The snare of devotion to Mary.

[Zeek]

I do not understand how asking someone to intercede for you can be considered a 'snare'.

How are the words 'trap' & 'asking someone to pray for you' connected?

If I asked you to pray for me, am I creating a trap?

Or is the action of my asking someone to pray for me an act to trap observers?

I do not understand the question.

If this was all there was to it, then I could understand why you don't understand....I will try and answer more fully in my reply to Rhamiel which will cover your questions...thanks.

 

[MKJ]

Hi...thanks for your reply. Yes of course I also realise this is the case with many people, and that some of us who do not follow the Catholic tradition are apt to see something wrong and think that is what the Catholic Body teaches and the rest subscribe to...the point that Palinden Vader emphasized.



That is also true. However my concern involved several posts of obviously educated people in these Forums, that seemed to be pushing an agenda to elevate Mary to something that is inconsistant with the Bible.

To clarify....If we as Believers understand something of the nature, character and glory of G-d that permeates through Scripture, we would be especially careful not to attempt to encroach upon this...and Isaiah is very clear in chapters 40 through to 48 in extolling how far above all things G-d is, so much so that nothing comes close to comparison...it would be like trying to compare a grain of sand to a planet, and even then such a comparison would not express just how far above our understanding G-d actually is.

When you start ascribing things (virtues, graces etc) to a created being that have a direct connection to the awesome attributes of G-d Himself, then according to Isaiah a line has been crossed...or as Romans sort of puts it, a created entity is getting the sort of response that only belongs to G-d.

Personally I don't think any of this has anything to do with Mary at all, but is largely down to teachings that stray into assumptions, and may be responsible for making some people believe things that just aren't right.

I think you are worried about a problem that is almost non-existant. It is much more common to see people failing to give Mary her proper place or to fail to realize the importance of the communion of saints.

 

[Zeek]

Zeek
since you criticized what you view as over stepping the bounds of devotion...

what would you recommend for Catholics as to how far devotion should go?

this is your thread...
it seems unfair to condemn without offering a positive alternative

You misunderstand the fullness of the point I have been trying to make Rhamiel...from some of the answers given by a number of Catholic Believers on this thread, I think it is fair to say that some people agree that the focus on Mary by some people within Catholicism goes to far.

I strongly suggested that SCIM went waaaay too far and moved from what is acceptable into what isn't....in as far as it looks to me as if it is idolatry, especially when Mary is venerated to such an extent that the edges blur and for many it must be difficult to know where to draw the line.

In answer xTx...the 'trap' or the 'snare' is found within the Catholic portrayal of Mary and the insistence by some that devotion to her in various forms is an integral part of salvation.

I am not here to offer an alternative as I am not Catholic so the problem will never occur...but the simple answer is don't go overboard on Mary because for some it will be a snare...not Mary herself, for she is what she has always been, the blessed mother of our Saviour...but the copious amounts of hymns, prayers, devotions and other writings that in some cases cross a line.

 

[Zeek]

I think you are worried about a problem that is almost non-existant. It is much more common to see people failing to give Mary her proper place or to fail to realize the importance of the communion of saints.

With all due respect that is another issue....Mary's proper place would obviously be seen within the interaction of the Apostles in their writings, expecially if it was so vital.

My point stands that what I saw and wrote about at the start of this thread is not right and goes too far....therefore it is dangerous, especially for those that get drawn into this sort of religious bondage that detracts from the simplicity of the Gospel.

 

[Rhamiel]

I think many Catholics misunderstand devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary as being optional

particular expressions of this devotion are optional

but on the Cross, the apex of Salvation History, does Christ draw attention to Himself?
Jesus does not say to John "behold Me"
He says "behold your Mother"
and John, in the book of Revelation, 12:17, shows that all those who follow the commands of God are to be counted as the children of Mary

 

[xTx]

In answer xTx...the 'trap' or the 'snare' is found within the Catholic portrayal of Mary and the insistence by some that devotion to her in various forms is an integral part of salvation.

I think it is all a matter of perspective.

You have your point of view and others have their own point of view.

At the end of the day, we all want one thing, heaven.

That is my perspective

Hope you have been having a smooth space ride on space ship Earth.

 

[Zeek]

I think many Catholics misunderstand devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary as being optional

particular expressions of this devotion are optional

but on the Cross, the apex of Salvation History, does Christ draw attention to Himself?
Jesus does not say to John "behold Me"
He says "behold your Mother"
and John, in the book of Revelation, 12:17, shows that all those who follow the commands of God are to be counted as the children of Mary

My friend, IMO that is a very peculiar way of looking at things.

Ok expressions of devotion to Mary are optional...I suppose that includes anything vaguely bordering on the idolatrous....but I would have thought this is a very important thing to be clear on.

You by-pass the whole point of the cross and focus on Jesus' words concerning John and Mary because Jesus doesn't say 'behold Me'.
The very fact that the L-rd is on the cross shouts to the Heavens that the Lamb that is slain, is slain for our sins....and Scripture everywhere confirms the debt of sin being paid by Jesus on the cross....what it does not do is elaborate on this idea about Mary.

Taking that single verse in Rev 12:17 and assigning it to Mary is in my opinion very tenuous...I know the Catholic Church promote it as such, and I have gone over it many times...but it does not stand strongly enough on its own, and I find everything to do with Mary comes largely from traditions that arose later...some of which I think are at the very least speculative and rather unhelpful....while other practices are plainly unscriptural in the best sense of that expression without digging up the sola scriptura counter argument.

 

[Zeek]

I think it is all a matter of perspective.

You have your point of view and others have their own point of view.

At the end of the day, we all want one thing, heaven.

That is my perspective

Hope you have been having a smooth space ride on space ship Earth.

Every one can have a view-point, but that doesn't alter what is true.

Heaven or eternity with the L-rd and all saints etc lies at the end of the race, in the meantime we immerse ourselves in faith, hope and love by the grace of G-d and the power of the Holy Spirit.

Plenty of time for 'beam me up Scotty' at the end of the journey.

 

[Rhamiel]

Matthew 7:16
By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

you look at the lives of the Saints with the deepest devotion to Mary and you also see the Saints with the deepest devotion to Christ

so as much people here "warn" about devotion to Mary..... I do not see cause for concern

 

[Zeek]

Matthew 7:16
By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

you look at the lives of the Saints with the deepest devotion to Mary and you also see the Saints with the deepest devotion to Christ

so as much people here "warn" about devotion to Mary..... I do not see cause for concern

I think many Christians do not really understand what constitutes 'good fruit' as opposed to 'bad fruit', and the L-rd makes it clear in the same passage that many who call Him L-rd; and whose lives before men look good, are in fact anathema to Him...so I do see cause for concern.

My own thoughts are that many things have been written by people or about people that do not truly expose their hearts, and Christians by their very nature have a willingness to trust, but often lack the understanding to discern.

 

[Mary's Bhoy]

I strongly suggested that SCIM went waaaay too far and moved from what is acceptable into what isn't....in as far as it looks to me as if it is idolatry, especially when Mary is venerated to such an extent that the edges blur and for many it must be difficult to know where to draw the line.

I know where the line is. Everything that God is by nature, Mary is by grace.

I have not went "waaay too far." Perhaps for your own personal tastes, but not according to the teaching of the Church. I have founded my views on the bedrock of magisterial teaching, and the words and examples of the greatest Doctors of the Church and holy saints.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
Mary's Bhoy.

 

[justinangel]

I have no problem with certain traditions that any Christians might find useful or faith building, as long as they do not contradict what has already been revealed...

It just might be that Marian traditions in Christendom contradict only what you think you understand has been revealed in Scripture. Your understanding of divine revelation according to your private interpretation of Scripture or religious persuasion might not be as clear as you think it is, and so you may see contradictions that aren't really there, but rather appear to exist.

PAX

 

[Zeek]

It just might be that Marian traditions in Christendom contradict only what you think you understand has been revealed in Scripture. Your understanding of divine revelation according to your private interpretation of Scripture or religious persuasion might not be as clear as you think it is, and so you may see contradictions that aren't really there, but rather appear to exist.

PAX

I have been around long enough to know when something looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...it is probably a duck....and a number of Catholics have expressed that they have seen others going too far in devotion to Mary...therefore, even though I am not a Catholic, and do not share the majority of your traditions I am reassured that what I have been disturbed about has a degree of traction among some Catholics.

I don't have a 'private interpretation of Scripture', and with a bit of application and the Holy Spirit working in us, most of Scripture is quite clear and means exactly what it says....but it often takes man made theology and poor traditions to obscure the clarity of G-ds words.

Isaiah 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

Isaiah 46: 5 “To whom would you liken Me
And make Me equal and compare Me,
That we would be alike?

9“Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,

When I look at some peoples quotes, especially those that like the writings of Louis de Montfort, it forces me to read excerpts from his books and without a shadow of a doubt he tries to elevate Mary to a position almost equal to G-d....this is not only wrong but flies in the face of much older traditions adopted by righteous Jews who put a fence (gezeirah) around the Torah so that people won't even come near to commiting an offence.

If you don't believe me I will supply half a dozen quotes that make Mary an integral part of salvation in a way that not only isn't found in Scripture, but actually works against what has been revealed....now I don't usually have a problem with traditions, religious or otherwise...but I do when they are unhelpful or erode what has been established by G-d.

 

[justinangel]

I have been around long enough to know when something looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...it is probably a duck....and a number of Catholics have expressed that they have seen others going too far in devotion to Mary...therefore, even though I am not a Catholic, and do not share the majority of your traditions I am reassured that what I have been disturbed about has a degree of traction among some Catholics.

And who are Catholics and non-Catholics to judge the hearts of practitioners in how they express their devotion to Mary their beloved mother?

I don't have a 'private interpretation of Scripture', and with a bit of application and the Holy Spirit working in us, most of Scripture is quite clear and means exactly what it says....but it often takes man made theology and poor traditions to obscure the clarity of G-ds words.

Southern Baptists and Reformed Presbyterians, for instance, believe that with the right application and the Holy Spirit working in them Scripture means exactly what it says. Yet they can't agree with each other whether an infant or a very young child ought to be baptized. Anyway, Scripture is indeed clear on what idolatry is. But we mustn't confuse it with the act of consecrating and devoting ourselves to other human beings by virtue of their merits and prerogatives, especially if they are acknowledged and granted by God.

When I look at some peoples quotes, especially those that like the writings of Louis de Montfort, it forces me to read excerpts from his books and without a shadow of a doubt he tries to elevate Mary to a position almost equal to G-d....

Not unlike many other saints who were devoted to their Blessed Mother, St. Louis de Montfort did consecrate himself to Mary. By this Catholics mean that he placed himself in Mary’s custody as a child naturally places himself in the custody of his mother, placing his trust in her love for him and her protection and guidance, without which he cannot be nurtured and properly formed. It is not idolatry to place such a trust in another human being, whether it be our natural mother or our spiritual mother for our wellbeing. All Christians who consecrate themselves to Mary primarily do so in order to become more like Jesus and thereby closer to God. Under her maternal protection and patronage they receive abundant signal graces that will help form their spiritual development and live out God’s plan in their lives. They consecrate themselves to her Immaculate Heart to become saints with the help of God’s grace that is dispensed through Mary’s prayerful intercession.

Then he went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them. His mother treasured all these things in her heart. And Jesus increased in wisdom and in years, and in divine and human favor.
Luke 2, 51-52

Thus entrusting oneself to our Blessed Mother is a sure way to become more like Jesus in his relationship with the Father and also, incidentally, in his relationship with his mother. It was Mary who helped teach the child Jesus how to pray, understand the tenets of the Torah, and be a good and kind person to everyone. In his developing humanity he was just as dependent on the protection and guidance of his mother as we are in our spiritual growth. Certainly Jesus did not commit idolatry by relying on his mother for his nurturing and growth, whether physically or spiritually, while he was still a very young child. If Jesus gave himself to his mother, then so should we in imitation of him. Catholics believe that Jesus expects us to, especially in light of our spiritual combat with Satan and the powers of darkness.

When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing beside her, he said to his mother, “Woman, here is your son.” Then he said to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his own home.
John 19, 26-27

Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.
Revelation 12, 17

If you don't believe me I will supply half a dozen quotes that make Mary an integral part of salvation in a way that not only isn't found in Scripture, but actually works against what has been revealed....

Mary is an integral part of salvation. She gave birth to our Lord and Saviour. As St. Augustine acknowledged, Mary conceived Jesus in her womb only because she had first conceived him in her heart. By her act of faith working through love, God became man. Jesus wasn't formed from clay like Adam was for a reason.

We too have an integral part to play in the application of the salvation Christ gained for us in our individual lives. Perhaps you fail to see this because of your exaggerated notion of sola Christo. One false belief does lead to another.

“Listen! I am standing at the door, knocking; if you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to you and eat with you, and you with me.”
Revelation 3, 20

PAX

 

[yogosans14]

I saw my mother-in-law die before my eyes putting her faith in Mary. Days before she died I asked her if Mary can save her and she actually said yes. Then in her dying moments, my father-in-law pushed me in front of her to pray for her as she was dying before our eyes. I simply prayed out loud in front of everyone that she would put her faith in Jesus, and ONLY JESUS. There was protesting in the background "wala na Maria? wala na Maria?", which is Filipino language for "No Mary?? No Marry??". You see how deceived they all are. It is sad. You see how the devil uses that poison to add something to Jesus.[bless and do not curse]

That is a disturbing quote...Read this from a post I saw on another christian forum

 

[yogosans14]

I know where the line is. Everything that God is by nature, Mary is by grace.

I have not went "waaay too far." Perhaps for your own personal tastes, but not according to the teaching of the Church. I have founded my views on the bedrock of magisterial teaching, and the words and examples of the greatest Doctors of the Church and holy saints.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
Mary's Bhoy.

Yes. It is WAY to far. No offense but this is satanic! A different Gospel. Saying Making a devotion to mary is necessary to salvation is a lie straight from the pits of hell. I may sound like a radical protestant but its the truth.

 

[mark46]

We are in GT. So, we are allowed to be blunt.
======================
Devotions to Mary are NOT required in any way for salvation.

To believe that Mary is a current participant in salvation is NOT what the Catholic Church teaches. We are confusing things by stating the obvious importance of Mary's "yes" in the story of salvation. This does not imply that adoration of Mary is acceptable. This does not imply that devotions are required.

Perhaps we need to be clear what is meant by the word "salvation". We are discussing what is often called "justification", making a sinner right with God. Mary CANNOT do this. Only Jesus can do this.
======

When a Protestant sees Catholics saying that Mary is currently part of salvation and that devotions to her are needed for salvation, they RIGHTLY conclude that what is being taught is ANOTHER gospel. As we all understand, Saint Paul warned us against those who would teach another gospel.
======

Perhaps Protestants go a bit overboard when they teach that we are saved
By GRACE alone
through FAITH alone
in CHRIST JESUS alone.

Most of understand that faith is not enough. We can have faith and yet reject Jesus later in our lives. Salvation is not a one time act. But OSAS is another discussion.
================
My BOTTOM LINE is that salvation is all about Jesus and our relationship to Him.
And even if we do not accept Jesus, He might still (in His Divine Mercy) choose us for heaven. The Catholic Church teaches that Jews and other non-Christians can indeed by saved by Jesus.

What is NOT acceptable within orthodox Christianity is the requirement that anyone other than Jesus is required for salvation.

And yes, I do believe that Jesus might indeed choose to save those individuals who accept this false gospel. HOWEVER, Saint Paul is clear that the teaching of a false gospel may very well damn an individual. Leading folks astray is a serious matter.
===========

 

[yogosans14]

We are in GT. So, we are allowed to be blunt.
======================
Devotions to Mary are NOT required in any way for salvation.

To believe that Mary is a current participant in salvation is NOT what the Catholic Church teaches. We are confusing things by stating the obvious importance of Mary's "yes" in the story of salvation. This does not imply that adoration of Mary is acceptable. This does not imply that devotions are required.

Perhaps we need to be clear what is meant by the word "salvation". We are discussing what is often called "justification", making a sinner right with God. Mary CANNOT do this. Only Jesus can do this.
======

When a Protestant sees Catholics saying that Mary is currently part of salvation and that devotions to her are needed for salvation, they RIGHTLY conclude that what is being taught is ANOTHER gospel. As we all understand, Saint Paul warned us against those who would teach another gospel.
======

Perhaps Protestants go a bit overboard when they teach that we are saved
By GRACE alone
through FAITH alone
in CHRIST JESUS alone.

Most of understand that faith is not enough. We can have faith and yet reject Jesus later in our lives. Salvation is not a one time act. But OSAS is another discussion.
================
My BOTTOM LINE is that salvation is all about Jesus and our relationship to Him.
And even if we do not accept Jesus, He might still (in His Divine Mercy) choose us for heaven. The Catholic Church teaches that Jews and other non-Christians can indeed by saved by Jesus.

What is NOT acceptable within orthodox Christianity is the requirement that anyone other than Jesus is required for salvation.

And yes, I do believe that Jesus might indeed choose to save those individuals who accept this false gospel. HOWEVER, Saint Paul is clear that the teaching of a false gospel may very well damn an individual. Leading folks astray is a serious matter.
===========

Thank you for that. Yes a false gospel will send some on to Hell (Mormins and Jehovahs Witnesses will be going to 'the lake of fire sadly). Also Protestants atleast I believe can reject Jesus and if we do we are lost. I dont believe sacraments can merit us grace or that commit a sin Makes us in a state where we have to confess to a priest or we will go to hell. Once your born again your a new creature, the inncurruptable seed in us cannot be taken away by stumbling.

 

[Rhamiel]

I saw my mother-in-law die before my eyes putting her faith in Mary. Days before she died I asked her if Mary can save her and she actually said yes. Then in her dying moments, my father-in-law pushed me in front of her to pray for her as she was dying before our eyes. I simply prayed out loud in front of everyone that she would put her faith in Jesus, and ONLY JESUS. There was protesting in the background "wala na Maria? wala na Maria?", which is Filipino language for "No Mary?? No Marry??". You see how deceived they all are. It is sad. You see how the devil uses that poison to add something to Jesus.[bless and do not curse]

That is a disturbing quote...Read this from a post I saw on another christian forum

wow, trying to confuse a dying woman

what a hero....
and the line about "does she actually believe that Mary can save her" reeks of condescension
people actually believed that handkerchiefs that touched Paul would heal people, Acts of the Apostles 19:12

"only Jesus" means we do not have a family?
wow, you guys are really literal about the verse about hating out mother and father if we are to follow Jesus.

 

[mark46]

OSAS (once saved always saved) has had many, many threads. This is not one of them.

Most Christians do not take that view now, and did not in the Early Church.

Since you mention OSAS, I will comment. Most Christians, including me, consider this idea to be a false gospel, and heresy.

Thank you for that. Yes a false gospel will send some on to Hell (Mormins and Jehovahs Witnesses will be going to 'the lake of fire sadly). Also Protestants atleast I believe can reject Jesus and if we do we are lost. I dont believe sacraments can merit us grace or that commit a sin Makes us in a state where we have to confess to a priest or we will go to hell. Once your born again your a new creature, the inncurruptable seed in us cannot be taken away by stumbling.