The so-called "biblical" view on slavery ...

[2PhiloVoid]

I'll have what she's drinking.

Are you sure you want some of .... that?

 

[Caliban]

Are you sure you want some of .... that?

I think Sam Harris spiked her drink.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I personally think the Bible has no real position on slavery. It seems to be just an accepted part of society with no moral judgement attached to it either way.

That's pretty good. I would differ a tad. The Bible obviously accepts slavery by having passages regulate it etc. But I would note that slavery is part of the Fallen World. So obviously not an ideal, but something accepted by virtue of being part of the ancient world.

Saint Paul seems to be a good point of reference on that one passage relating to the escaped slave etc.
He encourages his former owner to be forgiving, welcome him back as a brother etc. But he does not force the issue, he basically leaves the issue to that person's conscience.


Much of the position of Christianity on the issue is similar to having multiple wives. 1) Not the Biblical ideal, per Adam and Eve and many other passages where it's obvious that having multiple wives can lead to problems. 2) However it was part of the ancient cultural landscape, so it accepted. 3) However Christians will argue based on scriptural principles that this should be done away with later based on biblical principles etc.


Anyway on some issues there is Moral Development similar to "Theological Development". I actually think a lot of this comes from the way the Church / Christianity changes as far as culture etc. goes.

 

[Caliban]

But he does not force the issue, he basically leaves the issue to that person's conscience?

Is Paul leaving it to the slaveholder's conscience?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Is Paul leaving it to the slaveholder's conscience?

1 Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother,

To Philemon our dear friend and fellow worker— 2 also to Apphia our sister and Archippus our fellow soldier—and to the church that meets in your home:

3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thanksgiving and Prayer
4 I always thank my God as I remember you in my prayers, 5 because I hear about your love for all his holy people and your faith in the Lord Jesus. 6 I pray that your partnership with us in the faith may be effective in deepening your understanding of every good thing we share for the sake of Christ. 7 Your love has given me great joy and encouragement, because you, brother, have refreshed the hearts of the Lord’s people.

Paul’s Plea for Onesimus
8 Therefore, although in Christ I could be bold and order you to do what you ought to do, 9 yet I prefer to appeal to you on the basis of love. It is as none other than Paul—an old man and now also a prisoner of Christ Jesus— 10 that I appeal to you for my son Onesimus, who became my son while I was in chains. 11 Formerly he was useless to you, but now he has become useful both to you and to me.

12 I am sending him—who is my very heart—back to you. 13 I would have liked to keep him with me so that he could take your place in helping me while I am in chains for the gospel. 14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary. 15 Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back forever— 16 no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord.

17 So if you consider me a partner, welcome him as you would welcome me. 18 If he has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me. 19 I, Paul, am writing this with my own hand. I will pay it back—not to mention that you owe me your very self. 20 I do wish, brother, that I may have some benefit from you in the Lord; refresh my heart in Christ. 21 Confident of your obedience, I write to you, knowing that you will do even more than I ask.

22 And one thing more: Prepare a guest room for me, because I hope to be restored to you in answer to your prayers.

23 Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus, sends you greetings. 24 And so do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas and Luke, my fellow workers.

25 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

 

[Caliban]

1 Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother,

To Philemon our dear friend and fellow worker— 2 also to Apphia our sister and Archippus our fellow soldier—and to the church that meets in your home:

3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thanksgiving and Prayer
4 I always thank my God as I remember you in my prayers, 5 because I hear about your love for all his holy people and your faith in the Lord Jesus. 6 I pray that your partnership with us in the faith may be effective in deepening your understanding of every good thing we share for the sake of Christ. 7 Your love has given me great joy and encouragement, because you, brother, have refreshed the hearts of the Lord’s people.

Paul’s Plea for Onesimus
8 Therefore, although in Christ I could be bold and order you to do what you ought to do, 9 yet I prefer to appeal to you on the basis of love. It is as none other than Paul—an old man and now also a prisoner of Christ Jesus— 10 that I appeal to you for my son Onesimus, who became my son while I was in chains. 11 Formerly he was useless to you, but now he has become useful both to you and to me.

12 I am sending him—who is my very heart—back to you. 13 I would have liked to keep him with me so that he could take your place in helping me while I am in chains for the gospel. 14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary. 15 Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back forever— 16 no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord.

17 So if you consider me a partner, welcome him as you would welcome me. 18 If he has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me. 19 I, Paul, am writing this with my own hand. I will pay it back—not to mention that you owe me your very self. 20 I do wish, brother, that I may have some benefit from you in the Lord; refresh my heart in Christ. 21 Confident of your obedience, I write to you, knowing that you will do even more than I ask.

22 And one thing more: Prepare a guest room for me, because I hope to be restored to you in answer to your prayers.

23 Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus, sends you greetings. 24 And so do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas and Luke, my fellow workers.

25 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.


Onesimus I believe was an escaped slave, who later became a believer and helped Paul while he was in prison with the Romans, or that is what the commentaries say etc.

What I like about Paul's actions here is that he is willing to pay for the debts Onesimus might have incurred. This might have been a highly virtuous at given the time and context. What is difficult to reconcile is the fact that the God of the Bible would tolerate any form of slavery at all. Possible, Paul makes a significant gesture here; but from a macroscopic view, Paul, nor anyone else, ever condemns slavery. I understand that Paul has no authority in the broad culture however, he could have easily put the issue to bed for the rest of Christian historical influence by ending the practice of slavery among all believers. He is so close when he says "you should love your neighbor as yourself;" One step further would have done it.

I really do not see the argument which exonerates the morality of the text or rehabilitates the reputation of the author.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Oh, I don't worry about the Resurrection. It's meant to be something ethereal.

Well Dr. Jordan Peterson, do you believe that Jesus physically and literally rose from the dead or not?

So, I derive a lot of my faith by looking at this:

I wonder what Freud would say about your obsession with the harlot of Babylon.

All that has to happen for me to be wrong is for the political powers that be.....to turn ultra "nice" to Christianity! That's it! Then I'd know I'm wrong! Whooop-ee!

Isn't that how it was for over a thousand years? Also, I think the world is quite ultra "nice" to Christianity considering the long list of atrocities it has wrought upon the world over the centuries. Priests around the world are not citizens of the Vatican, and yet the kings of the Vatican have always compelled these priests to interfere in their local legal systems and obstruct justice in cases of child rape and torture. They've committed acts of war against every nation on earth while having absolutely no defenses whatsoever. And yet they still exist. That is indeed ultra "nice."

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Well Dr. Jordan Peterson, do you believe that Jesus physically and literally rose from the dead or not?

Peterson? I'm not a fan of his, and I thought I told you that a long time ago.

Yes, I believe He did, but as a detail that is ensconced in a larger contextual framework within my understanding. The Beast on the other hand is something I can also read about in history books.....as well as 'see' by simply turning on my computer and watching European news from a distance, or through a cultural lens via American news.

I wonder what Freud would say about your obsession with the harlot of Babylon.

... Truth be told, I'm actually more interested in the Beast.

Isn't that how it was for over a thousand years? Also, I think the world is quite ultra "nice" to Christianity considering the long list of atrocities it has wrought upon the world over the centuries. Priests around the world are not citizens of the Vatican, and yet the kings of the Vatican have always compelled these priests to interfere in their local legal systems and obstruct justice in cases of child rape and torture. They've committed acts of war against every nation on earth while having absolutely no defenses whatsoever. And yet they still exist. That is indeed ultra "nice."

Well....Jesus did say the Church would have a canon by which to rule ... so despite their foibles, if you think it's "war time" against the Church, then by all means have at it and bolster my already daily increasing faith.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

What I like about Paul's actions here is that he is willing to pay for the debts Onesimus might have incurred. This might have been a highly virtuous at given the time and context. What is difficult to reconcile is the fact that the God of the Bible would tolerate any form of slavery at all. Possible, Paul makes a significant gesture here; but from a macroscopic view, Paul, nor anyone else, ever condemns slavery. I understand that Paul has no authority in the broad culture however, he could have easily put the issue to bed for the rest of Christian historical influence by ending the practice of slavery among all believers. He is so close when he says "you should love your neighbor as yourself;" One step further would have done it.

I really do not see the argument which exonerates the morality of the text or rehabilitates the reputation of the author.

Well Carl Benjamin aka Sargon of Akkad, on these topics is pretty understanding (for an atheist). In the same way that we have "Theological Development" and Technological Development we also get into moral and ethical development etc.

I was impressed at that kind of insight because much of the time, I find myself dealing with straw-man positions on the Bible. Which is that while, Christians believe in Biblical inspiration you get into areas of the original audience of the Bible, aka near Eastern Bronze Age culture and all the stuff around that. And well the Bible is not just our culture, but for that one as well, as for other cultures and times that are in the middle of that, and well it is hard to have a text that can handle all that.

But there are other issues. Some situations exist as living metaphors and tropes, debt and slavery especially. Without them it is hard to appreciate salvation, from the Biblical context. Not having them is like taking away our Good / Evil paradigm (especially the Zoroastrian end of things, where Good and Evil are counterparts and on a more even footing) and trying to relate to a fairy tale, the original and prequal Star Wars Trilogies, the Lord of the Rings etc.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think Sam Harris spiked her drink.

He did? And here I thought he (and three other 'horsemen') merely planted some stimulants in the Beast's morning kitty food.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

aaaaaannnnd you still won't explain anything will you.

No. He won't. But that's okay. @2PhiloVoid hides behind berbosity, gets called on it, and just digs himself in still further. We make the case against him, and he rushes to confirm it.

Calling me names does not change the fact that the bible support slavery.

Exactly.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

No. He won't. But that's okay. @2PhiloVoid hides behind berbosity, gets called on it, and just digs himself in still further. We make the case against him, and he rushes to confirm it.

I get too frustrated with him. I like to talk about things that people actually talk about and believe, all the academic talk is fine and has its place but when you talk with everyday believers that is not why they believe.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I get too frustrated with him. I like to talk about things that people actually talk about and believe, all the academic talk is fine and has its place but when you talk with everyday believers that is not why they believe.

oh, sure. And "epistemology" is a house-hold word, right? ..... NOT!!!!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

No. He won't. But that's okay. @2PhiloVoid hides behind berbosity, gets called on it, and just digs himself in still further. We make the case against him, and he rushes to confirm it.

Exactly.

Actually, I just might. But I've noticed that IF I attempt a more elaborate answer, my effort turns out to be a waste of time with most of you guys (mainly male atheists here) because you just turn your nose, hand waive away all the work I may have put in and then say, "Meh!"

So, Crap on all of that!!!!!! Crap, crap, and more crap!!!!

NO, I think some of you think this is a game, a political one at that, and you've already decided that you're "going to win" whether hell or high water, so you work overtime to make sure to encapsulate each post I write so as to throw off any stray lurkers that might be happening through......................................

You say you're honest. You say you honestly trying to understand. You say you're treating each subject in a balanced fashion. Bull crap!!!

 

[Jok]

Wait--it is Gods specific instruction to the Hebrews--these are laws. Please read my reasoning here (post #11). I think I make a good case.

I would look at it as God setting down some organizational stipulations WITHIN the boundaries of these societies that these hardened hearted humans have universally set up for themselves. Sort of like how God grudgingly set up stipulations for divorce even though God doesn’t like divorce at all. So I don’t interpret the creation of such a law as being equal to saying “And so it was good.”

It makes me think of several thoughts experiments, none of which I have definitive answers to. #1 are there possible worlds where human nature rules, and where enslaving your neighbor is not an innate impulse of reality? #2 was the events of the industrial revolution really the full extent of the eventual abolition trend, or was it centuries & centuries of Christian concepts slowly leaching their way into the psyche of societies? #3, do possible worlds exist, where human nature rules, and where that world reaches a launchpad of increasing technology, where that technology combined with human nature doesn’t inevitably lead to self destruction (the end times scenario)? You can argue that #3 is false, but it doesn’t take a whole lot of imagination to think that it might be true. I think that evil completely dominates in all possible worlds dominated by human nature. The sociopaths always naturally rise to the top.

 

[Caliban]

I would look at it as God setting down some organizational stipulations WITHIN the boundaries of these societies that these hardened hearted humans have universally set up for themselves.

Really, is that what the 10 Commandments were? Because that was chapter 20.

You can argue that #3 is false, but it doesn’t take a whole lot of imagination to think that it might be true.

I think imagination is the key word here.

 

[Jok]

Really, is that what the 10 Commandments were? Because that was chapter 20.

The difficulties of a world dominated by human nature are present before, during, and after chapter 20.

I think imagination is the key word here.

Not much at all, at least for me. It would take about a 20,000 word deviation for me to go into a tangent about my opinion on the true nature of ruling class lol

 

[Caliban]

The difficulties of a world dominated by human nature are present before, during, and after chapter 20.

I has nothing to do with human nature, but on what the God of the Old Testament commanded. He literally commanded slavery through his laws.
Slaves could be beaten because they were property and there was no punishment for this. No excuses.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Actually, I just might. But I've noticed that IF I attempt a more elaborate answer, my effort turns out to be a waste of time with most of you guys (mainly male atheists here) because you just turn your nose, hand waive away all the work I may have put in and then say, "Meh!"

So, Crap on all of that!!!!!! Crap, crap, and more crap!!!!

NO, I think some of you think this is a game, a political one at that, and you've already decided that you're "going to win" whether hell or high water, so you work overtime to make sure to encapsulate each post I write so as to throw off any stray lurkers that might be happening through......................................

You say you're honest. You say you honestly trying to understand. You say you're treating each subject in a balanced fashion. Bull crap!!!

This is a debating forum, which means that there are winners and losers. If your arguments tend to be unconvincing, maybe you should rethink your ideas. Maybe the reason you keep being forced between losing an argument or ducking it is because your arguments are built on a flawed foundation.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Sorry. I meant "verbosity". Although now I look at it, "berbosity" is kind of a nice word. Maybe it could mean "burbling verbosity"?