The shaking

[JonMiller]

Women in the church spend some time making themselves look more attractive. Very few say that this is wrong, yet let them use jewelry or (obvious) makeup, and suddenly it is a big deal. The fact that this is a big deal, but a $100 dress is not, is hypocritical. This is an issue in the church, and one of the reasons why I think the church is in trouble in the US.

Personally I prefer women with little to no jewelry and light makeup (and if she can go without, great!). But I think that the blanket comdemnation of all jewelry is, for most people, an unthinking position.

I also think that we are not all called to be ascetic. I don't really have as many responses in my mind for this one yet though. Although, Jesus was contrasted to John the Baptist, with John the Baptist being the ascetic (And Jesus not being so). Now this explcitly just described in the eating, drinking, and entertainment part of asceticism, but logically it doesn't make sense to divorce adornment from the others.

JM

 

[JonMiller]

JM, do you really take the time to ask people how much their ties or earrings cost? I've never even cared honestly.

Trust me when I say this, anyone that knows me, knows that I am married. I don't need a ring to prove it.

So now I'm promoting sin?

You're incredible.

Any scripture to support that I'm promoting sin because I don't wear a wedding ring?

This is an artifact of the modern world. People in the US (who aren't SDA) see a girl without a wedding ring and assume that she is available. Therefore you are encouraging them to commit adultry in their hearts. Additionally, even if they know you are married, not wearing a ring while being married often shows that a spouse is looking for play on the side (looking to comit adultry). This could cause issues in how they relate towards you and towards eachother.

Once more, an understanding of the Bible, and then an application to the modern culture, comes up with better solution.

JM

 

[TrustAndObey]

Women in the church spend some time making themselves look more attractive. Very few say that this is wrong, yet let them use jewelry or (obvious) makeup, and suddenly it is a big deal. The fact that this is a big deal, but a $100 dress is not, is hypocritical. This is an issue in the church, and one of the reasons why I think the church is in trouble in the US.

If you marry a girl from the Adventist church, which you've mentioned wanting to do in another thread, what are you going to say when she tells you she won't wear a wedding ring?

Will she be promoting sin too?

On the other hand, what if she practically demands the most expensive ring at the jewelry shop?

Personally I prefer women with little to no jewelry and light makeup (and if she can go without, great!). But I think that the blanket comdemnation of all jewelry is, for most people, an unthinking position.

This is exactly why I haven't found my discussion with you very enjoyable. Have I condemned anyone that wears jewelry? I was asked why *I* don't, and if I had scriptural backing for it. I answered accordingly.

I do think it's about pride and status, so I don't wear it. When I'm a knock down drag out neurosurgery assistant making lots of money, I still will not wear jewelry.

I prefer to live modestly (maybe not as modestly as I live NOW), and I have never felt the need to flash wealth.

I also think that we are not all called to be ascetic. I don't really have as many responses in my mind for this one yet though. Although, Jesus was contrasted to John the Baptist, with John the Baptist being the ascetic (And Jesus not being so). Now this explcitly just described in the eating, drinking, and entertainment part of asceticism, but logically it doesn't make sense to divorce adornment from the others.

JM

I'm just waiting on the verse that says I'm promoting sin by not wearing a wedding ring.

 

[JonMiller]

I would want my wife to wear a wedding band, just like I would want her to not go to drunken parties by herself.

I am sorry that this is unpleasent.. I can quit? I want to make my statements though, and I am too shy/etc to make them in my church.

Christ says that it is a sin to lust after a married woman in your heart. Mathew 5:27-28

JM

 

[TrustAndObey]

This is an artifact of the modern world. People in the US (who aren't SDA) see a girl without a wedding ring and assume that she is available. Therefore you are encouraging them to commit adultry in their hearts. Additionally, even if they know you are married, not wearing a ring while being married often shows that a spouse is looking for play on the side (looking to comit adultry). This could cause issues in how they relate towards you and towards eachother.

Once more, an understanding of the Bible, and then an application to the modern culture, comes up with better solution.

JM

JM, if someone sees me and commits adultery in their heart, the last thing they'd be looking at is my HAND.

If they SPEAK to me, even if it's just for a little while (like a classmate), they'll know I'm married.

If they commit adultery in their heart after that....that's between them and God, because they certainly won't be committing the actual act of adultery with me.

The ring doesn't make me married. The heart does.

 

[TrustAndObey]

And your comment begs the question....if I had my wedding ring on, would that somehow ward off someone that lusted after me in their heart?

 

[JonMiller]

JM, if someone sees me and commits adultery in their heart, the last thing they'd be looking at is my HAND.

If they SPEAK to me, even if it's just for a little while (like a classmate), they'll know I'm married.

If they commit adultery in their heart after that....that's between them and God, because they certainly won't be committing the actual act of adultery with me.

The ring doesn't make me married. The heart does.

A lot of decent guys take a look at the hand first thing when they meet a girl. This is because they don't want to be lusting after someone's wife. The reason why it is a sin is beacuse there is some choice there. And do you want to go around, telling people that you fool around on your husband? That is what people who don't get to know you, know you are married, and see that you have no ring on your finger will think.

JM

 

[TrustAndObey]

A lot of decent guys take a look at the hand first thing when they meet a girl. This is because they don't want to be lusting after someone's wife.

If they look at the hand, and don't see a wedding ring, then lust after a girl.....they're not so decent, don't kid yourself. They're lusting after her body if they haven't taken the time to know her mind. The fact that she's wearing a ring may stop them from hitting on her, but it isn't going to stop them from lusting if they're being that superficial to begin with.

The reason why it is a sin is beacuse there is some choice there. And do you want to go around, telling people that you fool around on your husband? That is what people who don't get to know you, know you are married, and see that you have no ring on your finger will think.

JM

If they haven't gotten to know me, then they're lusting after my body. It's as simple as that. Furthermore, if they haven't gotten to know me, how are they going to know I'm married? ESP?

 

[TrustAndObey]

I would want my wife to wear a wedding band, just like I would want her to not go to drunken parties by herself.

I am sorry that this is unpleasent.. I can quit? I want to make my statements though, and I am too shy/etc to make them in my church.

You don't strike me as shy. If you're saying things on here that you wouldn't say to a living soul sitting in front of you....nevermind.

Christ says that it is a sin to lust after a married woman in your heart. Mathew 5:27-28

JM

Hmmm. Did He say it was a sin just to lust after a MARRIED woman?

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

If the man is the one lusting, then HE is committing the sin. That verse sure doesn't say anything about the woman in any detail. Was she married?

Was she not wearing a wedding ring?

 

[TrustAndObey]

I don't place a stumblingblock in front of men by wearing revealing clothing or flirting with them.

Am I causing them to lust, or is their flesh causing them to lust?

Who's committing the sin?

 

[JonMiller]

encouraging, I didn't say causing

is it sin for a man to lust after his wife? context is that Christ was talking about adultry

I really don't understand what you were trying to say in the last part of the post two posts up...

I have tried to bring up issues to people before, it is like talking to a brick wall... and I don't want to cause trouble

I figure that people here are looking for discussion

JM

 

[TrustAndObey]

encouraging, I didn't say causing

Encouraging someone to lust after you would require a little effort, something I certainly don't apply to anyone but my husband.

is it sin for a man to lust after his wife? context is that Christ was talking about adultry

No, a man should want his wife sexually. The MAN is married in that text, if anyone, JM.

I really don't understand what you were trying to say in the last part of the post two posts up...

I have tried to bring up issues to people before, it is like talking to a brick wall... and I don't want to cause trouble

I figure that people here are looking for discussion

JM

Oh people are definitely looking for discussion on this forum. Asking me very personal questions goes a little above and beyond discussion. You want to condemn me and judge me for not wearing jewelry.

If I were sitting in front of you, and you saw that I sincerely do not feel it is the right thing for me, and that I feel it promotes wealth and status, would you say the other things you've said to me?

Would you really tell me that me not wearing a ring is promoting sin?

My husband doesn't wear a ring either. Not once have I worried about him cheating on me. In fact, if my husband went to a drunken party like the one you mentioned before, HA! I know he'd be testifying about Jesus Christ.

Give your future wife some credit.

 

[TrustAndObey]

I have tried to bring up issues to people before, it is like talking to a brick wall... and I don't want to cause trouble

I figure that people here are looking for discussion

JM

JM, let me ask you a personal question this time, okay?

When someone doesn't agree with you, do you take it personally? Do you consider someone that you haven't managed to sway to your viewpoint as unreasonable?

The reason I'm asking is because I have felt a personal conviction from GOD not to wear jewelry. Now, that's the truth. You can't see me and you don't know me, but I am telling you the truth.

Since I've expressed that, you've resorted to personal attacks on my character and on my "status" (or lack thereof as the case actually turned out to be).

Did you do that to the people you tried to talk to?

And why is okay to "cause trouble" with me, when you won't do it in "real" life?

Don't get me wrong, I would much rather you express your concerns here than to just walk out of the church.

I also think it's good for you to get an Adventist woman's perspective since you're actively seeking out an Adventist woman.

But respect my opinions please.

They aren't always going to be like yours, but that doesn't mean that I'm unreasonable or a brick wall or that I don't want to hear what you have to say. Seriously, if this really bothers you then you do need to talk about it...but don't just disregard the answers you receive.

I gave scriptural support for what I believe in. In exchange you gave your opinion (about me promoting sin) without scriptural support. That's not a discussion JM.

If you want to continue, I just ask that you respect my opinion and listen to what I say too.

 

[JonMiller]

It is others I am considering,, not my future wife. (and a lot of date rape type stuff happens at drunken parties)

You are promoting the other people around you to sin, not by action but by thought.

The very personal questions were trying to make you think about adornment with jewelry vs adornment in other aspects of your life. Apparently you are pretty honest there, but a lot of adventists have lots of adornment in other aspects of their lives, but consider jewelry to be sin. If it isn't applicable to you, it is applicable to a majority of adventists I know, and I would guess would be applicable to others in your church. You did admit though that if you had more money you might be less modest...

JM

 

[TrustAndObey]

It is others I am considering,, not my future wife. (and a lot of date rape type stuff happens at drunken parties)

There's an obvious solution there JM. Don't go to drunken parties.

You are promoting the other people around you to sin, not by action but by thought.

I absolutely, 100% disagree. I am not putting thoughts of lust in their heads by not wearing a ring. I don't dress sexy and I don't talk sexy.

The very personal questions were trying to make you think about adornment with jewelry vs adornment in other aspects of your life. Apparently you are pretty honest there, but a lot of adventists have lots of adornment in other aspects of their lives, but consider jewelry to be sin. If it isn't applicable to you, it is applicable to a majority of adventists I know, and I would guess would be applicable to others in your church. You did admit though that if you had more money you might be less modest...

JM

Yeah, I'd have dental insurance and a more reliable car. That doesn't mean I'd rush out and buy jewelry or start dressing in a sexual way. When I said "less modest" I totally meant "less poor". I'd use that money to make sure I wasn't stranded on the side of the road (which has happened quite a few times with this car).

I still wouldn't be extravagant.

I've lived like that before, and it seemed great at the time, but it really wasn't. God took away the material things in my life for a reason.

He doesn't have to do it again for me to "get it". I heard Him loud and clear the first time.

 

[JonMiller]

When did I personally attack you? I do admit saying that you were similar to most people I see in the church. And I apologised for that, apparently you are more honest there. But that doesn't change the state of most of the church, and most of the church is anti-jewelry.

Second, when people don't listen to me, I don't see the point in continuing to talk. This was true in highschool about the existence of God. This was true a few years about the existence of God. And this was true last year when sabbathschool leader's in suits went on against jewelry.

Because forums have less reality then RL, it affects the people involved less. Or at least it should.. who am I but some faceless words on a screen? But if I am a person in church, and it would cause conflict if pursued, then I will be quiet at times. I am bolder when not in church.

How was there any lacking in scriptual support of my statement about the wedding band? Do you deny that lusting after a married woman is a sin?

JM

 

[JonMiller]

not wearing a wedding ring is provactive dress to some decent guys

we both agree that nondecent guys will sin anways

JM
(decent guys don't go after married women)

 

[JonMiller]

I already apologised for thinking you were like most members. Do I need to do so again? Fine, I apologise for thinking that you had nice clothes and/or a nice house and/or a nice car while saying that wearing jewelry was sinful.

But isn't it so much better that I posted? Because now I think differently.

I need to start editing my posts more, this is getting spammy.

JM

 

[TrustAndObey]

When did I personally attack you? I do admit that you were similar to most people I see in the church. And I apologised for that, apparently you are more honest there. But that doesn't change the state of most of the church, and most of the church is anti-jewelry.

You told me to THINK when I read scripture. You automatically assumed that I don't think when I read scripture.

Second, when people don't listen to me, I don't see the point in continuing to talk. This was true in highschool about the existence of God. This was true a few years about the existence of God. And this was true last year when sabbathschool leader's in suits went on against jewelry.

There's a difference between not listening, and not agreeing.

I've read every word you've written in this thread. I don't agree with you though.

Because forums have less reality then RL, it affects the people involved less. Or at least it should.. who am I but some faceless words on a screen? But if I am a person in church, and it would cause conflict if pursued, then I will be quiet at times. I am bolder when not in church.

People typing on a computer are still human beings though. I don't consider your statements just some faceless words on a screen. Seriously, I don't.

How was there any lacking in scriptual support of my statement about the wedding band? Do you deny that lusting after a married woman is a sin?

JM

I don't deny that lusting after a married woman is a sin. The ring isn't going to change that though.

And the MAN was married in the verse you quoted, not "a" woman. It didn't say a thing about the woman being married or not wearing a wedding ring.

JM, I have to go read a chapter in my Micro book and then I have to get to bed. I have class every day (starting at 8 a.m.).

Even with the slam, I am glad to have met you.

I don't post during the week.

God bless,
~Lainie

 

[JonMiller]

The think was a comment based on the earlier false assumptions. I still will have that statement made though, because you seem to think that we are being asked to live an ascetic life, but there are plenty of examples in the Bible where God blessed people so that they didn't. I know, I don't have those handy, I can try and come up with them for next week.

So if I am not married but have sex with a married woman I am not commiting adultry?

Anyways, peace and good luck with your studies.

JM