The shaking

[maco]

There is a belief that in the last days there will be a shaking within the SDA church. Some say it's God weeding out all those who are not truely Advestist. Did you ever think that maybe the shaking is God finally bringing people out of heavy bondage and legalism to the freedom which is in Christ.

Romans 10:1-3 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Have we come to a point where we are manufacturing our own rightousness with all the extra rules?

Thou shall not visit a movie theater.

Thou shall not wear jewelry.

Thou shall not drink fermented wine.

Thou shall not listen to jazz music.

Thou shall not eat white sugar.

Thou shall not drink coffee.

This is begining to sound like a pharisaical religious system of adding to the righteousness of Christ. These things are unbiblical weights of burden. I agree that it is good to eat healthy but we can get carried away and begin to strain at gnats.

1 Corinthians 6:13 Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.

People are begining to realize the heavy burdens of don't eat, don't touch and don't look. This is the Spirit's job, not man's.

1 John 3:19-21 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God.

 

[Mankin]

Amen! All this legalism is not biblical and coresponds with a church that Adventists try to be the opposite of.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Maco, I'm just curious why smoking isn't on your list.

Our church doesn't condone it, for the obvious reasons, but I'm curious if you do. Do you think it's legalistic not to smoke?

Also, is it legalistic not to do drugs?

 

[OntheDL]

How much can you get away with without getting caught? That's legalistic!

It's all or nothing. You want to receive the pardon or justification but without wanting to be sanctified. That's like you want to marry a woman but you are not willing cut ties with your ex-girlfriends.

Freedom is not free without responsibilities (duties)!

Your definition of freedom is godlessness. Give me what I want but don't tell me what to do. Is that true christianity?

 

[TrustAndObey]

How much can you get away with without getting caught? That's legalistic!

It's all or nothing. You want to receive the pardon or justification but without wanting to be sanctified. That's like you want to marry a woman but you are not willing cut ties with your ex-girlfriends.

Freedom is not free without responsibilities (duties)!

Your definition of freedom is godlessness. Give me what I want but don't tell me what to do. Is that true christianity?

I agree. Wanting your cake while eating it too is legalistic. It's also when you do something yourself and then condemn the other guy for doing the same thing.

I just find it odd that everything on Maco's list is self-serving. Does wearing jewelry glorify God in any way? Does having a gold cross around your neck somehow MAKE you a Christian or ward off evil? (That was rhetorical).

Does drinking coffee glorify God in any way, or does it just cause polyps in your colon? (Rhetorical again).

It takes a very short time to become addicted to caffeine, and it causes one hummer of a headache when you quit drinking/eating it.

All of those things are things that don't glorify God, so to me it's really a non-issue honestly.

 

[TrustAndObey]

I don't wear a wedding ring anymore. Am I still married? You betcha.

 

[maco]

Maco, I'm just curious why smoking isn't on your list.

Our church doesn't condone it, for the obvious reasons, but I'm curious if you do. Do you think it's legalistic not to smoke?

Also, is it legalistic not to do drugs?

Oh yah smoking, I must have forgotten...

If you want to know, I don't smoke nor do I drink alcohol.

Smoking is between God and the one smoking. We can say its not good to smoke and that it can shorten life but I know people who have smoked for years and are at a ripe old age with no health problems due to smoking. So that argument doesn't work for them. Smoking is a sin if the person believes it's a sin or if its causing health problems.

 

[maco]

How much can you get away with without getting caught? That's legalistic!

It's all or nothing. You want to receive the pardon or justification but without wanting to be sanctified. That's like you want to marry a woman but you are not willing cut ties with your ex-girlfriends.

Freedom is not free without responsibilities (duties)!

Your definition of freedom is godlessness. Give me what I want but don't tell me what to do. Is that true christianity?

Now who in the world told you that the definition of legalism is how mush you can get away with without getting caught?

Legalism refers to a rigid adherence to self-imposed and prescribed beliefs and rules that are not concretely established in God’s Word, which result in hard and fast judgments and actions regarding any person or organization that does not comply with such beliefs and rules.

The sins that God sanctifies us from is not the sin of white sugar or a glass of wine or a nacklace or coffee and yes I'm going to say it, not the theater. The things that God is sanctifying us from is found in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

To add coffee, cream and sugar to this list is legalism.

If one chooses to drink coffee, smoke a ciggarette or two, have a glass of wine, wear a ring, listen to jazz, go to a movie, have a candy bar they surely won't be kicked out of the kingdom of God unless of course an Adventist is at the pearly gates.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Oh yah smoking, I must have forgotten...

If you want to know, I don't smoke nor do I drink alcohol.

Smoking is between God and the one smoking. We can say its not good to smoke and that it can shorten life but I know people who have smoked for years and are at a ripe old age with no health problems due to smoking. So that argument doesn't work for them. Smoking is a sin if the person believes it's a sin or if its causing health problems.

So it's only a sin if it causes health problems?

Health problems related to smoking don't happen right away, but I'm sure you know that already. What if you've smoked for 98 years, but lung cancer causes your death? Was it a sin the whole time, or just once you found out that it caused cancer?

My friend oldsage would tell you that there's scriptural support for smoking, and that the bible even gives the name of the approved brand (jokingly of course).

Genesis 24:64 And Rebekah lifted up her eyes, and when she saw Isaac, she lighted off the camel.

 

[TrustAndObey]

You didn't answer my question about drugs.

Is it okay to shoot up heroine occasionally as long as you're not addicted?

 

[OntheDL]

Now who in the world told you that the definition of legalism is how mush you can get away with without getting caught?

Legalism refers to a rigid adherence to self-imposed and prescribed beliefs and rules that are not concretely established in God’s Word, which result in hard and fast judgments and actions regarding any person or organization that does not comply with such beliefs and rules.

Of course it's legalism. You are trying to find loop holes in what's clearly defined by the scriptures and what's not so clear.

The sins that God sanctifies us from is not the sin of white sugar or a glass of wine or a nacklace or coffee and yes I'm going to say it, not the theater. The things that God is sanctifying us from is found in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

To add coffee, cream and sugar to this list is legalism.

If one chooses to drink coffee, smoke a ciggarette or two, have a glass of wine, wear a ring, listen to jazz, go to a movie, have a candy bar they surely won't be kicked out of the kingdom of God unless of course an Adventist is at the pearly gates.

Mankind fell into sin partially because of appetite and intemperance.

The bible says whatever you eat and drink, do it for the glory of God.

When you open your mouth, if it smells like ciggarette or alcohol and you are decked out with gold and jewlry, you think you can talk about God and witness to someone about His character?

 

[maco]

You didn't answer my question about drugs.

Is it okay to shoot up heroine occasionally as long as you're not addicted?

I did answer you.

 

[maco]

So it's only a sin if it causes health problems?

Health problems related to smoking don't happen right away, but I'm sure you know that already. What if you've smoked for 98 years, but lung cancer causes your death? Was it a sin the whole time, or just once you found out that it caused cancer?

My friend oldsage would tell you that there's scriptural support for smoking, and that the bible even gives the name of the approved brand (jokingly of course).

Genesis 24:64 And Rebekah lifted up her eyes, and when she saw Isaac, she lighted off the camel.

Do you think you must have been sinning because after living many years you find that you have blocked arteries as a result of eating clean meats?

I think its sinfull if someone smokes three packs of ciggarette a day in the same way I believe someone who drinks to get drunk is sinfull.

A few ciggarettes a day or a couple of glasses of wine is not sin. As I stated before, I don't smoke nor do I drink but just because I don't do it I wouldn't call it sin if someone else is doing it. If it's not done excessively or abusively then they need seek God to see if He wants them to stop as a personal choice.

 

[maco]

Of course it's legalism. You are trying to find loop holes in what's clearly defined by the scriptures and what's not so clear.

Mankind fell into sin partially because of appetite and intemperance.

The bible says whatever you eat and drink, do it for the glory of God.

When you open your mouth, if it smells like ciggarette or alcohol and you are decked out with gold and jewlry, you think you can talk about God and witness to someone about His character?

Mankind fell into sin partially because of appetite and intemperance.

James 1:14-15 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Now lets read the context of "Whatever you eat and drink, do it for the glory of God."

I will quote from the Simple English Version because it makes it simple.

1 Corinthians 10:27-33 If an unbeliever invites you and you want to go, eat whatever he puts in front of you. Don't ask any questions because of conscience. But if anyone says this to you: ``This was offered to an idol!'' Don't eat it--because of the one who said this and because of conscience. By ``conscience'' I mean not yours, but his! But why is my freedom being judged by the conscience of someone else? If I am thankful for what I have, why can someone say evil things about something for which I am thankful to God? If you are eating, drinking, or doing anything, do everything to give glory to God. Don't cause anyone to sin--Jews, non-Jews, or anyone in the community of God. I try to please everyone in every way. I'm not looking for what is best for me, but what is best for most people, so that they will be saved.

How we give glory to God in the above verses is by not letting our freedom to eat meat or drink fermented wine be a stumbling block to the conscience of a weaker person. This is not saying drinking wine is sinfull nor is it saying eating meat is sinfull.

I totally agree with not eating or drinking to offend anyone. For in this we give glory to God.

Do you see where the problem is? If we teach people that drinking fermented wine is a sin then all we're doing is making weaker brothers and sisters.

When you open your mouth, if it smells like ciggarette or alcohol and you are decked out with gold and jewlry, you think you can talk about God and witness to someone about His character?

What if I wore nice shinny shoes and had my hair combed just right could I?

What if I wore camel hair and ate locus could I?

What if I was poor and had ripped clothes and was dirty could I?

Is it the messege or the messenger?

I agree one should not be drunk and witness, I would even go as far as saying alcohol and ciggarette on the breath is not the best due to the thoughts of the other. But this still does not mean these things are sinfull in themselves.

I had to rebuke a friend who witnessed to my brother and right after that he lit up a joint. My brother made note of that to me the next time he saw me.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Do you think you must have been sinning because after living many years you find that you have blocked arteries as a result of eating clean meats?

I never said eating clean meats is a sin.

What about the biblically unclean meats? Do you agree that the church shouldn't put their stamp of approval on those? If so, we're about the only church I know of that doesn't condone eating them...but what if someone that loves pork chops want to join the Adventist church?

Should we change the rules to suit them, or do you think it's better that we're clear up front that it isn't something we agree with?

Blocked arteries are the result of overindulgence and poor meal choices. Too much salt can cause blocked arteries. It doesn't even have to be meat.

I think its sinfull if someone smokes three packs of ciggarette a day in the same way I believe someone who drinks to get drunk is sinfull.

A few ciggarettes a day or a couple of glasses of wine is not sin. As I stated before, I don't smoke nor do I drink but just because I don't do it I wouldn't call it sin if someone else is doing it. If it's not done excessively or abusively then they need seek God to see if He wants them to stop as a personal choice.

All the things on your list are worldly. What I mean is that none of them are necessary for life.

If you crave something (like I occasionally do with bacon), it's because you've let it into your life at some point and you MISS it, not because you never had it and suddenly can't live without it. A craving is a sign of addiction, and it can happen over just about anything.

In my A&P class the doctor was telling us that certain genes predispose us to certain addictions. Did you know that "just one drink" or "just one drag" is all it takes for some people to be totally addicted from that point forward?

I think that's more along the lines of who the bible was referring to, when we're told not to place a stumblingblock in front of them.

If you saw a pastor drinking wine, you'd think it was absolutely okay to do. But what if you had the gene for addiction?

 

[TrustAndObey]

http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?type=article&article_id=218392744

That's just one source. There's several.

 

[maco]

TrustAndObey

I never said eating clean meats is a sin.

I didn't say you did but God places meat in the same category as wine.

Romans 14:21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.

What about the biblically unclean meats? Do you agree that the church shouldn't put their stamp of approval on those? If so, we're about the only church I know of that doesn't condone eating them...but what if someone that loves pork chops want to join the Adventist church?

If God calls something a sin or unclean then it's sin and unclean.

Should we change the rules to suit them, or do you think it's better that we're clear up front that it isn't something we agree with?

If our rules come from the Bible then we can't change them.

Blocked arteries are the result of overindulgence and poor meal choices. Too much salt can cause blocked arteries. It doesn't even have to be meat.

Drunkenness is a result of overindulgence.

All the things on your list are worldly. What I mean is that none of them are necessary for life.

Do you only partake of things necessary for life?

If you crave something (like I occasionally do with bacon), it's because you've let it into your life at some point and you MISS it, not because you never had it and suddenly can't live without it. A craving is a sign of addiction, and it can happen over just about anything.

I remember when my wife was pregnant she craved jelly donuts from Dunkin Donuts and it had to be Dunkin Donuts don't ask me why. I remember going out in the middle of the night once to get them. Just because you have a craving doesn't necessarily mean it's sinful or addiction. My wife never ate jelly donuts prior to being pregnant nor does she eat them now. Pregnancy is a strange thing...

In my A&P class the doctor was telling us that certain genes predispose us to certain addictions. Did you know that "just one drink" or "just one drag" is all it takes for some people to be totally addicted from that point forward?

I agree there are some people who are prone to addiction this is why wine is not good for everyone.

I think that's more along the lines of who the bible was referring to, when we're told not to place a stumblingblock in front of them.

Amen...

If you saw a pastor drinking wine, you'd think it was absolutely okay to do. But what if you had the gene for addiction?

This is why it's better to partake of these things in the company of people you know.

 

[TrustAndObey]

I remember when my wife was pregnant she craved jelly donuts from Dunkin Donuts and it had to be Dunkin Donuts don't ask me why. I remember going out in the middle of the night once to get them. Just because you have a craving doesn't necessarily mean it's sinful or addiction. My wife never ate jelly donuts prior to being pregnant nor does she eat them now. Pregnancy is a strange thing...

That's a whole different story. There are physiological reasons why pregnant women crave weird food items, but I doubt if you have an example of a pregnant woman craving alcohol if she'd never had it before her pregnancy. Nor would you have any stories of a pregnant woman craving a cigarette when she'd never smoked before.

We studied a case where a pregnant woman craved DIRT because she was actually needing iron. In her mind, dirt would be delicious. Can you imagine?

I agree there are some people who are prone to addiction this is why wine is not good for everyone.

But there is absolutely no way for us to tell, without some serious testing, who those people are. It just takes one drink for them, seriously, and they're hooked.

This is why it's better to partake of these things in the company of people you know.

I know several people very well. I still couldn't tell you whether or not they had the addiction gene for alcohol. One friend might have the addiction gene for alcohol and another one might have the gene for nicotine addiction.

There is no way for us to know who we're putting a stumblingblock in front of.

Why chance it?

 

[maco]

Delete...wrong thread.

 

[TrustAndObey]

As to your question about if I only do things that are necessary for life.

No. I do things that are necessary for a HAPPY life, but none of them include the things on your list.