The Start of the Tribulation

[wordsoflife]

The tribulation has been ongoing since the time of Christ.

Acts 14:21-22
When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

Revelation 1:9
I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

 

[Ludwig van Beethoven]

Okay, to clear things up for any preterists here on the forum, when we say "tribulation" here we usually mean the tribulation as in the "Great Tribulation". So please stop saying, "the tribulation has been happening for a long time". No offense, but we are talking about the very clear "Great Tribulation" which is clearly 42 months and happens at the end of the age right before Yeshua's return to earth.

-LvB-

 

[Ebed]

Okay, to clear things up for any preterists here on the forum, when we say "tribulation" here we usually mean the tribulation as in the "Great Tribulation". So please stop saying, "the tribulation has been happening for a long time". No offense, but we are talking about the very clear "Great Tribulation" which is clearly 42 months and happens at the end of the age right before Yeshua's return to earth.

-LvB-

Very good, so simple to understand even a preterist can get it.

a short story, hope you don't mind.

When visiting Lionlamb ministries in Norman, Oklahoma almost three years ago, i asked Monte if he still believed that Charles was the anti-messiah, and he said, yes...and it wasn't a big deal...while there someone asked me, if i knew of Dewey's timeline which i had not until then...

Dewey also lives in Oklahoma very close to Monte

My first Post in this thread is Approved by Dewey, he stands behind the interpretation...http://www.christianforums.com/t7710215-3/#post62047819

Here is what Dewey also believes to be completely accurate, that it is possible that the one who strengthened the covenant that started the last week, may not be the final manifestation of the man of sin... when satan is cast to the earth...but unlikely in his estimation...as of two years ago +

LionLamb led to Danielstimeline, which is interesting considering how things have developed.



Shalom

Ebed

 

[Jipsah]

Okay, to clear things up for any preterists here on the forum, when we say "tribulation" here we usually mean the tribulation as in the "Great Tribulation".

Is that kinda like "The Rapture", which has replaced the return of our Lord as the hope of the Church?

 

[Ludwig van Beethoven]

This is an interesting thought I had yesterday. I was thinking about the day counts of the tribulation...

March 22, 2013 + 1290 days = October 2, 2016 - Feast of Trumpets

But than I thought about the 1335 days.

March 22, 2013 + 1335 days = November 16, 2016 - What's significant about that?

So than I thought (and this is pure speculation with absolutely no evidence, so don't think I actually believe this) "What if you count backwards from October 3, 2016?"

I was brushing my teeth and had no access to a computer, so I did it in my head.

October 3, 2016 - 1335 days = February 6, 2013

So I thought to myself, Wouldn't it be interesting if that was the day that the alter is set up and the daily sacrifices begin? Or maybe the Antichrist comes to power in some way?

Like I said, this is just speculation with no evidence whatsoever. I'm not saying that this is true, but it would be interesting. We will have to wait and see.

-LvB-

 

[Ebed]

Dan 11:21
And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. KJV

And stood up on his station hath a despicable one, and they have not given unto him the honour of the kingdom, and he hath come in quietly, and hath strengthened the kingdom by flatteries. YLT

"In his place a despicable person will arise, on whom the honor of kingship has not been conferred, but he will come in a time of tranquility and seize the kingdom by intrigue. NASB

Malkuwth translated as Kingdom and Royalty > sovereign power, a dictatorship.

Before Romney was the frontrunner of the Republican party, Pastor TD Hale had a dream/vision that Obama would defeat Romney, because It is GOD’s Will upon the generation of the righteous and the wicked…

I will not have to deal with that anymore in my administration ? Daniel 11:21 ?

You will have to listen to the broadcast to understand /\/\/\

This is an Urgent update, and it is almost a year old – Pastor Hale comes after the Teaching, identifying the daughter of Babylon.

http://www.waytozion.org/5min/eddie270.mp3

:shofar: :shofar: :shofar:

youtube.com/watch?v=vs0NbczLC-s

Baruch Haba B'SHEM YHWH

 

[wordsoflife]

Okay, to clear things up for any preterists here on the forum, when we say "tribulation" here we usually mean the tribulation as in the "Great Tribulation". So please stop saying, "the tribulation has been happening for a long time". No offense, but we are talking about the very clear "Great Tribulation" which is clearly 42 months and happens at the end of the age right before Yeshua's return to earth.

-LvB-

I am not a Preterist. But, I don't believe in a "42 month Great Tribulation". I simply believe that we have been in the Tribulation since the time of Christ. This tribulation may increase and become Greater as our Lord's coming nears but I don't see it as either a 7 year or a 42 month specified period of time. That is your fallacy not mine.

 

[Moses Medina]

The great tribulation is a new teaching. The church back in 120ad? Didnt recegnize such a teaching and has been as of recently exploded into popularity. Mainly only in America.

 

[Ebed]

I am not a Preterist. But, I don't believe in a "42 month Great Tribulation". I simply believe that we have been in the Tribulation since the time of Christ. This tribulation may increase and become Greater as our Lord's coming nears but I don't see it as either a 7 year or a 42 month specified period of time. That is your fallacy not mine.

Is it also Yohanan the beloved and Daniel's fallacy, errors in the word of YHWH ?

Elohiym makes it Perfectly Clear that

The Beast is given 42 months

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. Rev 13:5

And Elohiym inspires Yohanan to give us two additional methods concerning how long the serpent has, so that only those trying not to believe will not understand, clearly describing the Same Time frame and How Long it will last.

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of ELOHIYM, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

1260 days / 30 days-1 lunar month = 42 Months

The Woman is kept from the Beast/Dragon for 3.5 years = 42 Months

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Rev 12:14

It is very clear, there is coming a 3.5 year, 42 month, 1260 day Great Tribulation...called Yacob's trouble, whether you believe it or not

Daniel says the time of trouble will start at the Middle of the Seventieth Week

......a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Blessed is he that waits, and comes to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

>>>

When you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso reads, let him understandMatt 24:15, Dan 12:11

>>> Finally

Save your explanation as to why the Word of Elohiym is wrong and you are right, because someone taught you it was a fallacy, or has occurred already.

OY VEY to the anything but the truth will do theologians, making void the word of Elohiym

 

[wordsoflife]

Is it also Yohanan the beloved and Daniel's fallacy, errors in the word of YHWH ?

Elohiym makes it Perfectly Clear that

The Beast is given 42 months

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. Rev 13:5

And Elohiym inspires Yohanan to give us two additional methods concerning how long the serpent has, so that only those trying not to believe will not understand, clearly describing the Same Time frame and How Long it will last.

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of ELOHIYM, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

1260 days / 30 days-1 lunar month = 42 Months

The Woman is kept from the Beast/Dragon for 3.5 years = 42 Months

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Rev 12:14

It is very clear, there is coming a 3.5 year, 42 month, 1260 day Great Tribulation...called Yacob's trouble, whether you believe it or not

Daniel says the time of trouble will begins at the Middle of the Seventieth Week

......a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Blessed is he that waits, and comes to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

>>>

When you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso reads, let him understandMatt 24:15, Dan 12:11

>>> Finally

Save your explanation as to why the Word of Elohiym is wrong and you are right, because someone taught you it was a fallacy, or has occurred already.

OY VEY to the anything but the truth will do theologians, making void the word of Elohiym

Nothing in your post proves that there will be a Great Tribulation lasting 42 months.

 

[Ludwig van Beethoven]

The great tribulation is a new teaching. The church back in 120ad? Didnt recegnize such a teaching and has been as of recently exploded into popularity. Mainly only in America.

Aha, but in Daniel it says that the words will be sealed up until the time of the end. Perhaps this is that time and we are now seeing what the prophecies really say.

 

[Biblewriter]

The great tribulation is a new teaching. The church back in 120ad? Didnt recegnize such a teaching and has been as of recently exploded into popularity. Mainly only in America.

It was very clearly taught by Irenaeus in 186-188, saying:

“And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: ‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.’Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 4)

This is from the very oldest Christian commentary on prophecy of any significant length that has survived to the present day.

It was taught again by Hyppolytus between 202 and 211, saying:

“Just as also he spoke to Daniel, “And he shall establish a covenant with many for one week and it will be that in the half of the week he shall take away my sacrifice and drink offering,” so that the one week may be shown as divided into two, after the two witnesses will have preached for three and a half years, the Antichrist will wage war against the saints the remainder of the week and will desolate all the world so that what was spoken may be fulfilled, “And they will give the abomination of desolation one thousand two hundred ninety days. Blessed is he who endures to Christ and reaches the one thousand three hundred thirty-five days!” (Commentary on Daniel, by Hyppolytus, book 4, 50.2)

This is from absolutely the oldest commentary on scripture that has survived to the present day.

So the concept of a three and a half year "great tribulation" is the original doctrine of the church, in as far as any documentation of that doctrine exists.

 

[Ebed]

This is an interesting thought I had yesterday. I was thinking about the day counts of the tribulation...

March 22, 2013 + 1290 days = October 2, 2016 - Feast of Trumpets

But than I thought about the 1335 days.

March 22, 2013 + 1335 days = November 16, 2016 - What's significant about that?

So than I thought (and this is pure speculation with absolutely no evidence, so don't think I actually believe this) "What if you count backwards from October 3, 2016?"

I was brushing my teeth and had no access to a computer, so I did it in my head.

October 3, 2016 - 1335 days = February 6, 2013

So I thought to myself, Wouldn't it be interesting if that was the day that the alter is set up and the daily sacrifices begin? Or maybe the Antichrist comes to power in some way?

Like I said, this is just speculation with no evidence whatsoever. I'm not saying that this is true, but it would be interesting. We will have to wait and see.

-LvB-

Possible, we will find out soon enough

Here is how i do and don't understand the 45 days.

Blessed is he that waits, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Dan 12:12

1290th day-Tishri 1, The Feast of Trumpets + 45 days = Bul 15 1335th day

And in the eleventh year, in the month Bul, which is the eighth month, was the house finished throughout all the parts thereof, and according to all the fashion of it. So was he seven years in building it 1 Kings 6:38

On Bul 15, The First Temple was finished... It seems that there was a celebration kept in Judah, that Jeroboam ordained outside Jerusalem, the sin of Jeroboam.... a substitute Sukkot beginning on the same day one month later....or a day Judah remembered to celebrate the First Temple's completion or both.


And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar. So did he in Bethel, sacrificing unto the calves that he had made: and he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places which he had made.

So he offered upon the altar which he had made in Bethel the fifteenth day of the eighth month, even in the month. Which he had devised of his own heart; and ordained a feast unto the children of Israel: and he offered upon the altar, and burnt incense. 1 Kings 12:32-33

>>><<<

Altar - Tabernacle - Shiloh - City of David-Gihon or @ Fort Anotonia ? < the threshing floor, has a water spout, what am i talking about ?

AskElm Temple Update Index Page

 

[Ebed]

Baruch haba B'SHEM YHWH

When the Son of Man shall come in His glory( YOM TERUAH), and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory, And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats:

And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Mt 25:31-

The believers that are alive and remaining are changed in an instant, caught up to meet the Adonay at His Coming.

The nations, those outside of His covenant, who survive the Great Tribulation are judged by how they treated His People....Blessed are those who remain until the 1335th day.

the above thought has crossed my mind several times, but here for the first time expressed...as always test, test, test.


http://hebrewnationradio.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=3693odcasters&Itemid=119

youtube.com/watch?v=W1o61srqE3w

 

[Ronald]

Ebed,
You didn't answer my question about the video. I watched the 2 hour video. The interpretation of the 70 weeks was compelling but had a flaw that I noticed. It disregarded two events in Dan. 9:26 and brushed right over them as if they were being avoided!
1. "...the Messiah is cut off ..." Well, in the GT, the Messiah does not get cut off!
2. "destroy the city and the sanctuary"
The prince who came after Jesus did destroy the city and temple in 70AD!

Where do those events fit into your scenario???

Examining the alternate interpretation, in which "weeks of years" adds up to 483 years, brings us to Christ's "First Coming" and the finale week contains his ministry: In the middle of the week, he was "cut off"; He put an end to sin with His atonement; He made sacrifice in the temple obsolete; He made an New Covenant and proclamation that years later the city and temple would be destroyed! I do believe this interpretation is stronger!
Nevertheless, that one generation is 70 years and this can be applied to Israel becoming a nation in 1948 is a valid observation in prophecy. That leaves us with the same timeline give or take a year.

The bottom line is: This video claims that the Great Tribulation will start on March 22, 2013, so if this date comes and goes and nothing happens, then we will know this ministry is somewhat off --but not entirely, especially if they only miss it by a year or so. We'll see.

 

[Interplanner]

To Ronald,
you are starting to see the coherence of the vision. Now take it one step further. The 'time of unequalled distress' (formalized by futurists as The Great Tribulation) is how Jesus described the horrors of the events of the 7th decade, which are also part of Dan 9's vision. It is not a neat "week" after him, but that generation after him is quite remarkable, isn't it? The unparalleled distress happens in the 70 weeks; it's just a matter of how the final week is seen, and related to the generation following Jesus in which so many huge decisions were made and major prophecy themes fulfilled (as Eph 2-3 says).

Minor note: typically a generation is 40 years (cf. the chapters in Hebrews that deal with that generation's 40 years in the desert. A person may live 70, but that's different from "a generation" in Hebrew usage.

--Inter

 

[Ludwig van Beethoven]

To Ronald,
you are starting to see the coherence of the vision. Now take it one step further. The 'time of unequalled distress' (formalized by futurists as The Great Tribulation) is how Jesus described the horrors of the events of the 7th decade, which are also part of Dan 9's vision. It is not a neat "week" after him, but that generation after him is quite remarkable, isn't it? The unparalleled distress happens in the 70 weeks; it's just a matter of how the final week is seen, and related to the generation following Jesus in which so many huge decisions were made and major prophecy themes fulfilled (as Eph 2-3 says).

Minor note: typically a generation is 40 years (cf. the chapters in Hebrews that deal with that generation's 40 years in the desert. A person may live 70, but that's different from "a generation" in Hebrew usage.

--Inter

Interplanner, I respect your views on this subject, but please bear with me for a moment. Will you believe that the Great Tribulation is what the so-called "futurists" say it is if, on March 22 this year the Abomination of Desolation is evident?

 

[Interplanner]

No, not this March. You'd have to follow the Mt 24 & //s template: there would have to be a temple in place and functioning. More important (more awful) is that there would have to be an agressive, punitive Judaism operating.

I can follow futurism if there is a general repeat or replication of a messianic madness to fight for Israel, but as a historian, the details of Mt 24 & //s are far too specific to mistake. They were also against a background of a major decision for Israel: would it fight messianically against Rome (ie to fight inspired that this was the end-of-times battle that would restore its grandeur, and God would supernaturally help) or fulfill the mission of the Gospel, which is what the reformed Paul realized was what the OT prophets was all about? I believe this is the issue which Hebrews especially is pressing its readers about. Hence the title.

Besides the materials of Josephus about the Jewish Revolt, the other type of material from the era is the messianic-battle-psalms-and-poetry. Absolutely fascinating that it was not well known since the 1st century until this century, and it cements that this is what Paul was up against in the Judaizers, and a few other remote sects (Judaizers were not only very public but in other countries). Just check any good publication of the 1947-found Dead Sea Scriptures collections for that kind of material.

--Inter

 

[Ludwig van Beethoven]

Actually, we don't need a temple up and running, just the altar. Once they figure out where to lay the cornerstone of the temple they can mathematically determine where the altar belongs and begin the daily sacrifices.

And what do you mean by an "aggressive, punitive Judaism" exactly? Where in the bible does it say that has to happen?

 

[Interplanner]

To Ludvig
Do you really take the math that seriously...considering the temple is the Lamb, and even the geometry of one description has a city the shape of a cube some 17 miles tall...

Back to reality: re the agressive, punitive Judaism: you must be a little unfamiliar with the 1st cent. If you were to take Paul before conversion, and clone him 10K times, you'd be close. Judaism worsened that way, in its rejection of the Gospel, as the decades ticked by.

Now as to details actually in Mt 24 & //s, note the 1st warning: pray you don't have to get to far (from Jerusalem) on the sabbath. 1, there were "Taliban" like police; and 2, they were dense around the city. that in itself was a good reason to get out! That's a start.

Why were they agressive and punitive: ahhh, this is where the other kinds of materials is so valuable now--the messianic war scrolls and psalms and poetry. They full expected God's help in a messianic struggle against the great evil kingdom Rome, and leaders pressured people to the max to perform all the commands and regulations of Judaism to the max. This itself lies behind Rom. 10's "zeal without knowledge" (ie, ignorant zeal) because Paul was saying that whole dynamic of performing for God had just be re-administered in the Gospel. It was now Christ who had had the job of completely perfect performance of the Law, and having completed that, was offering justification from our sins to all who believed. (It is best to read 9:30 forward on this...).

Then (10:5+) he uses the famous 'how do we get Messiah to act' lines of Dt 30. To the normal reader in Judaism, this meant a very strict sect was necessary. Ie, the Pharisees, which translates as the Pure. And which had this as their objective--to win favor from God in the form of the Messiah's help. But as you know Jesus had some criticisms of Pharisaism! Even worse was the Judaizer, as the decades went by. The materials I mentioned show that the desert sects believed Pharisaism was corrupt, and needed to be overthrown. And once Zealots had control of the city through John of Gischala, they did kill the High Priest, an act which might be the AofD, in 68 I think. For more on the Judaizer, observe the background of Gal. and Col. The enforcement of circumcision. The observances. The disqualification of believers for not keeping the Law (Col. 2:16 where "judge" means to de-justify or dis-justify--the very opposite of what Paul offered!)

Finally, this divergence by Judaism and Judaizers shows up in the next paragraph of Rom 10, v14+. Paul's excitement about the newly-arrived kingdom and Messianic age is not anchored in land in Judea. It is the Christian Gospel which is to be preached. Israel has a new mission with new refreshing results (Acts 2) if they would accept it. The stark reality of the NT --of the generation following Jesus--is that if Israel did not accept this Gospel and become its speakers, it would be decimated in a pointless false-messianic conflict with Rome. And the awful truth is, it did not accept this as its prophetic role in its times, for the most part. Paul is a clear exception, and had a smooth go of it, didn't he! (10:16+, 11:1+).

I hope that helps on the punitive, forceful Judaism and the trouble it cause for itself in the midst of the 1st century.

--Inter