeyed God.....when Maria began to pray within 24 hours I was hit with the most off the scale peace of mind that I had ever experienced in my entire life!!!!
That is a wonderful testimony and shows prayers CAN be answered by God!
I do agree with you though that the gift of tongues and other gifts can be counterfeited by the dark side of the force and I admit that at this time in my life I would have great difficulty discerning the real from the false!!!!!!!?????
This would be an *excellent* topic for you to discuss with more Christians in the apologetics section. Christian nerds love discussions about discernment etc. :)

This quote from a famous classic evangelist :
Discernment is not simply a matter of telling the difference between what is right and wrong; rather it is the difference between right and almost right. Charles Spurgeon

How will you learn that? Only by careful study of the bible and comparing what a preacher says with what the bible actually says.

That does take time and effort but for your own spiritual well-being it is definitely worth it.
 
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