The seven kings of Revelation 17:10

nolidad

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timtams

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Well as I don't have $80 to spend on a book to check your hypothesis, I guess I will hold with 18 centuries of scholarship. And I fully accept the overwhelming empirical evidence that John the Elder (aged) is the apostle John of the book of revelation. John would have been in his sixties when he wrote hie letters and the revelation.
Sure, it's up to you, but I can tell you for a fact it changes everything, and it has endorsements from some of the top scholars on the subject for a reason. But if that isn't worth ordering a book thru your library, nothing else I can say.
 
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nolidad

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Gog's army has been buried and in the grave - before the feast on the dead bodies takes place in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

How can the birds and beasts in Ezekiel 39:17-20 feed on bodies that have been buried, in the previous verses?

Do you understand context at all?

Verse 4&5 is the simple declaration of God that it will happen

Verses 16-20 is the command for the birds to go feast!

Remember chapters 38-39 are all one prophetic utterance of Gog and Magog. The reason Armeggedon is not here is that Gog has a limited number of allies while in Armeggedon, all the armies of the entire earth gather to battle the Lord!

Rev. 16:

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Ezekiel and REvelation are tow different battles- close enough is not good enough when it comes to Gods Prophetic Word.
 
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nolidad

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Sure, it's up to you, but I can tell you for a fact it changes everything, and it has endorsements from some of the top scholars on the subject for a reason. But if that isn't worth ordering a book thru your library, nothing else I can say.

Well I wonder if it just like all the scholars who a few decades ago gathered together in the "Jesus Seminar" and with all their intellectual firepower removed about 70% of the Words of Christ out of Jesus mouth. Like someone nearly 2 millenia removed knows better than one who is less than a century removed and had contact with many.
 
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nolidad

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The word "dispensation" comes from the Greek word, "oikonomia," economy, administration, management, or an established set of standards, and carries with it the connotation of stewardship. Jesus uses the term in Luke 16 in his parable about the unrighteous steward.

Luke 16:1-13
"Now He was also saying to the disciples, 'There was a rich man who had a manager, and this manager was reported to him as squandering his possessions. And he called him and said to him, 'What is this I hear about you? Give an accounting of your management, for you can no longer be manager' (oikonomien). The manager (oikonomos) said to himself, 'What shall I do, since my master is taking the management (oikonomian) away from me? I am not strong enough to dig; I am ashamed to beg. I know what I shall do, so that when I am removed from the management (oikonomias) people will welcome me into their homes.' And he summoned each one of his master's debtors, and he began saying to the first, 'How much do you owe my master?' And he said, 'A hundred measures of oil.' And he said to him, 'Take your bill, and sit down quickly and write fifty.' Then he said to another, 'And how much do you owe?' And he said, 'A hundred measures of wheat.' He said to him, 'Take your bill, and write eighty.' And his master praised the unrighteous manager because he had acted shrewdly; for the sons of this age are more shrewd in relation to their own kind than the sons of light. And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by means of the wealth of unrighteousness, so that when it fails, they will receive you into the eternal dwellings. He who is faithful in a very little thing is faithful also in much; and he who is unrighteous in a very little thing is unrighteous also in much. Therefore if you have not been faithful in the use of unrighteous wealth, who will entrust the true riches to you? And if you have not been faithful in the use of that which is another's, who will give you that which is your own? No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.'"

Paul uses the term in 1 Cor. 9:17 when he writes, "For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have a stewardship (oikonomian) entrusted to me." or as the KJV translates it, "For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me."

In Colossioans 1:25 we read,

1 Colossians 1:25 NAS
"Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship (oikonomian) from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,"

1 Colossians 1:25 KJV
"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation (oikonomian) of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;"

1 Colossians 1:25 NIV
"I have become its servant by the commission (oikonomian) God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness--"

So the term can be found in scripture. However, John Darby radically departed from the Church's historical treatment of the term going all back through the early Church fathers (ECFs). Historically any mention of "dispensation" occurred in context of "covenant." This is not to say they were asserting Covenant Theology as it contemporarily exists. They simply did not see any distinctions between God's covenants and God's dispensations. Similarly, the church has (generally) seen the covenants and the revelation of scripture itself) as a single cohesive but progressive revelation with each covenant initiated by God all covered or subordinate under the one eventually fulfilled covenant found in Christ that existed before the world was creates (1 Pet. 1:20).

So like many, many other streams of thought, doctrinal positions, and relevant practice, Darby departed from what had up to his point been eighteen hundred years of Christian thought, doctrine, and practice. Darby argued the dispensations are distinct and unrelated and Dispensationalism continues to teach this position. This is most obvious in their separation of the Jews in the Abrahamic Covenant from the Church. Lewis Sperry Chafer, the founder of Dallas Theological Seminary says the following in his book titled, "Dispensationalism," in which he explains dispensations in Dispensational Theology,

"To quote the Century Dictionary bearing on the theological import of the word: '(a) The method or scheme by which God has at different times developed his purpose, and revealed himself to man; or the body of privileges bestowed, and the duties and responsibilities enjoined, in connection with that scheme or method of revelation as the Old of Jewish dispensation; the New Gospel dispensation..."

The Wikipedia article of Dispensationalism summaries the matter well,

"Progressive revelation is the doctrine in Christianity that each successive book of the Bible provides further revelation of God and His program..... Dispensationalism, however, holds that both the Old Testament and New Testament are interpreted using literal grammatical-historical interpretation. As a result, they reject the idea that the meaning of the Old Testament was hidden and that the New Testament can alter the straightforward meaning of the Old Testament. Their view of progressive revelation is that the New Testament contains new information which can build on the Old Testament but cannot change its meaning."

The various dispensations may go by different names or labels but generally you will find seven listed. Pre-sin, Adam, Noah, Abraham, David, Moses, Jesus, for example, or the dispensations of innocence, conscience, human governance, promise, law grace, and the millennium (as another example). There some who assert variations, other may have as many as nine, but Dispensationalism generally asserts seven. They've built a whole theology around the word, "oikonomia".

Too bad that you rely on such an unspiritual authority as Wiki to let you falsely define what dispensational theology teaches.
 
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nolidad

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The progression is that king 7 comes to power right before the 7 years. About halfway through, he will be mortally wounded, right before the 42 months. But he recovers.

Why do you have such a problem with the Word of God?

There are ten kings- three of whom the antichrist conquers!
 
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timtams

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Well I wonder if it just like all the scholars who a few decades ago gathered together in the "Jesus Seminar" and with all their intellectual firepower removed about 70% of the Words of Christ out of Jesus mouth. Like someone nearly 2 millenia removed knows better than one who is less than a century removed and had contact with many.
That's the argument though, as to whether they did. The book shows that all the major fathers before Eusebius held to the early date. Sounds like your mind is already made up though.
 
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nolidad

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when Revelation was (revealed and) written, the 6th king "was"

Nero "was" living, when Revelation was (revealed and) written, 2000 years ago

Could not have been. JOhn was exiled by Domitian who ruled 81-95 AD and not Nero!

Nero was more interested in killing believers and not banishing them.
 
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nolidad

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Never said any such thing.

I don't trade posts with those who post straw men.
I don't trade posts with those who put words I didn't post into my posts.
I don't trade posts with those who argue straw men and don't self-correct when the errors are noted.
I don't trade posts with posters who ignore posts' actual contents.
I don't trade posts with posters who post ad hominem.
I don't trade posts with postes who try to hijack others' ops.
I don't trade posts with those who cannot or will not stay on topic.

So correct your own content if you want to trade posts with me.


What I said about Dispensationalism is true and easily verified. What I said about Dispensationalists is common and evident in this op. I did not make any of it up. You cannot prove I think Dispensationalists are wolves in sheeps clothing. I never said any such thing, never implied any such thing, never insinuated and such thing and do not believe such a thing. If I asked you to prove me stating such a thing you could not prove your own claim You made that up. You bore false witness.

So correct you own content if you wish to trade posts with me.

Well it is you who called dispensationalists false teachers and Jesus equates them with wolves in sheep s clothing. I can go back and paste your quote for you.

Otherwise I agree, trying to dialogue with you appears very fruitless.
 
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nolidad

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That's the argument though, as to whether they did. The book shows that all the major fathers before Eusebius held to the early date. Sounds like your mind is already made up though.

Well I am always open to new history of the Bible. But being a pensioner, my days of spending that much for a book are over. I have five major works that show an early date of revelation and later date. That John the apostle did and did not write revelation.

But comparing the history of Neros sadistic reign prior to his suicide and the tumult in rome itself and from the works of the ante-nicene fathers (32 volumes) I have not seen compelling historic evidence to rethink thatr John was exiled under domitian and that He wasn't the author of the book of revelation. All facts point to him writing.

Remember at his calling by Jesus, according to Jewish cultural history, John would have been a young teen in 27 A.D. So by the time Domitian began to rule he would have been from 63-65 years! Definitely John the Elder (aged).

But if there is a way I can get this book, I would love to look at it! Being retired I have time to study issues. But I do have to tell you, most "new" scholarship I have studied leaves much to be desired- for the fact they are nearly 2 millenia removed and are looking through the lens of ages and even liberal bias for the most part.
 
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Oberamagau

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I am saying none of the heads have their crowns in Revelation 17, when the "one is" king, king 6, was ruling because the prophecy of the 7 kings was not fulfilled in the first century.

In Revelation 12, the heads have their crowns because king 7 has come to power with there being 7 years left before Jesus's return. The 7 years are Revelation 12:6 the 1260 days, followed by the time, times, half time, Revelation 12:14.

In Revelation 13, none of the heads have their crowns because king 7 has just be killed right before the 42 months prior to Jesus's return. The death of king 7 ends the prophecy of the 7 kings.

Then king 7 coming back to life as king 8, he is then the beast.

I explained this in an earlier post in this thread, but it bears repeating because most people don't understand why the crowns/no crowns on the heads and horns change depending upon the chapter (17,12,13).

It all has to do with the time elements found in each of those three chapters.
I don't even believe that the Revelation 13 beast is the same as the Revelation 17 beast! I say they are two different end-time Islamic Caliphates. One the king of the North - the other the king of the South. Daniel 11.
 
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Oberamagau

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There is only one feast for the fowls. Verse 4 declares the feast and verses 16-20 is the command God gives for Ezekiel to go feast on the dead! Same event- one is declaring it and the other is the command for the feast. Putting a 7 year gap between the two is an arbitrary and capricious thing to do.

Sorry but the Russia invasion does not start the 70th week of Daniel. The signing of the covenant by the antichrist with Israel does!



Diesel maybe- but it could also be tthat Rusia uses lignosstone in many of their armaments. It is lighter than aluminum, stronger than steel and burns hotter than coal. We will know for sure when it happens.
Where is this 'signing of a covenant' found? Are you saying here....

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease."

As a futurist, I believe (the covenant) Daniel 9:24-27 was fulfilled when Christ confirmed the New Covenant of his blood.

Also, the burning of weapons for 7 years is likely nuclear fuel from their weapons.
 
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Douggg

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The idea of the deadly wound being upon the 7th king is a misapplication of both Rev.13 and Rev.17.
The deadly wound is not "upon" king 7. It is king 7 (one of the 7 heads) who will be killed and come back to life.
 
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Douggg

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Firstly, the "deadly wound" is NOT upon the beast king, which the beast king in Rev.13 is represented by the 2nd beast, the "another beast", the one who does miracles and speaks like a dragon (because he will be the dragon).
The first beast is the king (king 8) in Revelation 13. The second beast is the "false prophet:.

The first beast - has the one head (king 7) that had been mortally wounded (killed) but is healed (come back to life).
Per Revelation 17:9, the "seven heads" are "seven mountains" upon which the woman sits, not kings.
The seven mountains are where the woman sits. The woman is not the beast.
That "scarlet coloured beast" has "seven heads and ten horns". Revelation 13:1 showed us that is about the 1st beast that comes up out of the sea, having ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns. It's represents a beast world kingdom, as in the next Revelation 13:2 verse the Daniel 7 chapter about beast kingdoms is given as a reference.
The beast in Revelation 13:1 is not scarlet colored. It has a composite make up of a bear, lion, leopard. The second beast, the false prophet, has no description as far as color. Has two horns like a lamb, but speaks like a dragon - in other words a religous figure who is directed by Satan.

Satan, in both Revelation 17 and Revelation 12, represents the beast (the disembodied spirit now in the bottomless pit) because that spirit does not come out of the bottomless pit until king 7 is killed/comes back to life to become king 8 in Revelation 13.

All it means is that when king 7 comes back to life to become king 8, he will be possessed by that spirit coming our of the bottomless pit.
 
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Josheb

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Too bad that you rely on such an unspiritual authority as Wiki to let you falsely define what dispensational theology teaches.
Too bad you make baseless, derisive claims you cannot prove.

Would you prefer I quote from leading Dispensationalists? I can do that. Will you then repent of the misguided statements you just made?

Here's one of the things Chafer taught in his book, "Dispensationalism,"

It should be observed that though Judaism and Christianity have much in common, they never merge the one into the other. Having each it's own eschatology reaching into eternity, any attempt to fuse these two systems in the interests of a mere unity of the Scriptures is doomed to fail under the acid test of an unprejudiced, faithful searching of the Word of God.... Equally to be desired is an exhaustive work on the soteriology of Judaism; observing in it the first law of a true Old Testament Theology, namely, that in every instance its doctrine shall stand only on the body of truth which obtained in the period under consideration. The all-too-common practice of imposing Christianity back upon Judaism or Judaism forward upon Christianity, is the cause of that dire confusion which appears in some theological literature. The Word of God distinguishes between earth and heaven, even after they are created new. Similarly, as as clearly it distinguishes between God's consistent and eternal earthly purpose, which is the substance of Judaism; and His consistent and eternal heavenly purpose which is the substance of Christianity, and it is as illogical and fanciful to contend that Judaism and Christianity ever merge as it would be to contend that heaven and earth cease to exist as separate spheres. Dispensationalism has its foundation in and is understood in the distinctions between Judaism and Christianity."

The problem is this position is demonstrably incorrect. It can be demonstrated from plainly read scripture - scripture as written, read literally - that Judaism informs Christianity and passages Dispensationalism says are unrelated are in fact stated as related by scripture itself! Acts 2 is one such example.

Acts 2:22-36 KJV
"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."

So here we have Peter, speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, stating quite plainly that David was speaking about Jesus when he prophesied in the OT. The prophesies that seem to be about David are in fact about Jesus. David declares the prophesies that were seemingly about hims were in fact about Jesus. Not only was David speaking about Jesus, but Jesus resurrected. That is what the Jew Peter speaking of Jewish scripture had to say to other Jews gathered in Jerusalem that day of Pentecost. That is what the Scriptures teach. That is what the Scriptures plainly state. That is what the Scriptures literally teach when read literally. Peter literally states David was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that He would place one of David's descendants on his throne and seeing what was to come, David spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah.

Dispensationalism denies this.

In his commentary on Acts 2 John Darby implied Peter was not speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit but was instead speaking from his flesh. In other words, even though Darby asserted scripture should be read literally, he did not on this occasion read scripture literally!

"The character of this testimony will be remarked here. It is essentially that of Peter. It goes no farther than the affirmation of the fact, that He who had been rejected by the Jews is made in heaven Lord and Christ."

The problem is this is not the testimony of Peter. It is the testimony of the Holy Spirit! Verse 4 of Acts 2 states quite literally, "they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance."

The Holy Spirit inspired David spoke of the Messiah ascending David's throne in heaven. The Holy Spirit inspired Peter, speaking hundreds of years later confirmed this prophesy when it reached fulfillment. The uninspired teacher of Dispensationalism, Lewis Sperry Chafer teaches that Old Testament doctrine David was teaching ""shall stand only on the body of truth which obtained in the period under consideration." Chafer teaches there is an irrevocable distinction between Judaism and Christianity.

So the evidence has been presented: One of the most preeminent teacher of Premillennial Dispensationalist has plainly stated in his defining treatise on Dispensationalism what Wiki correctly summarized. Dispensationalism does in fact, now demonstrably proven, "reject the idea that the meaning of the Old Testament was hidden and that the New Testament can alter the straightforward meaning of the Old Testament," exactly as Wiki stated.

If you like, nolidad, I can provide quotes from the founder of Dispensationalism, John Nelson Darby, more quotes from Dallas Theological Seminary founder Lewis Sperry Chafer, as well as quotes from leading and noted Dispensationalists Charles Ryrie, Dwight Pentecost, John Walvoord, and others proving what I have posted.



Unlike you, I do not post statements about what a person believes without demonstrable evidence to support what I post.


Now maybe you didn't know this is what Dispensationalism teaches. Now you know. John Darby built his theology on four tenets:

1) The Church is corrupt
2) Scripture must be rendered via the grammatical-historical hermeneutic
3) Prophesy must be read literally
4) There is a strict separation between Israel and the Church
5) The rapture and the Second Coming are two separate and distinct events.​



As a consequence, his theology ended up departing from the long-established and well-established thinking, doctrines, and practices of Christianity worldwide. As a consequence of his teachings a large portion of the Church began growing a series of false teachers who were incorrectly predicting and prognosticating the end of the world and/or the return of Christ. That practice has been tempered in recent years but the practice continues and this op is evidence of that fact. For the last 180 years it has been predicting Jesus is coming on this day or that, within this time frame of that one, and he hasn't come. No one else in all of Christendom has these problems.

You can make all the snide, baseless, and derisive comments of derision you like but 1) I am unaffected by them, 2) the evidence of Dispensationalism speaks for itself, and 3) you would benefit from doing a little research yourself on these matters. I have made several reading recommendations to various posters in this op. I'll list them anew if you're interested.
 
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Douggg

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According to you either Moses wrote a new law instead of the one God gave hom, or he is commanding the Priests every 7 years to read the command to read the command every 7 years. The text clearly shows He is saying to read this law- which is the command to read this law- a circle!
It is not instead of the commandments God gave Moses, but in addition to.

The "law" Moses wrote as he stood before the children of Israel is just written instructions for Israel to commemorate why they have the privilege of living in the land of Israel.

Moses did not write all of the 613 commandments there, right then, before the people of Israel, that had gathered before him just prior to crossing over the Jordan.

Moses gave the written instructions (called "this law") and presented it to priests AND the elders. That is what is in the text of verse 9, AND.

"this law" is the law encapsulated in verses 10 - 13.

Verse 10 - 13 is the "this law". It is only saying that Moses wrote it down, handed it to the priests and elders - as they stood before the people - probably standing on a high point so they could see them - and then spoke to the people what was supposed to be done by the leadership of Israel - "the leadership" implied by the priests AND elders - to speak to the people (the nation of Israel) every seven years.

Moses is saying the leadership is supposed to give a big speech to the nation every 7 years about how they ended up inheriting the land of Israel; a continuous requirement, to future generations who weren't there themselves - so the exodus would not be forgetten.

Which is why Moses said in verse 13...

13 And that their children, which have not known any thing, may hear, and learn to fear the LORD your God, as long as ye live in the land whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.

"which have not known any thing", Moses is looking far into the future, to generations who would be living in the land of Israel, but did not experience the exodus, and being brought into the promised land themselves.
 
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Douggg

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Why do you have such a problem with the Word of God?

There are ten kings- three of whom the antichrist conquers!
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.


Read Daniel 7 carefully. It does not say that the little horn subdues three kings - from the ten - only that he subdues three kings.

It could be that there are 13 kings involved. 3 against him, and 10 for him.

If it is three from the ten, those three subdued kings would be replaced, because the number has to be ten, for ten kings to be in power when they hand their kingdom over to the person after he has become the beast, to be dictator of their kingdom.
________________________________________________________

I am saying consider the possibilities as things begin to materialize. There maybe 13 kings involved. Or there maybe just 10. At the start.
 
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I don't even believe that the Revelation 13 beast is the same as the Revelation 17 beast! I say they are two different end-time Islamic Caliphates. One the king of the North - the other the king of the South. Daniel 11.

Daniel 11:36-40 is about the Revelation 13 beast. He will be attacked from the south, then north. He handles those. Then news from the north and east alarm him. The beast is the king of the West, the EU and allies.
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The muslim end times factor will end with Gog/Magog event. They are not a factor in the 7 years that follow Gog/Magog.

Islam and muslims were not around at the time of the first 6 kings, the Julio-Claudians. king 7 will become king 8 the beast of Revelation 17:11, which is the same beast in Revelation 13:1-8.
 
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