The snare of devotion to Mary.

[Grafted In]

Double post.

 

[Grafted In]

How can one have a meaningful conversation when the other party repetedly misinterprets and twists one's words so as to make an heretic of them?
You've called me ignorant as though I have no understanding. You accuse me of denying the diety of Christ.
How can anyone carry on dialog with such untruths?

 

[Jaxxi]

Just acknowledge Jesus as the Christ the Son of God and folks wouldnt have to assume so much

Thank you,..good post. However, Jesus is called the Son of God, and also the Son of man. Jesus never once claimed to BE God.Here is my question. Jesus was born unto Mary, a mortal woman. However Adam was created solely by God as the first man. Is He not the Son of God also?

 

[Jaxxi]

Thank you,..good post. However, Jesus is called the Son of. od, and also the Son of man. Jesus never once claimed to BE God.Here is my question. Jesus was born unto Mary, a mortal woman. However Adam was created solely by God as the first man. Is He not the Son of God also?

Jesus and God shared a body making Them One but I believe they can be seperate entities for the most part. Jesus wasnt going into the woods praying to Himself and by saying He had come by way of His father who had sent Him. They are clearly Three in One.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Thank you,..good post. However, Jesus is called the Son of God, and also the Son of man. Jesus never once claimed to BE God.Here is my question. Jesus was born unto Mary, a mortal woman. However Adam was created solely by God as the first man. Is He not the Son of God also?

You have to read Luke 3:38 I have already shared on another thread here that he is both and is the Son of man (being partakers of our flesh and blood) being made of the seed of David according to the flesh. No one is denying the Son of man or the Son of God even as the Son of man is declared the Son of God by an open show by the resurrection from the dead Romans 1:4

Jesus is the first begotten of the dead as it was said to Him "this day" have I begotten thee" according to the same. Just search "Son of man" and Jesus referencing himself as the same which is directly connected to what hour he was born unto, which all pertains to (being made flesh) in order to suffer and die and be raised again, as by the same (the resurrection from the dead) He openly declared the Son of God (again see Romans 1:4) God fulfilling what Acts 13:33 references which is a reference made to the second psalm (Psalm 2:7) showing the same.

The first man is the man of the earth and the last is the man from heaven, he said ye have believed that I have come out from God and was returning unto the same.

When Jesus ascended he said to Mary, I ascend unto my God and your God, because unto us there is one God (even the Father) who made Jesus both Lord and Christ (who put all things under Him, being the head of Christ) and unto us there is one Lord Jesus Christ (the Son of God) brought forth into this world and back again from the dead by whom He created the worlds. The mystery of the fellowship is between the Father and the Son in whom dwelled the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Edit to clarify better

 

[patricius79]

Mary, on the other hand, was not sinless nor did she remain a virgin. She died a physical death like everyone else

The Bible doesn't say the things you are saying here.

Since Jesus is God, the creature, Mary, is the Mother of God. She is Immaculate and Ever-Virgin, holier than all other creatures together, yet infinitely less holy than God.

 

[Grafted In]

Does the Catholic bible have a Mathew 1:20-25 ? If so how does it read?
My King James tells me that Joseph knew her not until after the child was born. I have never seen a Bible version that tells me that Joseph never ever, even once have sex with Mary. Does yours? If so would you mind posting that portion of Scripture from your bible word for word?

 

[patricius79]

Does the Catholic bible have a Mathew 1:20-25 ? If so how does it read?
My King James tells me that Joseph knew her not until after the child was born. I have never seen a Bible version that tells me that Joseph never ever, even once have sex with Mary. Does yours? If so would you mind posting that portion of Scripture from your bible word for word?

Firstly, how do you know which books are in the N.T. Canon, except by the Catholic Church, which says that Mary is the Ever-Virgin Mother of God?

In regard to Matthew 1:25, do you believe that the word "until" always implies a subsequent change in condition?

Romans 8:22: "the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now."

 

[Grafted In]

In regard to Matthew 1:25, do you believe that the word "until" always implies a subsequent change in condition? "

What do you think?

 

[patricius79]

What do you think?

Firstly, how do you know which books are in the N.T. Canon, except by the Catholic Church, which says that Mary is the Ever-Virgin Mother of God?

Secondly, in Romans 8:22, does the word "until" mean that the labor pains of creation have now ceased?

 

[chevyontheriver]

What do you think?

Did Michal the daughter of Saul have children or not? 2 Sam 6:23. The same 'until' is found there.

 

[Jaxxi]

Man of the earth? So Adam had dirt in his veins? If Jesus came to save mankind then what was Adam put here to do?

 

[Fireinfolding]

Man of the earth? So Adam had dirt in his veins? If Jesus came to save mankind then what was Adam put here to do?

1 Cr 15:37 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

 

[patricius79]

I love how 1 Corinthians 15:47 compares Mary's womb to Heaven.

 

[Jaxxi]

1 Cr 15:37 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Thank you. Thats what i needed to hear.

 

[topcare]

This is so simple. I have no idea how Evangelicals screw this up. Mary is the Mother of God because she gave birth to Christ, who is God. She is his mother. The Mother of God title doesn't mean that she is the source of God or the beginning of God. The title doesn't mean that without her there is no God. Only that God came out of her birth canal as an infant and she nursed and raised him. Plain and simple.

It does boggle the mind how they mess up real Christianity and make their own religion and pretend it is Christianity

 

[topcare]

You are a skilled misinterpreter. Nowhere in any way, shape or form have I ever denied that Christ is, in fact, God. Nowhere.
I do not appreciate your accusation. But you do not offend me. What I believe was given to me by God.

You have insinuated that heresy all over your post.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

You are a skilled misinterpreter. Nowhere in any way, shape or form have I ever denied that Christ is, in fact, God. Nowhere.
I do not appreciate your accusation. But you do not offend me. What I believe was given to me by God.

I'm sure Muslims and all the heretics believe God gave them their beliefs too. In fact, I can't imagine there are many religious people of all faiths who don't believe their beliefs were given to them by God or Gods.

 

[bbbbbbb]

What are you talking about? We don't agree that the fathers of the Council of Trent substituted the Apostolic Tradition with traditions of their own.

We completely agree that a group of ungodly men got together in the sixteenth century and overturned Apostolic teaching in order to defend their heretical beliefs. The fact is, however, that we perceive two different camps doing this. It is a pity that so few individuals today are aware of the proceedings of the Council of Trent, would you not agree?

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Protestant denominations hold on to traditions that originated with Luther and Calvin in the 16th century (i.e., justification by faith alone). The Catholic Church, on the other hand, holds on to traditions that originated with Jesus and the Apostles. The holy traditions of the Church , i.e., the hypostatic union of two natures in Christ, original sin, and the Immaculate Conception of Mary, do in a sense evolve as the Church grows in deeper understanding of the divine mysteries under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Nothing changes but the terms we use to express that deeper understanding. The Church always taught that Mary was without sin ("full of grace and most highly favoured"), but what we are to understand by this has taken time to be fully grasped through much pondering. The same can be said for what Jesus, the Son of man, said: "I and the Father are one." Finally, there is a difference between the oral traditions and sacred Tradition. The former is the spoken word by Christ's ministers, while the latter is the unwritten word of God, that which is declared by the Holy Spirit, and belongs to the deposit of faith together with Scripture, the written word of God.

No individual Christian is at liberty to decide for themselves what should belong to the deposit of faith. That is for the Magisterium of the Church to decide. Christ founded a visible and hierarchical church on Peter and the Apostles so that the written and unwritten word of God should be faithfully preserved and transmitted from one generation to the next. The Catholic Church is one in faith because it is ruled and taught by a central teaching authority established by Christ through the guaranty of the Holy Spirit. All practicing Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary. And they rightly understand that these teachings aren't a matter of personal preference. Protestantism has splintered into thousands of independent denominations, each with its own teaching and ruling authority, because it is heterogeneous by nature. It is diverse in practice and in doctrinal content because men have conferred authority upon themselves to teach what they privately judge has been handed down by Jesus and the Twelve according to their interpretations of Scripture. Right from the start, these religious leaders have rejected many holy ancient traditions and substituted them for their own, or they have relegated them to the status of being simply legitimate and worth considering, but not binding on all the faithful. By the way, there weren't any denominations in the 9th century, but only one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, as Christ intended (Mt. 16:16-18).

Thanks for your highly simplistic explanation of the Reformation. Neither Calvin nor Luther originated the Reformation nor were they hardly the only theologians to develop and define Reformed theology.