The seventh seal opened and Revelation unfolds

[Douggg]

The seventh seal opened at the start of Revelation 8, it begins unfolding the events of Revelation. Which spans the 7 years, during which seal 1, seal 2, seal 3, seal 4, seal 5, seal 6 events take place.

 

[Saucy]

Do you believe we are in the midst of these seals now? We appear to be heading into a time of food shortages and rampant inflation right now. But I don't know of any king being anointed in Israel or war breaking out just yet (I'm thinking this would be more like a world war and not just the Ukraine-Russia conflict).

 

[tranquil]

So the 7th Seal starts at the 1st Seal. And the 7th Seal is before the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th Seal.

This is really off the rails.

The seals have been going on for 2000 years. False christs, wars, famines, and martyrdom.

Did the end times start whenever someone got martyred? No.

 

[Douggg]

Do you believe we are in the midst of these seals now?

no. I think we are in the prelude to the Gog/Magog event, i.e Russia and muslim allies attack on Israel.

After which, the seals begin to be fulfilled.

. But I don't know of any king being anointed in Israel or war breaking out just yet (I'm thinking this would be more like a world war and not just the Ukraine-Russia conflict).

We don't know for certain who that person will be. I am thinking Zelenski. I could be wrong.

 

[Douggg]

So the 7th Seal starts at the 1st Seal. And the 7th Seal is before the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th Seal.

This is really off the rails.

The opening of the seventh seal in Revelation 8 - begins the unfolding of Revelation, which is in the remaining chapters of Revelation. I edited my chart in my opening post to clarify.

The seventh seal doesn't start at the first seal, but the chapters that seventh seal kicks off do contain the start of the seven years. Revelation 11:3 and Revelation 12:6.

The seals have been going on for 2000 years. False christs, wars, famines, and martyrdom.

Did the end times start whenever someone got martyred? No.

None of the seal events have begun yet. The seven seals are about the time of the end.

Jesus said all those things that you listed would happen - but the end is not yet.

 

[Saucy]

no. I think we are in the prelude to the Gog/Magog event, i.e Russia and muslim allies attack on Israel.

After which, the seals begin to be fulfilled.



We don't know for certain who that person will be. I am thinking Zelenski. I could be wrong.

Wow I was totally thinking Zelenski before! The entire world looks to him as a hero right now. If he wins against Russia, the world will embrace him to solve their problems. But Russia being destroyed via the Gog/Magog event could very well leave the door open for Zelinski to rise to power and come in to sign a peace treaty with Israel.

 

[Douggg]

Wow I was totally thinking Zelenski before! The entire world looks to him as a hero right now. If he wins against Russia, the world will embrace him to solve their problems. But Russia being destroyed via the Gog/Magog event could very well leave the door open for Zelinski to rise to power and come in to sign a peace treaty with Israel.

Zelenski is a Jew. And to be anointed the King of Israel, the Jews for awhile thinking he is their messiah, the person has to be a Jew.

In Daniel 9:27, the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years, has long been thought to be a peace treaty. But many Christians are not aware that Moses back in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 required that all future leaders in essence confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant by having the law read to the nation on a 7 year interval.

 

[Leaviathan]

Do you believe we are in the midst of these seals now? We appear to be heading into a time of food shortages and rampant inflation right now. But I don't know of any king being anointed in Israel or war breaking out just yet (I'm thinking this would be more like a world war and not just the Ukraine-Russia conflict).

There's been earthquakes too

 

[Saucy]

Zelenski is a Jew. And to be anointed the King of Israel, the Jews for awhile thinking he is their messiah, the person has to be a Jew.

In Daniel 9:27, the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years, has long been thought to be a peace treaty. But many Christians are not aware that Moses back in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 required that all future leaders in essence confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant by having the law read to the nation on a 7 year interval.




View attachment 318180

Wow I did not know this! Do you happen to know of any resources where I can learn more? Maybe even a YouTube channel?

 

[Ligurian]

The seventh seal opened at the start of Revelation 8, it begins unfolding the events of Revelation. Which spans the 7 years, during which seal 1, seal 2, seal 3, seal 4, seal 5, seal 6 events take place.


View attachment 318178

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer: I have overcome the world. Matthew 9:15 And Ἰησοῦς said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast. {......crucifixion?......}
Revelation 6:4 And there went out another horse [that was] red: and [power] was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Matthew 11:28-30 Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden and I will give you rest.[29] Take My (ζυγὸν) yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.[30] For My yoke [is] easy, and My burden is light. {......Revelation 13:17?......}
6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a (ζυγὸν) pair of balances in his hand.[6] And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Revelation 2:21-23 and I will kill her children with Death. And all the churches shall know that I am He which searcheth the reins and hearts, and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. {......Isaiah 28:15?......}
Revelation 6:7-8 And I looked and behold a pale [green] horse: and his name that sat on him was Death and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword and with hunger, and with Death, and with the beasts of the earth.

 

[littleangelone]

i think the seven seals might be happening already, it all depends on what view you believe, personaly i think the black horse of famine is happening, with all the inflation & gas prices & all these food shortages it does sound like the 7 seals are starting to happen

 

[Douggg]

Wow I did not know this! Do you happen to know of any resources where I can learn more? Maybe even a YouTube channel?

I type faster than I talk . Just follow my posts and charts, and you will get a lot of good information. I haven't made a video in a couple of years.

Mainly though, my advice is God is wonderful, cling to Him.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The seventh seal opened at the start of Revelation 8, it begins unfolding the events of Revelation. Which spans the 7 years, during which seal 1, seal 2, seal 3, seal 4, seal 5, seal 6 events take place.


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One of the reasons “the last week in Dan 9” cannot be conflated with the judgments in the Revelation is because the last week pertains to the people of Daniel.

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Daniel 9:24)​

Daniel's people do not represent the Church in the strict sense. Daniel's people represent a nation amongst nations. The Church represents a people amongst nations. Any notion construing the church as a nation ends up having to admit the Church is spiritual Israel and that the New Covenant pertains to it, which demolishes dispensationalism. The judgments in the Revelation are done under the New Covenant and Christ’s mediation, which pertains to the Church and not exclusively to Daniel’s people. Dispensationism’s merging of the judgments in the Revelation with the last week in Daniel is untenable because the judgments in Daniel 9 pertain to Daniel’s people while those in the Revelation pertain to the Church. The only tenable interpretation of "the last week" is that it was fulfilled at the first advent, as the Aaronic mediation was ending. The judgments of the seven seals in the Revelation pertain to Christ’s mediation under the New Covenant and lead to the second advent.

 

[tranquil]

The opening of the seventh seal in Revelation 8 - begins the unfolding of Revelation, which is in the remaining chapters of Revelation. I edited my chart in my opening post to clarify.

The seventh seal doesn't start at the first seal, but the chapters that seventh seal kicks off do contain the start of the seven years. Revelation 11:3 and Revelation 12:6.

None of the seal events have begun yet. The seven seals are about the time of the end.

Jesus said all those things that you listed would happen - but the end is not yet.

'The opening of the seventh seal in Revelation 8 - begins the unfolding of Revelation, which is in the remaining chapters of Revelation.'​

What do you mean by this? That the Trumpets and Bowls are the events of Revelation? Yes, this understanding is correct. My issue is that you won't just understand it sequentially as it is written.

Your chart is just the standard pre-trib model from Fructenbaum - there's nothing particularly right or wrong about it since you won't say where in Revelation things go. The covenant starts at the 2 witnesses 1260 days, this I agree with. But the 2 witnesses 1260 days are up at the end of the 2nd woe! Meaning the 1st woe (the 5th Trumpet) must come before the 2 witnesses.

But from your perspective, this would require 2 abomination of desolations - which you won't accept.

But there are 2 abominations: the abomination statue before the 'sign of the son of man in heaven' from Matt 24 & the abomination 'living image' of Rev 13 which comes after the 'sign' which occurs at Revelation 12:1.

The 1st abomination occurs in the 'middle of the 7'. Hebrew months were initially just numbers, so Tishri 15 (Sukkot/ Feast of Tabernacles) is this event, the 'middle of the 7th month' which kicks off the start of the Trumpets/ 1st woe. The 2nd abomination is the standard 'living image' event, but this is at the 7th Trumpet/ 3rd woe.

4Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.​

The 3 woes of Revelation are the 'birth pains'. 1st then 2nd then 3rd birth pain (5th, then 6th, then 7th Trumpet) (which you want to say as 3rd woe then 1st then 2nd).

The 'beginning of birth pains' can mean 2 things: events before the start, OR the events during the start (as in, the 1st woe, 1st birth pain).

And that is how Revelation is laid out: these wars, martyrdom, famines, false christs, etc before the events of the Trumpets & Bowls. That is why we are seeing famine ramping up as we speak. We will see these things before the 'end' starts.

Then when the 'end' does start (at the 6th Seal/ start of the Trumpets), these are the events during the 1st woe. Then the great tribulation starts at the 6th Trumpet/ 2nd woe. Here is the great tribulation:

continuing Matt 24
9Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, 11and many false prophets will arise and mislead many. 12Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. 13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

[2 Witnesses right here!!]​

14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
​

Then the 3rd woe/ 7th Trumpet.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Do you believe we are in the midst of these seals now? We appear to be heading into a time of food shortages and rampant inflation right now. But I don't know of any king being anointed in Israel or war breaking out just yet (I'm thinking this would be more like a world war and not just the Ukraine-Russia conflict).

Hi the seals are not yet opened but we can see the events moving in the direction of those conditions. I would say we are at the beginning of sorrows and nearing what Isaiah 61 calls the acceptable year of the LORD that ends when the day of vengeance of our God beings. All sides will know weather the rapture ends up being pre, mid or post as the events unfold. As a pretrib guy I see Jesus asks us to pray that we be counted worthy to escape these things that are coming upon the Earth and to be standing before the Son of Man. This also is supported by the idea that they were eating and drinking marrying and giving in marriage up until the day Noah went into the ark. And the onset of this time is also described as a being caught in a snare upon all the earth. A snare is a sudden change in circumstances and so was the day of Noah as well. When the seals are opened the normalcy of buying and selling is largely disrupted and it is anything but normal. The directions and momentum are clear that a global collapse is coming and if you look into it It is obvious that this is a controlled demolition to bring in the great reset. Occupy until the LORD comes. Do not be afraid as we see this coming look up our redemption draws near..

 

[Douggg]

What do you mean by this? That the Trumpets and Bowls are the events of Revelation? Yes, this understanding is correct. My issue is that you won't just understand it sequentially as it is written.

Here is what you want it to be....

- but you disregarding the text. Seals 1-6 are uninterrupted in Revelation 6.

Seal 7 is detached and is two chapters away in Revelation 8 - because is in not in contiguous continuation of those first 6 seals, like you are thinking. The numbers are sequential, but not the contiguous continuation.

 

[Douggg]

'The opening of the seventh seal in Revelation 8 - begins the unfolding of Revelation, which is in the remaining chapters of Revelation.'​

What do you mean by this? That the Trumpets and Bowls are the events of Revelation? Yes, this understanding is correct. My issue is that you won't just understand it sequentially as it is written.

Your chart is just the standard pre-trib model from Fructenbaum - there's nothing particularly right or wrong about it since you won't say where in Revelation things go. The covenant starts at the 2 witnesses 1260 days, this I agree with. But the 2 witnesses 1260 days are up at the end of the 2nd woe! Meaning the 1st woe (the 5th Trumpet) must come before the 2 witnesses.

But from your perspective, this would require 2 abomination of desolations - which you won't accept.

But there are 2 abominations: the abomination statue before the 'sign of the son of man in heaven' from Matt 24 & the abomination 'living image' of Rev 13 which comes after the 'sign' which occurs at Revelation 12:1.

The 1st abomination occurs in the 'middle of the 7'. Hebrew months were initially just numbers, so Tishri 15 (Sukkot/ Feast of Tabernacles) is this event, the 'middle of the 7th month' which kicks off the start of the Trumpets/ 1st woe. The 2nd abomination is the standard 'living image' event, but this is at the 7th Trumpet/ 3rd woe.

4Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.​

The 3 woes of Revelation are the 'birth pains'. 1st then 2nd then 3rd birth pain (5th, then 6th, then 7th Trumpet) (which you want to say as 3rd woe then 1st then 2nd).

The 'beginning of birth pains' can mean 2 things: events before the start, OR the events during the start (as in, the 1st woe, 1st birth pain).

And that is how Revelation is laid out: these wars, martyrdom, famines, false christs, etc before the events of the Trumpets & Bowls. That is why we are seeing famine ramping up as we speak. We will see these things before the 'end' starts.

Then when the 'end' does start (at the 6th Seal/ start of the Trumpets), these are the events during the 1st woe. Then the great tribulation starts at the 6th Trumpet/ 2nd woe. Here is the great tribulation:

continuing Matt 24
9Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, 11and many false prophets will arise and mislead many. 12Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. 13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

[2 Witnesses right here!!]​

14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.​

Then the 3rd woe/ 7th Trumpet.

Tranquil, make some usable charts that people can understand what you are talking about.

You last chart was incomprehensible. What begins the 7 years ? That should be the first item shown on your chart. Leave all the Hebrew calendar dating off. Not necessary and just adds to confusion.

If you can afford it, invest in Corel Paint Shop Pro 2022, for $50 on Amazon. Then go to my thread in the visual arts forum to fast track on how to use it to make a chart.

Also it wouldn't hurt to invest in the Epic Pen program. So you can do easy screenshots and make comments like this....

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The seventh seal opened at the start of Revelation 8, it begins unfolding the events of Revelation. Which spans the 7 years, during which seal 1, seal 2, seal 3, seal 4, seal 5, seal 6 events take place.


View attachment 318178

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. Ephesians 4

 

[Douggg]

One of the reasons “the last week in Dan 9” cannot be conflated with the judgments in the Revelation is because the last week pertains to the people of Daniel.

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Daniel 9:24)​

Daniel's people do not represent the Church in the strict sense. Daniel's people represent a nation amongst nations. The Church represents a people amongst nations. Any notion construing the church as a nation ends up having to admit the Church is spiritual Israel and that the New Covenant pertains to it, which demolishes dispensationalism. The judgments in the Revelation are done under the New Covenant and Christ’s mediation, which pertains to the Church and not exclusively to Daniel’s people. Dispensationism’s merging of the judgments in the Revelation with the last week in Daniel is untenable because the judgments in Daniel 9 pertain to Daniel’s people while those in the Revelation pertain to the Church. The only tenable interpretation of "the last week" is that it was fulfilled at the first advent, as the Aaronic mediation was ending. The judgments of the seven seals in the Revelation pertain to Christ’s mediation under the New Covenant and lead to the second advent.

Jerry, I have no idea at what you are getting at. The 70th week of Daniel 9 is still unfulfilled.

 

[tranquil]

Here is what you want it to be....

View attachment 318212


- but you disregarding the text. Seals 1-6 are uninterrupted in Revelation 6.

View attachment 318213

Seal 7 is detached and is two chapters away in Revelation 8 - because is in not in contiguous continuation of those first 6 seals, like you are thinking. The numbers are sequential, but not the contiguous continuation.

I do not 'want' it to be any particular way. The material of the Seals in general have been around for 2000 years. They will be present before the Trumpets. Just like the Olivet Discourse describes.

The 7th Seal is 'detached' as you say because the faithful will not go through the 'great tribulation'. That is when the events start - at the Trumpets. Like you seem to agree with. That is when the 'start' occurs.