The snare of devotion to Mary.

[bbbbbbb]

Friends...I was hoping the thread might not get side-tracked and that the issues raised might be more fully explored.

I apologize.

 

[MrMoe]

Purgatory is a required belief.

I know but is it a doctrine or a dogma?
I understand that all dogmas are doctrine but not all doctrines are dogmas.

And from the Baltimore Catechism (published 1885):

"Question: What is Purgatory?

Answer:

Purgatory is a state in which those suffer for a time who die guilty of venial sins, or without having satisfied for the punishment due to their sins.

Some say purgatory is a place and other say it's not a place but a process and that it would probably takes no time at all. Has this been defined?

Question: Can the faithful on earth help the souls in Purgatory?

Answer:

The faithful on earth can help the souls in Purgatory by their prayers, fasts, alms-deeds; by indulgences, and by having Masses said for them."

(public domain)

It's a simpler explanation, as it was intended to educate children, but you can still see the different emphasis over the CCC quoted above.

How can someone help a soul in purgatory with their prayers, fasts, alms, indulgences and by having mass said to them?

 

[mark46]

They are not mutually exclusive, but they should be.

I have never (even as a Protestant) had any problem with Pope's Benedict's understanding of Purgatory. I have always explained purgatory to be the mudroom of heaven, where we are purified and prepared. Many respond that if that is what the Church taught, almost all would believe in the doctrine.

Purgatory as punishment for sin is a different understanding, held by many, and with much support in the Tradition of the Church. It is good that we are coming to understand this better now.

Just BTW, many of pray that there will a better understanding of Original Sin also, closer wo what the Orthodox understand. Again, it is not the dogma or doctrine that can change; it is the understanding of the mysteries of the Church.

Purgatory is a required belief. Traditional belief is about it being a place to pay off the temporal consequences of our sins, our eternal consequences having already been forgiven (elsewise we would be on hell, not purgatory). A more recent interpretation is that it is a place to become more holy by getting rid of our sinful nature. I believe the latter view was promoted by Pope Benedict XVI when he wasCardinal Ratzinger.

It should be noted that the two views are not mutually exclusive.

 

[mark46]

Yup; we need to be cleaned up, purified and given help before we face the Lord.

Yes. Since St JPII was a major proponent of the CCC and promogulated it during his pontificate (the first Universal Catechism in centuries), it's fair to assume that he agreed with the view of Purgatory put forth in the CCC. Interestingly, I believe the Tractatrians in your own communion were some of the first ones to popularize this view in the 19th century. They saw it like "taking a shower before meeting the King/Queen".

 

[mark46]

This thread is for dealing with Marian dogma and doctrine.

As is usually the case, discussion often spreads to other reasons folks reject the RCC. This seems OK to me, if and only iff, we are really discussing with the idea of understanding.

I think that we are doing that here (but often not) in our discuss of Mary and of Purgatory.
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I fear that indulgences need a new thread. Many think that the selling of indulgences (and the right to be bishop and priest) was the most important cause of the Reformation.
===============
Folks say that we can't buy indulgences now, so there is no issue. I strongly disagree. I reject the Protestant notion that we can avoid hell forever by walking down the aisle and professing our faith. I also reject the RCC's notion that if I say certain prayers or visit certain sites, that I can avoid hell or Purgatory. What has changed is the COST of the indulgences, and also the abuse of indulgences. The fact of indulgences and the doctrine of indulgences remain. As we entered the Jubilee Year of 2000, there were many things that could be done to secure indulgences.

Personally, I find indulgences unacceptable. But perhaps that is a discussion for another thread.

Here is the interesting Wikipedia entry on the topic of indulgences - Indulgence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have often wondered about the Treasury of Merit. Perhaps you can explain its relationship to indulgences and the need for it if, indeed, Purgatory is really not at all anything to be dreaded.

 

[mark46]

Yes, Zeek, we seemed to have moved on to other major issues that folks don't understand about the Roman Catholic Church.

Are there still questions that are open? You seem to want details, "fuller exploration". IMHO, Roman Catholics do too much of this. We should learn from the Orthodox (and the Methodists). Our greatest gifts (sacraments) are mysteries. Our greets dogma are shrouded in mystery. When we children and we explored and explored with a priest (as I did with my rabbi as a child), one always finally reaches the same point. Someone raises there hands and says
"It's a mystery". And so it is.

You can certainly get an understanding of how the Church understanding Mary from the CCC and from the liturgy. Anglicans understand this. We are what we pray. We can discuss as long as you wish. We will respond. Sadly, I don't think that we will give any fuller understanding of what the Church teaches than that which you have already received. You WILL get more and more understanding of where we are personally on our own spiritual walk, and how we might understand Mary as part of that walk.

I agree with you that there are many Marian views, opinions and practices that are NOT doctrine, are NOT dogma, and do NOT need to be accepted. Catholics tend to ignore such over-reaching zealousness. Protestants tend to see this extremism as somehow changing what the Church beliefs.

So, I celebrate the clarifications and better understandings that the Church has come to on various doctrines. My personal view is that none of the ex cathedra statements about Mary needed to be made. They were all made after the schism, by part of the Church. In any case, I accept what the Church teaches and what is required. My view is that the Church has evolved in its understanding of dogma and doctrine. There can be no new revelations, but our understandings can change.

May the Lord bless you and keep you

Friends...I was hoping the thread might not get side-tracked and that the issues raised might be more fully explored.

 

[Zeek]

I apologize.

No worries...we all do it from time to time and I know Purgatory is also connected and an interesting subject. Thanks.

 

[Zeek]

Are there still questions that are open? You seem to want details, "fuller exploration". IMHO, Roman Catholics do too much of this. We should learn from the Orthodox (and the Methodists). Our greatest gifts (sacraments) are mysteries. Our greets dogma are shrouded in mystery. When we children and we explored and explored with a priest (as I did with my rabbi as a child), one always finally reaches the same point. Someone raises there hands and says
"It's a mystery". And so it is.

Yes there are things that will always remain a mystery ...but at times this is a cop out.

My whole concern has been to see if other Catholics recognize when devotion to Mary has turned into something it was never meant to be and become a literal worship of Mary and thus idolatry...and if this is the case, why don't people do anything about it?

I agree with you that there are many Marian views, opinions and practices that are NOT doctrine, are NOT dogma, and do NOT need to be accepted. Catholics tend to ignore such over-reaching zealousness. Protestants tend to see this extremism as somehow changing what the Church beliefs.

So, I celebrate the clarifications and better understandings that the Church has come to on various doctrines. My personal view is that none of the ex cathedra statements about Mary needed to be made. They were all made after the schism, by part of the Church. In any case, I accept what the Church teaches and what is required. My view is that the Church has evolved in its understanding of dogma and doctrine. There can be no new revelations, but our understandings can change.

Nicely put....gives me a better handle on things.

May the Lord bless you and keep you

Thank you, and may the L-rd be a constant source of inner joy to you and may you and yours be sustained and refreshed by the Spirit of Truth and the light of His Word.

 

[Unix]

I'd like to study that a bit, broadly. (I may have some books on that if I check):

Just BTW, many of pray that there will a better understanding of Original Sin also, closer wo what the Orthodox understand. Again, it is not the dogma or doctrine that can change; it is the understanding of the mysteries of the Church.

 

[Unix]

It's been a very long time since I showed any interest in those two Churches, so thanks for pointing out!:

Are there still questions that are open? You seem to want details, "fuller exploration". IMHO, Roman Catholics do too much of this. We should learn from the Orthodox (and the Methodists). Our greatest gifts (sacraments) are mysteries. Our greets dogma are shrouded in mystery. When we children and we explored and explored with a priest (as I did with my rabbi as a child), one always finally reaches the same point. Someone raises there hands and says
"It's a mystery". And so it is.

 

[mark46]

I'd like to study that a bit, broadly. (I may have some books on that if I check):

As JPII used to say we are right and left lung of the Church.

However, since we parted in 787, several important differences in understanding have arisen over the centuries.

See below for an Orthodox discussion of "Original Sin". Actually, the Orthodox reject the idea entirely and have an understanding of the human condition which they call "ancestral sin".

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Original_sin

http://oca.org/questions/teaching/original-sin

I would also note that an Orthodox would never said that Jesus died as a payment for our sin (or our sin debt as some say). This punishment model is a Western idea. For the Orthodox, Jesus died and defeated death, He rose and removed the separation between humanity and God. Though His death and resurrection, we are free to become more conformed to Jesus and to become reconciled to the Father (more and more every day). This concept is called "theosis" and is the same as the Catholic "divinization", an idea that has been all but ignored for centuries.

 

[Tallguy88]

See below for an Orthodox discussion of "Original Sin". Actually, the Orthodox reject the idea entirely and have an understanding of the human condition which they call "ancestral sin".

Original sin - OrthodoxWiki

I would note that an Orthodox would never said that Jesus died as a payment for our sin (or sin debt as some say). This punishment model is a Western idea. For the Orthodox, Jesus died and defeated death, and removed the separation between humanity and God. Though His death, we are free to become more conformed to Jesus and to become reconciled to the Father (more and more every day). This concept is called "thesis" and is the same as the Catholic "divinization", an idea that has been all but ignored for centuries.

"Theosis". And I rather like the idea myself.

 

[mark46]

"Theosis". And I rather like the idea myself.

fixed

and me too!

 

[Rhamiel]

"Theosis". And I rather like the idea myself.

theosis is part off western theology as well
though it could be emphasized more

 

[mark46]

Yes, we used to call it "divination".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divinization_(Christian)

theosis is part off western theology as well
though it could be emphasized more

 

[MKJ]

You can't outright buy an indulgence anymore. Nor can you get one for a donation. Usually you obtain indulgences by certain prayers on certain days.

Yes, which still supports the older understanding rather than the more palatable modern one.

It really isn't the paying money that is an issue - really, giving alms theoretically is a perfectly legitimate spiritual exercise. It is the idea of paying in any coin, be it prayer of alms or pilgrimage. Similarly the way penance is understood.

 

[MKJ]

Yes there are things that will always remain a mystery ...but at times this is a cop out.

My whole concern has been to see if other Catholics recognize when devotion to Mary has turned into something it was never meant to be and become a literal worship of Mary and thus idolatry...and if this is the case, why don't people do anything about it?



Nicely put....gives me a better handle on things.



Thank you, and may the L-rd be a constant source of inner joy to you and may you and yours be sustained and refreshed by the Spirit of Truth and the light of His Word.

You might want to consider that something could be over-emphasized, or done in not the absolute best way by all, but NOT be idolatry.

I think you would find very few Catholics in the world today who would tell you that Mary was the same sort of thing as God. And that is what they would need to believe to be making her an idol. Any that did, I suspect, would be people who had received almost no teaching for some reason. That can happen in almost any religious group at times, and often is nobody's fault, it is a matter of circumstances.

 

[Zeek]

You might want to consider that something could be over-emphasized, or done in not the absolute best way by all, but NOT be idolatry.

Hi...thanks for your reply. Yes of course I also realise this is the case with many people, and that some of us who do not follow the Catholic tradition are apt to see something wrong and think that is what the Catholic Body teaches and the rest subscribe to...the point that Palinden Vader emphasized.

I think you would find very few Catholics in the world today who would tell you that Mary was the same sort of thing as God. And that is what they would need to believe to be making her an idol. Any that did, I suspect, would be people who had received almost no teaching for some reason. That can happen in almost any religious group at times, and often is nobody's fault, it is a matter of circumstances.

That is also true. However my concern involved several posts of obviously educated people in these Forums, that seemed to be pushing an agenda to elevate Mary to something that is inconsistant with the Bible.

To clarify....If we as Believers understand something of the nature, character and glory of G-d that permeates through Scripture, we would be especially careful not to attempt to encroach upon this...and Isaiah is very clear in chapters 40 through to 48 in extolling how far above all things G-d is, so much so that nothing comes close to comparison...it would be like trying to compare a grain of sand to a planet, and even then such a comparison would not express just how far above our understanding G-d actually is.

When you start ascribing things (virtues, graces etc) to a created being that have a direct connection to the awesome attributes of G-d Himself, then according to Isaiah a line has been crossed...or as Romans sort of puts it, a created entity is getting the sort of response that only belongs to G-d.

Personally I don't think any of this has anything to do with Mary at all, but is largely down to teachings that stray into assumptions, and may be responsible for making some people believe things that just aren't right.

 

[xTx]

I do not understand how asking someone to intercede for you can be considered a 'snare'.

How are the words 'trap' & 'asking someone to pray for you' connected?

If I asked you to pray for me, am I creating a trap?

Or is the action of my asking someone to pray for me an act to trap observers?

I do not understand the question.

 

[Rhamiel]

Zeek
since you criticized what you view as over stepping the bounds of devotion...

what would you recommend for Catholics as to how far devotion should go?

this is your thread...
it seems unfair to condemn without offering a positive alternative