The shaking

[JonMiller]

I see lots of people with very fancy clothes at church. In fact, people who come in teeshirt and jeans are talked about. Even someone like me who wears a button shirt and kakis is low dressed. But let someone come with 5$ earings and suddenly it is a big deal.

These verses are about adorning ourselves extravagantly. Not not looking nice (in fact, we are told to look nice). In the old times, braiding the hair took ages and generally was a sign that one had lots of money (because you had to spend it to get your hair braided like that). Same with jewelry, until the (tacky) recent jewelry, jewelry was expensive stuff, and often the jewelry would be a large part of the families wealth. This extravagance kept money from more useful things for the family, and was also a source of jealousy and other such things.

The jewelry that is common now costs 5$ at target, it isn't the same thing.

This is an example of not thinking about why the Bible says something. Many of adventists doctrines are based upon thinking about what the Bible is really saying (That is why we don't beleive in going straight to heaven/hell or that the Sabbath is on Sunday), but in other places we are strangely thoughtless.

Well, I should say we were strangely thoughtless. Now some of us are beggining to think, but maybe it will be too late to save the church in NA.

The jewelry thing is an example of the rampant hypocrisy that is present in the SDA church.

JM

 

[JonMiller]

Do you ever wear anything nicer than the cheapest of garments? Do you ever decide what you are going to wear based upon how it looks?

Think when you read the Bible. Many of the most regretful errors have arisen from people not doing so.

JM

 

[maco]

Typical of the SDA church? Aren't you a member?

That's kind of like me saying "That's typical of women" when I AM one.



Also? Is that what the verse said?

The verse specifically talks about adorning oneself. Symbolically the bible talks about adorning ourselves with knowledge instead of jewelry.



Considering he's already a man, I don't think it's a good example really.



Also? There's that word again. Is that really what the verse said? Wouldn't the word "instead" work better there?



I'm waiting for my crown Maco. It's all the adornment I need, that and knowledge. I don't deserve riches, I haven't received my reward yet.

I just sent you a study on jewelry via email.

 

[JonMiller]

TrustAndObey, this is the sort of stuff that makes people feel unwelcome at church. Then they stop coming.

Are you so sure that you are right here, and we are wrong, that you are willing to drive people from the church?

JM

 

[TrustAndObey]

Luke 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

It's all about status and adornment.

 

[JonMiller]

Luke 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

It's all about status and adornment.

Please answer my question about ever choosing clothes based upon how they look or buying more than the cheapest clothing.

What do you wear to church?

Do you cut your hair at home?

Do you do any dental care beyond that necessary for health?

Do you wear contacts?

Do you own the cheapest house?

Do you own the cheapest car?

JM
(replace you with your family when appropriate)

 

[TrustAndObey]

TrustAndObey, this is the sort of stuff that makes people feel unwelcome at church. Then they stop coming.

Are you so sure that you are right here, and we are wrong, that you are willing to drive people from the church?

JM

Me not wearing jewelry is going to drive people from the church?

I was asked if I had scriptural backing for what *I* believe in. I gave that scripture.

And for the record (it's sad I have to say this so often), I felt this way BEFORE I joined the Adventist church.

Think when you read the Bible. Many of the most regretful errors have arisen from people not doing so.

Well, that was rude. I do think when I read the bible, but thanks for that slam, I guess.

Well, I should say we were strangely thoughtless. Now some of us are beggining to think, but maybe it will be too late to save the church in NA.

Yeah, you smart ones are going to go to heaven a lot faster I'm sure.

Can we stop with the demeaning attitude and consider the fact that I answered a question Annie asked about if I would've come to these conclusions from JUST the bible.

I did. I came to these conclusions from JUST the bible. If I'm wrong, I really don't think me NOT wearing jewelry is going to run people out of the church or disappoint God.

 

[JonMiller]

Why do you think that jewelry was preached against?

If it was against all adornment, what is adornment.. what purpose does it serve?

Could you then answer the other questions I posted?

JM

 

[TrustAndObey]

Please answer my question about ever choosing clothes based upon how they look or buying more than the cheapest clothing.

What do you wear to church?

Do you cut your hair at home?

Do you do any dental care beyond that necessary for health?

Do you wear contacts?

Do you own the cheapest house?

Do you own the cheapest car?

JM
(replace you with your family when appropriate)

Wow, you really want me to answer these? Fine.

I wear a skirt and a nice shirt to church.

I do cut my hair at home, and have done so pretty much all of my life. I also cut my boys' hair.

I don't have any dental insurance, so I only go to the dentist if I have an emergency. I had to find one that lets me pay it out on credit. No credit cards.

I wear glasses.

I don't own a home.

I don't own a car. I drive my mom's 1995 Mercury Tracer with a rusty gas tank that groans going down the road. I can't put more than $15 in it, or gas spills out of it.

I'm also already $6,000 in debt in student loans.

Happy now?

When I become a nurse, I'll have more reliable things like a good car and dental insurance, but I still won't wear jewelry. I don't need it.

 

[maco]

Luke 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

It's all about status and adornment.

Don't let your beauty only be known by what you wear or how you style your hair but let your inward beauty acompany the outward. What good is it to look beautiful outwardly and be ugly inwardly. All God is saying is that He is more concerned about the heart and not the outward. This is not saying wearing a ring or a pearl nacklace is sinful.

Is it sinful for a woman to wear a $20.00 necklace? How about a man wearing a $25.00 tie? Both the tie and the necklace have only one purpose and that is to make the wearer look nice.

Motive and manner is what God is concerned with, in other words, why and how you do something.

Did you know that you can be just as pridefull about not wearing jewelry as someone who is wearing jewelry? It's not the jewelry it's why and how of the heart.

Braided hair is not gold or costly pearls yet it's in the same category. How about if you part your hair in the middle, is that okay?

It's not about the outward, it's about the inward. The outward can be made beautiful with these things as long as the inward is beautiful and right with God.

 

[JonMiller]

I assume you got the clothes at the goodwill?

OK, you might be pretty low on many of the usual places of adornment. But look at the church, how many of the people there would answer similarly for those questions? And yet people who think similarly to you are made to feel uncomfortable at church when wearing jewelry while those with nice cars, nice houses, and nice clothes are not made to feel so.

Additionally, how do you compare this view of an ascetic life with the verses in the Bible about blessings we who serve God will receive in this[\b] life. Houses and clothes and land (which I Didn't include in my list, but is another common place) are all examples of blessings. Would God bless us with what is bad for us? Admittely, a lot of the verses about blessings in this life are in the OT, but I don't think that they are outdated.

(I owe on order of magnitude more than you on student loans )

JM
(One of the main reasons why my brother and his wife no longer go is because she is made uncomfortable due to her choice to wear jewelry)

 

[TrustAndObey]

It's not about the outward, it's about the inward. The outward can be made beautiful with these things as long as the inward is beautiful and right with God.

I disagree, the outward can be made beautiful even if the inside is terribly wicked.

 

[maco]

I disagree, the outward can be made beautiful even if the inside is terribly wicked.

That's what I said.

The outward can be made beautiful while the inward is ugly. This is why God says don't let that happen. Just because you have pearls and braided hair does not make you beautiful inwardly. This is why God says make sure these things acompany the inward beauty.

Did you get my study I sent you?

 

[TrustAndObey]

I assume you got the clothes at the goodwill?

If you must know, I did get a lot of my clothes at the Goodwill.

In fact, my best friend in Colorado and I used to go on Mondays, because everything with a yellow tag cost 99 CENTS.

I didn't buy things that were falling apart. I bought some really nice clothes with the tags still on them.

In your opinion, does that make me MORE or LESS of a Christian? You're judging me, so you might as well go the distance here.

OK, you might be pretty low on many of the usual places of adornment. But look at the church, how many of the people there would answer similarly for those questions? And yet people who think similarly to you are made to feel uncomfortable at church when wearing jewelry while those with nice cars, nice houses, and nice clothes are not made to feel so.

It isn't my place to ask them. Nor is it my place to judge them if they have nice things or DON'T have nice things.

Additionally, how do you compare this view of an ascetic life with the verses in the Bible about blessings we who serve God will receive in this[\b] life. Houses and clothes and land (which I Didn't include in my list, but is another common place) are all examples of blessings. Would God bless us with what is bad for us? Admittely, a lot of the verses about blessings in this life are in the OT, but I don't think that they are outdated.

(I owe on order of magnitude more than you on student loans )

JM
(One of the main reasons why my brother and his wife no longer go is because she is made uncomfortable due to her choice to wear jewelry)

I'm sorry your brother's wife was made to feel guilty over it. There are people in my church that wear a wedding ring. I have a gorgeous ring in a drawer, but I don't really feel the need to wear it anymore.

I had a beautiful home in Colorado and a decent car that was paid for. Through a tragedy, I lost both. I lost a lot more than that actually.

I lost every material thing I own (which was worth any value), but I gained God in the process.

And you know what? That's what it TOOK for God to get my attention. I didn't like it, but I listened.

A good friend of mine (not Adventist) lost her home in a tornado last summer. The tornado went right through the middle of it. She was pregnant, and had two other children with her and her husband hiding in the utility room. The room right next to the utility room was wiped out, but the utility room remained standing.

When they rebuilt, they built a more modest home. If you ask my friend today why that happened, she'll say the same thing. That's what it took for God to get her attention.

 

[TrustAndObey]

That's what I said.

No, you said that "The outward can be made beautiful with these things as long as the inward is beautiful and right with God."

The outward can be made beautiful while the inward is ugly. This is why God says don't let that happen. Just because you have pearls and braided hair does not make you beautiful inwardly. This is why God says make sure these things acompany the inward beauty.

Did you get my study I sent you?

You're seeing a lot in that verse that I just don't see.

It doesn't say anything about accompanying inward beauty.

No, I haven't gotten your e-mail yet.

 

[JonMiller]

If you must know, I did get a lot of my clothes at the Goodwill.

In fact, my best friend in Colorado and I used to go on Mondays, because everything with a yellow tag cost 99 CENTS.

I didn't buy things that were falling apart. I bought some really nice clothes with the tags still on them.

In your opinion, does that make me MORE or LESS of a Christian? You're judging me, so you might as well go the distance here.

It makes you less of a hypocrite. It does nothing to aid the majority of people in the SDA church (in the US) though.

God does sometimes need to grab our attention. And material adornment is a big issue for a lot of people. But 5$ earings are no different than a 5$ tie... and a lot of the men in the churchs I have been to have ties which cost more than that.

Personally I think that not wearing a wedding ring is promoting sin and dissension if you are involved with nonadventists much at all.

JM

 

[TrustAndObey]

Maco, I got your e-mail. It was in my junk folder (I think maybe because you're not on my friend's list or something).

Sounds like something straight from the mouth of Keith Hunt.

I cracked up a little when I read this part "On the other hand, God does not require a drab and dull appearance. Why shouldn't a woman try to look nice? If the motive of her heart is right, her efforts are not wrong."

The most beautiful woman I know (prettier than any movie star I've ever seen) doesn't wear makeup or jewelry. That seemed a little silly to say you have to have either to look nice.

Amen?

 

[JonMiller]

I personally don't think that God has asked us all to be ascetics. If you think differently though, and practice it, then I guess that isup to you.

JM

 

[TrustAndObey]

It makes you less of a hypocrite. It does nothing to aid the majority of people in the SDA church (in the US) though.

God does sometimes need to grab our attention. And material adornment is a big issue for a lot of people. But 5$ earings are no different than a 5$ tie... and a lot of the men in the churchs I have been to have ties which cost more than that.

Personally I think that not wearing a wedding ring is promoting sin and desension if you are involved with nonadventists much at all.

JM

JM, do you really take the time to ask people how much their ties or earrings cost? I've never even cared honestly.

Trust me when I say this, anyone that knows me, knows that I am married. I don't need a ring to prove it.

So now I'm promoting sin?

You're incredible.

Any scripture to support that I'm promoting sin because I don't wear a wedding ring?

 

[TrustAndObey]

I personally don't think that God has asked us all to be ascetics. If you think differently though, and practice it, then I guess that isup to you.

JM

-EDIT-

I didn't realize I had to ask you, but thanks.

I have scriptural support for why *I* don't feel the need to wear jewelry. If that's not enough for you, I'm sorry. I'm not the one that likes to judge others. Who has the time for that anyway? And why would I want to take Jesus' job away from Him?

No more flaming please.