The snare of devotion to Mary.

[justinangel]

If you are willing to say that wasn't particularly seen as some kind of binding authority, I might be willing to say that is a reasonable perspective. It was certainly used that way to settle disputes.

Clement wrote an extremely forceful letter exhorting the Corinthians to come into line with his teachings. The tone of his letter certainly reflects an authority which was regarded as binding by the Church at Corinth: “If anyone disobey the things which have been said by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgressions and in no small danger.” These are very powerful words indeed, seeing that they come from a bishop outside the region. That the Bishop of Rome held universal jurisdiction is obvious. I see no reason why the Corinthians would write a letter to Clement instead of a local bishop, or even the apostle John, to settle their own disputes, unless the Bishop of Rome inherited Peter's primacy and the power to bind and loose.

Common sense alone dictates that the final authority and protection from error in matters of faith and morals rests in one man. We could never be sure that we had the correct teaching unless there were a final authority which infallibly could not fail by the guaranty of the Holy Spirit. Without a visible head protected from teaching error and succumbing to apostasy, appointed by Christ himself to temporally act in his stead as vice-regent (vicar), we could never be sure that we were following Christ's teachings. Without such an authoritative Church we have a group of people who don't believe in the same things, which our Lord did not intend when he founded his Church on the Apostles, having given the keys to Peter. Certainly the Bible cannot serve as the single final teaching and ruling authority of the Church in matters of faith and morals. The principle of sola Scriptura has facilitated divisions within Christendom ever since the so-called reformers substituted the final teaching authority of the pope for Holy Writ.

But that does not, I think, make it possible to look at the kind of quotes being presented by the Fathers and simply say - they show us the papacy is meant to be what we see today. What they say is much more limited.

In principle there wasn't much difference.

To say that leads to what we see now, that is definatly to make a justification on the basis of development of doctrine, which is always going to require a bit of delicacy. And in this case, it is a development that is behind two major divisions in the Church, which IMO makes it even more difficult to justify.

The Bishop of Rome had the final word in the ecumenical councils of the first millennium before the Great Schism. He was, so to speak, the final court of appeal when other clerics and even bishops of different regions violated traditional Church doctrines and Canon Law, even though he may not have attended any of these councils. Under these circumstances the Bishop of Rome was called to intervene to help preserve the unity of faith, and what he declared and ruled was unanimously accepted by the fathers attending these councils despite the few clerics who rejected what the councils may have decided in union with Peter's successor. It was in time of controversy that the Bishop of Rome's role as chief shepherd among shepherds shone forth in the one universal Church and visibly became more defined.

PAX

 

[Galilee63]

According to Saint Dominic (the Dominican priest whom founded the Dominicans by Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit), the Blessed Alan de la Roche (priest) and other Saints of whom have had Jesus Christ our Saviour appear to them, our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God is indeed to be Loved, respected, adored and 'worshiped'.

Saint Louis De Montfort from Saint Dominic and Blessed Alan:

"If you say The Rosary faithfully, I do assure you that, in spite of the gravity of your sins 'you shall receive a never fading crown of glory'.

1 Peter 5:4

4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.

In his first Sermon on The Holy Rosary Father Clement Losoun says:

"After Saint Dominic had gone to Heaven, devotion to The Rosary waned until it was very nearly dead, when a terrible pestilence broke out in several parts of the country. The wretched people sought the advice of a Saintly Hermit who lived in the desert in great austerity. They besought him to intercede to God The Almighty for them.

So the Hermit called upon The Mother of God, imploring Her, as Advocate of sinners, to come to their aid.

Our Lady Mary then appeared and said: "These people have stopped singing My praises. This is why they have been visited with such a scourge. If they will only go back to the ancient devotion of The Most Holy Rosary, they will enjoy My protection. I shall see to their Salvation if only they will sing The Rosary for I love this type of chanting".

(Praying/reciting The Holy Rosary).

"So the people did what Mary asked and made themselves Rosaries, which they started saying with all their heart and soul".

The chronicles of Saint Francis tell of a young Friar who had the praiseworthy habit of saying the Crown of Our Lady (The Rosary) every day before dinner. One day for some reason or other he did not manage to say it. The refectory bell had already been rung when he asked the Superior to allow him to say it before coming to the table, and having obtained the permission he withdrew to his cell to pray.

After he had been gone a long time the Superior sent another Friar to fetch him, and he found him in his room bathed in a Heavenly light facing Our Lady who had two Angels with Her. Beautiful Roses kept issuing from his mouth at each Hail Mary; the Angels took them one by one, placing them on Our Lady's head, and She smilingly accepted them.

Finally two other Friars who had been sent to find out what happened to the first two, saw the same lovely scene, and Our Lady did not go away until The whole Rosary had been said.

So the complete Rosary is a large Crown of Roses and The Rosary of five decades is a little Wreath of Flowers or a small Crown of Heavenly Roses which we place on the Heads of Jesus and Mary. The Rose is the Queen of flowers, and so The Rosary is the Rose of all devotions and it is therefore the most important one.

The Holy Angels in Heaven salute the Most Blessed Virgin Mary with The Hail Mary - not audibly but with their Angelic intelligences. For they are fully aware, that through it, reparation was made for the fallen Angel's sin, God was made man and the world was renewed. One night when a confraternity member had retired, our Lady said to her:
"My Daughter, do not be afraid of Me. I am your Loving Mother whom you praise so faithfully every day. Be steadfast and persevere; I want you to know that the Angelic Salutation gives me so much joy that no man could ever really explain it".

(Guillaume Pepin, in Rosario aureo Sermon 47).

Saint Gertrude corroborated this in one of her visions; in her Revelations Book IV, Chapter II, we find this story:

"It was the morning of the Feast of The Annunciation and The Hail Mary was of course being sung in Saint Gertrude's Monastery. During the singing, she had a vision in which three streams gushed forth from The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost and gently flowed into Mary's Virginal Heart. The minute they reached Her Heart, they bounded back to The Source from where they had come.

From this Saint Gertrude learned that the Blessed Trinity has allowed Our Lady to be most powerful next to God The Father, the wisest after God The Son, and the most Loving after God The Holy Ghost. She also learned that every time The Angelic Salutation is said by the faithful the Three Mysterious Streams surround Our Lady in a mighty swirling current and rush into Her Heart. After they have completely bathed Her in happiness, they gush back into the Bosom of Almighty God.

The Saints and Angels share in this abundance of joy as do the faithful on earth who say this Prayer. For the Angelic Salutation is the source of all good for God's Children.

This is what Our Lady Herself said to Saint Gertrude during :

"Never has man composed anything more beautiful than The Hail Mary. No Salutation could be dearer to My Heart than those beautiful and dignified words that God The Father addressed to me Himself".

One day Our Lady said to Saint Mechtilde:

"All the Angelic Salutations that you have given me are blazoned on My cloak (then She held out a portion of Her Mantle)".

"When this part of My cloak is full of Hail Mary's I shall gather you up and take you into the Kingdom of My Beloved Son".

Denis the Carthusian, speaking of a vision of Our Lady, to one of her clients said:

"We should salute The Most Blessed Virgin with our hearts, our lips and our deeds, so that She will not be able to say to us:
"These people honour me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me".

One day our Lady Mary said to Blessed Alan de la Roche during the 1460's:
"I want people who have a devotion to my Rosary to have my Son's Grace and Blessing during their lifetime and at their death, and after their death, I want them to be freed from all slavery so that they will be like kings wearing crowns and with sceptres in their hands and enjoying eternal glory".

She then added: "I will appear at the hour of death to those who salute me thus, in such glory that they will anticipate the very joys of Heaven."

Saint Louis De Montfort from Blessed Alan de la Roche:

"Be that as it may I shall say no more than to assure you, in the words of Blessed Alan de la Roche, that The Holy Rosary is the root and the storehouse of countless Blessings. For through The Holy Rosary:
1. Sinners are forgiven;
2. Souls that thirst are refreshed;
3. Those who are fettered have their bonds broken;
4. Those who weep find happiness;
5. Those who are tempted find peace;
6. The poor find help;
7. Religious are reformed;
8. Those who are ignorant are instructed;
9. The living learn to overcome pride;
10.The dead (The Holy Souls) have their pains eased by suffrages.

Promise: During an apparition of the Blessed Mother, St. Gertrude noted that the Holy Trinity was depicted under the form of a white lily with three petals. The Blessed Mother made it known that she would exert her influence with the Holy Trinity on behalf of those who saluted her as the White Lily of the Trinity and the Vermilion Rose of Heaven.

one of Saint Francis of Assisi's Prayer's :

Hail Lady, Holy Queen, Holy Mary Mother of God,
who art the Virgin made Church
and the One elect by the Most Holy Father of Heaven,
whom He consecrated with His Most Holy beloved Son
and with the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete;
Thou in whom was and is all fullness of grace and every good.

Hail His Palace;
Hail His Tabernacle;
Hail His Home.

Hail His Vestment;
Hail His Handmaid;
Hail His Mother
And hail all you holy virtues, which through the grace and illumination of the Holy Spirit are
infused into the hearts of the faithful, so that from those unfaithful you make them faithful to God".

and;

Salutation Of The Blessed Virgin

( by Saint Francis of Assisi )

"My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother: that grace may be added to thy head, and a chain of gold to thy neck." (Prov. 1:8-9) "For God hath made the father honorable to the children: and seeking the judgment of the mothers, hath confirmed it upon the children." (Ecclus 3:2-3). With these words the Divine Author of Sacred Scripture speaks to all the families of the human race, teaching them the filial devotion all ought to have.

 

[Galilee63]

L'Ile Bouchard - 1947

The first apparition in the church at L'Ile Bouchard took place on the feast of the Immaculate Conception. At about one o'clock in the afternoon, Jacqueline Aubry, aged 12, her sister Jeanette, aged 7, and their cousin, Nicole Robin, aged 10, were on their way back to school after lunch in the Aubry house, when, at Jacqueline's suggestion, they stopped at the church of St Gilles to pray. She repeatedly requested: "Tell the little children to pray for France, for her need is great."

Tre Fontane - 1953

Better known as 'The Weeping Madonna of Syracuse' led to weeping of tears on numerous occasions over four days. It is as if this was the final appeal of Mary, who had said all she had to say at Fatima and in her other recognized apparitions, and now, because her pleas were being largely ignored, was reduced to silent tears.

Akita, Japan - 1973 - 1975

In 1973, the Blessed Virgin Mary gave Sister Agnes Katsuko Sasagawa in Akita, Japan three messages through a statute of Mary. The messages are strongly linked with those of Fatima

Betania, Venuezuela - 1976 to date

Approved by the Catholic Church, November 21, 1987, this 20th century apparition is still taking place. Our Lady of Betania, Venezuela appears to visionary Maria Esperanza. The Virgin Mary manifests herself under the title, "Mary, Virgin and mother Reconciler of all people and nations.

Kibeho, Rwanda - 1981 to 1988

In November 1981, apparitions began in Kibeho, Rwanda, Africa, to seven visionaries: Alphonsine, Emmanuel, Anathalie, Marie-Claire, Stephanie, Agnes, and Vestine. The apparitions in Kibeho, Africa, were approved in the first stage by the local bishop on August 15, 1988, thus allowing public devotion. The Church is continuing to review these events.

Naju, Korea - 1985 to date

It was almost midnight on June 30,1985 when the Blessed Mother wept for the first time through her statue in Naju, at that time Julia Kim,the owner of the Statue was running her own a Beauty Salon in Naju. The Blessed Mother's weeping tears and tears of blood continued intermittently for the next 7 years for a total of exactly 700 days until Jan 14,1992. But the greatest miracles to occur in Naju are those during Communion at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass when the Sacred Host turns into flesh and blood on Julia's tongue. This has been witnessed by many priests, including a Papal Nuncio sent by the Pope to investigate, as well as hundreds of ordinary people.

Sites of Marian Apparitions of importance Still Under Church Investigation

Garabandal, Spain - 1961 to 1965

The apparitions of Our Lady to Conchita Gonzalez, Maria Dolores Mazon, Jacinta Gonzalez and Maria Cruz Gonzalez and at Garabandal were preceded by two single visits in preparation from Saint Michael the Archangel. The messages given by Our Lady follow the same theme as those given in Fatima, Amsterdam and Naju. These apparitions were also remarkable for a Eucharistic Miracle when the Sacred Host appeared on the tongue of Conchita.

Medjugorje, Bosnia-Herzegovina - 1981 to date

Our Lady’s messages are simple and have never altered over the 21 years - her call to prayer, fasting, penance, conversion, and the Eucharist. The fruits of Medugorje continue to be an increase in prayer, regular confessions, fasting (No bishop in the world, no pope, ever invited millions to fast.) and an ever increasing love of the Eucharist both through increased attendances at Holy Mass and Eucharistic Adoration by those who have been on pilgrimage to Medugorje. Over 24 million people have brought back home an improved faith and devotion to Our Divine Lord and are spreading the simple messages of His Beloved Mother.

Another website entitled Apparitions.org gives a good list of apparition sites approved, still under investigation and condemned by the Church.


Love and kindest wishes your Sister in Jesus Christ our Saviour

 

[Galilee63]

For St. Francis the Blessed Virgin Mary was Mother, Advocate and Queen. St. Bonaventure bears witness that St. Francis honored Her as Mother, when he says: "He loved with an unspeakable affection the Mother of the Lord Jesus Christ, forasmuch as that She had made the Lord of glory our Brother, and that through Her we have obtained mercy." (Leg. Mai. IX,3) For who can make the Lord our Brother, if She not also be our Mother? And again, this Doctor of the Church recounts that even before his perfect conversion the Seraphic Father had devotion for Her as Queen, for speaking of the Portiuncula, he says: "When the man of God beheld it thus abandoned, by reason of the ardent devotion that he had toward the Sovereign Lady of the world, he took up abode there, that he might diligently labor to repair it." (Leg. Mai II,8) That there can be no doubt that Saint Francis took this Mother and Queen as Advocate too, St. Bonaventure writes in the first place, "In Her, after Christ, he put his chief trust, making Her his own patron and that of his Brethren ...", adding moreover that which verified what he said: "...and in Her honor he fasted most devoutly from the Feast of the Apostles Peter and Paul unto the Feast of the Assumption." (Leg. Mai. IX, 3) and states the matter even more clearly, where he says, "Now Francis, the servant of God, abiding at the church of the Virgin Mother of God, with continuous sighing besought Her that had conceived the Word full of grace and truth that She would deign to become his Advocate." (Leg. Mai. III,1) This devotion of the Poverello was not without great fruit, for the Seraphic Doctor writes, "...and by the merits of the Mother of Mercy, he did himself conceive and give birth unto the spirit of Gospel truth," (Leg. Mai. III, 1) recounting immediately afterwards the taking up of the Apostolic life by Francis on the Feast of Matthias in the year 1208 A.D..".

She then added: "I will appear at the hour of death to those who salute me thus, in such glory that they will anticipate the very joys of Heaven."

Some of the approved Sites of our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God's Holy Apparitions

Some early historical shrines built as a result of prayer to Our Lady, the nine major Church approved Marian apparition sites of Guadalupe, Rue du Bac, La Salette, Lourdes, Pontmain, Knock, Fatima, Beauraing, Banneux, Amsterdam. There is also information about "semi-approved" apparitions, those at Amsterdam, Tre Fontane and L'Ile Bouchard.

There have been many other reported Marian Apparitions during the 20th century, none of which have been approved by the church but some of which are still under investigation. Most notable of these is at Garabandal, Medjugorje, Akita in Japan and Naju in Korea where the reported weeping of a statue of Our Lady preceded many Eucharistic Miracles which continue to this day.

Our Lady of Walsingham - 1061

In 1061 Richeldis de Faverches is taken in spirit to Nazareth and asked by Our Lady to build a replica, in Norfolk, of the Holy House of the Annunciation.

Our Lady of the Rosary - 1208

Dominic de Guzman from Spain received a vision from Our Lady who showed him a wreath of roses, and told him to say the rosary daily, and teach it to all who would listen.

Our Lady of Sorrows - 1233

The Order of Friar Servants of Mary, known as Servites, was founded in Italy in 1233, when seven merchants from Florence in Italy experienced a beautiful yet very sad vision of Mary. She asked them to devote their lives to prayer and penance with a focus on the sufferings of Christ and on the seven sorrows she experienced in her life.

Our Lady of Mount Carmel - 1251

On July 16, 1251 the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared to Simon Stock and gave him the scapular as her special protection. Her promise to Simon and to the world, was: "Whosoever dies wearing this scapular shall not suffer eternal fire."

The Lady of Lavang, Vietnam - 1798

The first apparition of the Lady of Lavang was noted in 1798, when the persecution of Vietnamese Catholics began. Many Catholics from the nearby town of Quang Tri sought refuge in the deep forest of Lavang.

Our Lady of Guadalupe - 1531

The apparitions of Mary to Juan Diego at Guadalupe in Mexico, in 1531, happened only fourteen years after the initiation of the Reformation by Martin Luther. Thousandss of conversions occured as a result of these apparitions

Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal - 1830

The events connected with Catherine Labouré and the miraculous medal at Rue du Bac, France, in 1830, which coincided with the Paris Revolution of that year, happened in the aftermath of the French revolution.

Our Lady of the Miracle - 1842

"Since you abhor superstition and espouse such liberal views," he asks Alphonse, "would you consider submitting to a simple test?" "What test?" "To wear something I'm going to give you. It's a medal of the Holy Virgin. It appears quite ridiculous to you, no doubt. But as for me, I attach great importance to it." Our Lady appears to the Jew Alphonse Ratisbonne

Our Lady of La Salette, France - 1846

The apparition of Mary at La Salette in France in 1846, to two young children, Mélanie Calvat aged 14, and Maximin Giraud aged 11, took place shortly before the European revolutionary outbursts of 1848. These apparitions spoke strongly about the forthcoming changes in the Mass and the Church which started to occur after the start of Vatican II

Our Lady of Lourdes - 1858

The apparitions at Lourdes, in 1858, to Bernadette Soubirous, occurred just a year before the publication of Charles Darwin's Origin of the Species, an event which represents the beginning of the modern atheistic intellectual revolution.

Our Lady of Pontmain - 1871

The apparition at Pontmain in France to four young children, in 1871, took place at the time of the Franco-Prussian War.

Our Lady Pellevoisin - 1876

The first part of the apparitions in Pellevoisin started in the night of February 14, 1876 when Our Lady apppeared to 23 year old Estelle Faguette

Our Lady of Knock - 1879

The apparition at Knock in Ireland a group of villages of mixed ages, in 1879, fortified the Irish in their struggle against religious and social oppression.

Our Lady of Fatima - 1917

The apparitions at Fatima in Portugal to Lucia dos Santos, aged 10, and her cousins, Jacinta and Francisco Marto, aged 7 and 8 respectively, in 1917, took place just as the Russian Revolution was unfolding.

Our Lady of Beauraing - 1932

The apparitions at Beauraing, to five young children, and Banneux, to one young girl, Mariette Beco, in 1930s Belgium, happened just as Hitler was coming to power in Germany.

Our Lady of Banneaux - 1933

The Blessed Virgin appeared to Mariette Beco 6 times over a period of 5 weeks stating: "I am the Virgin of the poor." and "I am the Mother of the Saviour, Mother of God, Pray much,"

Our Lady of Zeitun, Egypt - 1968

Starting in April, 1968, the apparitions of light changed the lives of thousands. Our Lady was seen by more than a million people. The apparitions were broadcast by Egyptian TV, photographed by hundreds of professional photographers and personally witnessed by Egyptian President Abdul Nasser, an avowed Marxist.

The above major apparitions, which are generally recognised as the most important Marian apparitions, have all enjoyed official Church recognition. The following are in varying stages of recognition:

Semi-approved Sites of Marian Apparitions

Amsterdam - 1945 to 1959

Our Lady started to appear to Ida Peerdeman in 1945 when she was forty years old. The apparitions began on March 25, 1945, just before the end of WWII. They link in strongly with the messages of La Salette and Fatima

 

[Galilee63]

Saint Catherine Laboure'

Jesus and The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God's Holy Miraculous Medal:

Catholic Online › Saints & Angels

(Part of Our Blessed Virgin Mary's Holy Words to Saint Sister Catherine Laboure' within this link; not all most unfortunately).

 

[Galilee63]

Saints & Angels - Catholic Online

holyspiritinteractive.net/dailysaint

www.catholic-saints.info

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_saints

www.catholic-saints.net

www.catholicsaints.net


www.roman-catholic-saints.com

www.catholic-saints.info/roman-catholic-saints-a-g/index.htm


These are some of the Catholic Saints many of whom have had Jesus Christ our Saviour and The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God appear in Holiness and Holy spoken Words to these Saints of which may be of great interest to Christians whom have not read about Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit's chosen priests Jesus and The Blessed Virgin Mary have appeared throughout the ages.

Love and kindest wishes your Sister in Jesus Christ our Saviour

 

[bbbbbbb]

it is an ancient Christian practice that can be traced back to the early martyrs

how can you scrutinize that?

Do you mean Bible worship? I agree that the early martyrs were quite keen to preserve the Bible so that we might have the pure, unadulterated Word of God, but I seriously doubt that they erected altars to the Bible, burned candles in front of it, and asked it to intercede for them with God. Do you have any evidence of this?

 

[bbbbbbb]

L'Ile Bouchard - 1947

The first apparition in the church at L'Ile Bouchard took place on the feast of the Immaculate Conception. At about one o'clock in the afternoon, Jacqueline Aubry, aged 12, her sister Jeanette, aged 7, and their cousin, Nicole Robin, aged 10, were on their way back to school after lunch in the Aubry house, when, at Jacqueline's suggestion, they stopped at the church of St Gilles to pray. She repeatedly requested: "Tell the little children to pray for France, for her need is great."

Tre Fontane - 1953

Better known as 'The Weeping Madonna of Syracuse' led to weeping of tears on numerous occasions over four days. It is as if this was the final appeal of Mary, who had said all she had to say at Fatima and in her other recognized apparitions, and now, because her pleas were being largely ignored, was reduced to silent tears.

Akita, Japan - 1973 - 1975

In 1973, the Blessed Virgin Mary gave Sister Agnes Katsuko Sasagawa in Akita, Japan three messages through a statute of Mary. The messages are strongly linked with those of Fatima

Betania, Venuezuela - 1976 to date

Approved by the Catholic Church, November 21, 1987, this 20th century apparition is still taking place. Our Lady of Betania, Venezuela appears to visionary Maria Esperanza. The Virgin Mary manifests herself under the title, "Mary, Virgin and mother Reconciler of all people and nations.

Kibeho, Rwanda - 1981 to 1988

In November 1981, apparitions began in Kibeho, Rwanda, Africa, to seven visionaries: Alphonsine, Emmanuel, Anathalie, Marie-Claire, Stephanie, Agnes, and Vestine. The apparitions in Kibeho, Africa, were approved in the first stage by the local bishop on August 15, 1988, thus allowing public devotion. The Church is continuing to review these events.

Naju, Korea - 1985 to date

It was almost midnight on June 30,1985 when the Blessed Mother wept for the first time through her statue in Naju, at that time Julia Kim,the owner of the Statue was running her own a Beauty Salon in Naju. The Blessed Mother's weeping tears and tears of blood continued intermittently for the next 7 years for a total of exactly 700 days until Jan 14,1992. But the greatest miracles to occur in Naju are those during Communion at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass when the Sacred Host turns into flesh and blood on Julia's tongue. This has been witnessed by many priests, including a Papal Nuncio sent by the Pope to investigate, as well as hundreds of ordinary people.

Sites of Marian Apparitions of importance Still Under Church Investigation

Garabandal, Spain - 1961 to 1965

The apparitions of Our Lady to Conchita Gonzalez, Maria Dolores Mazon, Jacinta Gonzalez and Maria Cruz Gonzalez and at Garabandal were preceded by two single visits in preparation from Saint Michael the Archangel. The messages given by Our Lady follow the same theme as those given in Fatima, Amsterdam and Naju. These apparitions were also remarkable for a Eucharistic Miracle when the Sacred Host appeared on the tongue of Conchita.

Medjugorje, Bosnia-Herzegovina - 1981 to date

Our Lady’s messages are simple and have never altered over the 21 years - her call to prayer, fasting, penance, conversion, and the Eucharist. The fruits of Medugorje continue to be an increase in prayer, regular confessions, fasting (No bishop in the world, no pope, ever invited millions to fast.) and an ever increasing love of the Eucharist both through increased attendances at Holy Mass and Eucharistic Adoration by those who have been on pilgrimage to Medugorje. Over 24 million people have brought back home an improved faith and devotion to Our Divine Lord and are spreading the simple messages of His Beloved Mother.

Another website entitled Apparitions.org gives a good list of apparition sites approved, still under investigation and condemned by the Church.


Love and kindest wishes your Sister in Jesus Christ our Saviour

So, what is the big deal about the Sacred Host turning into flesh and blood on a Catholic's tongue? I am told that this happens literally every time a Catholic receives communion. Is this not so?

 

[concretecamper]

So, what is the big deal about the Sacred Host turning into flesh and blood on a Catholic's tongue? I am told that this happens literally every time a Catholic receives communion. Is this not so?

what you have been told is wrong

 

[Rhamiel]

Do you mean Bible worship? I agree that the early martyrs were quite keen to preserve the Bible so that we might have the pure, unadulterated Word of God, but I seriously doubt that they erected altars to the Bible, burned candles in front of it, and asked it to intercede for them with God. Do you have any evidence of this?

yes, we do owe a great debt to the early Christians for preserving the sacred scriptures and passing on the teaching that the Holy Spirit inspired the Scripture

but we can also see those same early Christians honoring the martyrs and building shrines, venerating the bones of martyrs, and other practices that modern Protestants find so abhorrent

So, what is the big deal about the Sacred Host turning into flesh and blood on a Catholic's tongue? I am told that this happens literally every time a Catholic receives communion. Is this not so?

close
we do not believe it is turned on the tongue, but rather when it is blessed by the Priest during the Mass
normally when this change happens, the adjectives stay the same
this is a miracle where the substance, and the appearance, both changed

 

[bbbbbbb]

what you have been told is wrong

So, do you not believe that the consecrated host is the true flesh of Jesus Christ and the consecrated wine is the ture blood of Jesus Christ?

Here is what your Catechism says -

1381 "That in this sacrament are the true Body of Christ and his true Blood is something that 'cannot be apprehended by the senses,' says St. Thomas, 'but only by faith, which relies on divine authority.' For this reason, in a commentary on Luke 22:19 ('This is my body which is given for you.'), St. Cyril says: 'Do not doubt whether this is true, but rather receive the words of the Savior in faith, for since he is the truth, he cannot lie.'"

 

[concretecamper]

So, what is the big deal about the Sacred Host turning into flesh and blood on a Catholic's tongue? I am told that this happens literally every time a Catholic receives communion. Is this not so?

This is your original question. The answer: It is not so.

The CCC 1381 does not address when the host becomes His flesh and blood.

 

[Albion]

So, do you not believe that the consecrated host is the true flesh of Jesus Christ and the consecrated wine is the ture blood of Jesus Christ?

Here is what your Catechism says -

1381 "That in this sacrament are the true Body of Christ and his true Blood is something that 'cannot be apprehended by the senses,' says St. Thomas, 'but only by faith, which relies on divine authority.' For this reason, in a commentary on Luke 22:19 ('This is my body which is given for you.'), St. Cyril says: 'Do not doubt whether this is true, but rather receive the words of the Savior in faith, for since he is the truth, he cannot lie.'"

If you said the host was the true body of Christ, you'd be told you were wrong. If you said it was NOT the true body of Christ, you'd be told you were wrong. Some people think they see a pattern.

 

[justinangel]

Justin, my friend, I have many times pointed out that Matt 16:18 does not say what you want it to say, but worse, you have apparently refused to listen to that other very important point--you cannot prove anything about the Apostolic Church's thinking about church leadership by citing the comments of ECF's or Councils from hundreds of years later in time. That should be obvious to everyone .

The Council of Chalcedon was comprised of 600 bishops from the eastern churches for the purpose of finally resolving the Arian crisis which the First Ecumenical Council at Nicaea failed to do. Mainstream Protestants accept the Christological concepts defined by the fathers at Nicaea which were ratified at Chalcedon. So whatever the fathers thought at any of the general councils was in line with the Apostolic Tradition.

PAX

 

[Albion]

The Council of Chalcedon was comprised of 600 bishops from the eastern churches for the purpose of finally resolving the Arian crisis which the First Ecumenical Council at Nicaea failed to do. Mainstream Protestants accept the Christological concepts defined by the fathers at Nicaea which were ratified at Chalcedon.

But only because the findings were supported by Scripture. Surely you don't imagine that these Protestants believe in the Trinity solely because 600 men got together and voted on it!

 

[bbbbbbb]

This is your original question. The answer: It is not so.

The CCC 1381 does not address when the host becomes His flesh and blood.

This past September I had the privilege of attending a mass which was celebrated by a cardinal of your church. After consecrating the host he clearly stated that it was the flesh of Jesus Christ. After consecrating the wine he clearly stated that it was the blood of Jesus Christ. Was he in error or did he not actually believe what he said?

 

[bbbbbbb]

If you said the host was the true body of Christ, you'd be told you were wrong. If you said it was NOT the true body of Christ, you'd be told you were wrong. Some people think they see a pattern.

Hmmmmm.

 

[concretecamper]

This past September I had the privilege of attending a mass which was celebrated by a cardinal of your church. After consecrating the host he clearly stated that it was the flesh of Jesus Christ. After consecrating the wine he clearly stated that it was the blood of Jesus Christ. Was he in error or did he not actually believe what he said?

The Cardinal was not in error.

 

[MKJ]

Clement wrote an extremely forceful letter exhorting the Corinthians to come into line with his teachings. The tone of his letter certainly reflects an authority which was regarded as binding by the Church at Corinth: “If anyone disobey the things which have been said by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgressions and in no small danger.” These are very powerful words indeed, seeing that they come from a bishop outside the region. That the Bishop of Rome held universal jurisdiction is obvious. I see no reason why the Corinthians would write a letter to Clement instead of a local bishop, or even the apostle John, to settle their own disputes, unless the Bishop of Rome inherited Peter's primacy and the power to bind and loose.

Why wouldn't people appeal to a well thought of, important bishop, in a See known for resolving disputes? And why would they not, having done so, look at the judgement as holding real authority - that is the point of submitting oneself for a judgement, and it happens all the time in many settings. If I submit myself to my priest for a judgement on some controversy, I am in doing so putting myself under a kind of authority, but that isn't absolute, and it doesn't necessarily extend in other ways.

And of course if people disobey the things said by God, they will be responsible for that - any time they get that message from someone who they should consider as potentially being authoritative.

But it is not obvious that any of these things means that people believed in the kind of authority or protection from error suggested for the papacy.

I would also point out that you are only presenting instances where Rome is being presented in one way - but that wasn't always the attitude.

Common sense alone dictates that the final authority and protection from error in matters of faith and morals rests in one man. We could never be sure that we had the correct teaching unless there were a final authority which infallibly could not fail by the guaranty of the Holy Spirit. Without a visible head protected from teaching error and succumbing to apostasy, appointed by Christ himself to temporally act in his stead as vice-regent (vicar), we could never be sure that we were following Christ's teachings. Without such an authoritative Church we have a group of people who don't believe in the same things, which our Lord did not intend when he founded his Church on the Apostles, having given the keys to Peter. Certainly the Bible cannot serve as the single final teaching and ruling authority of the Church in matters of faith and morals. The principle of sola Scriptura has facilitated divisions within Christendom ever since the so-called reformers substituted the final teaching authority of the pope for Holy Writ.

No, it is not obvious nor common sense that some final authority would have to exist in an individual. On the contrary, I would suggest that such an arrangement would be the most unstable and dangerous possible.

The most stable would seem to me to be that the apprehension of correct teaching belongs properly to the Church, and it is only through agreement of the vast bulk of the Church through things like Tradition and conciliar agreement and other ways that any change in teaching should be allowed - a consensus model. Such a model is very stable, and preserves the teaching of the apostles from inappropriate and unnecessary innovation or additions. It is quite difficult to get everyone to agree to a change, especially when you give a vote to the saints - the democracy of the dead as Chesterton said.

The authority resting on an individual, in my view, is a catalyst for innovation, and in fact we see that it is after the papacy began to consolidate its power that many of the most controversial additions to the faith were made - some of them leading to schism.

It's that inheritance - the leadership defining new ways of thinking and attracting followers and opposition - rather than change only through consensus, that is the unfortunate inheritance of Protestantism from the Catholic Church.

In principle there wasn't much difference.

Well, that is what you are trying to argue, but it isn't so just because you say it. Is it a development, or not? If it isn't - well, I don't believe you. I don't think that the scholarship supports that. Schatz I think is a good source on this, and a good uncontroversial Catholic historian, and even he says that certainly in the first 200 years of Christianity, and possibly longer, you would not have had people seeing the papacy in that light. Other historians in Protestantism and Orthodoxy agree - you can't really get that from the EFC quotes.

If it is a development - well, then you have to show it as justified, which you haven't really attempted to do.

The Bishop of Rome had the final word in the ecumenical councils of the first millennium before the Great Schism. He was, so to speak, the final court of appeal when other clerics and even bishops of different regions violated traditional Church doctrines and Canon Law, even though he may not have attended any of these councils. Under these circumstances the Bishop of Rome was called to intervene to help preserve the unity of faith, and what he declared and ruled was unanimously accepted by the fathers attending these councils despite the few clerics who rejected what the councils may have decided in union with Peter's successor. It was in time of controversy that the Bishop of Rome's role as chief shepherd among shepherds shone forth in the one universal Church and visibly became more defined.

Except when he wasn't.

And except when every other patriarch cut off communion with him when he tried to impose a change in the Creed without their agreement. If his authority was accepted in the way you suggest, doesn't that seem a surprising turn of events?

 

[MKJ]

Do you mean Bible worship? I agree that the early martyrs were quite keen to preserve the Bible so that we might have the pure, unadulterated Word of God, but I seriously doubt that they erected altars to the Bible, burned candles in front of it, and asked it to intercede for them with God. Do you have any evidence of this?

I don't think you can assume candles and such mean that someone is saying something or someone is God.

In any case - idolotry of the Bible isn't unheard of, but since people who do it are usually iconoclasts, it isn't much to look at.

There is the common practice of not putting other things on top of Bibles or always putting them on the highest shelf.

It is not uncommon to find Christians from certain backgrounds who thing the Word - as in Christ - is in some way meant to be identified with the Word - as in Scripture.

And it is very common to meet Christians of a particular background who treat the Bible the way a Muslim treats the Qur'an, which is inappropriate in a Christian context.

KJV-onlyism is, I would say, a type of Bible idolatry, and so may be some types of creationism and Biblical literalism.