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the self replicating watch argument

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Bungle_Bear

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OK .. what's more impossible?
I'm tempted to stop reading at his point. Anyone who thinks something can be "more impossible" than anything else doesn't have a solid grasp of language. So I'm not hopeful for where this post is going....

An inorganic watch replicating itself?

Or, an inorganic watch suddenly becoming a living organism?

Too many ignore that fact, and just begin the argument with... "It was just there!"

To become a living organism from inanimate elements is impossible.. unless its constructed to be an autonomous entity with sustaining life. Yet, life does not come from the mere combining of the elements. Life is a mystery.

What we see here has become an argument that is outside of the real argument, that now serves as a distraction away from the real issue!

Inanimate matter can not spontaneously become organically alive! God gives life. Yes. God is the source of all life. Its a futile argument designed to argue over distracting details away from the truth. Its being an argument that blocks honest inquiry, and is unwilling to logically walk its way back to the origin of the beginning of life.

Its become vanity. For, non living matter can not spontaneously become alive and an instinctive driven life. Let alone life with the ability to reason and make decisions.

In the mean time.. We remain distracted with these arguments when we think the crux of solving the argument lays in its details. When its really how the details came into existence in the first place... (which is denied a hearing).

Its like a rigged court.
Turns out I was right. Another creationist who doesn't understand the difference between evolution and abiogenesis.
 
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Kylie

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Yes. The Holy Tradition of the ancient Orthodox Christian Church, which is the Holy Spirit Himself breathing the Truth into all of God's children. In other words, God Himself witnesses to the Truth of bodily resurrection through ongoing demonstrations of power, visible only to those who have become able to see them. I have already explained this quite succinctly in my first response to what had been written by various participants in this thread.

Quite frankly, if a person does not desire to believe, then they don't have to, because they can simply choose to deprive themselves of the Holy Spirit by subjecting themselves to the passions, which covers the eye of the soul so that all judgment and reasoning can be done in the dark, thereby allowing falsehood to reign within such a person, or such persons. When the light is allowed to shine in the darkness, through repentance against the passions, then the proofs and evidences of God's undeniable presence are easily seen and recognized. Such is the nature of freewill.

"...visible only to those who have become able to see them."

And that bit right there is a problem.

I can claim that some deity has demonstrated to me proof of its existence, and it has given me proof, but you can't see it because those proofs are visible only to those who have become able to see them.

You see, when you include in your argument any method for you to explain away anything that contradicts it, your argument becomes invalid.

I could claim there's an elephant in my living room. But you'd say, "I can't hear it or see it or touch it or smell it..." I could then say that the elephant is invisible, intangible, completely silent, produces no odours at all, all things which perfectly explain why you can't detect the elephant. But that's not going to convince you that maybe there is an elephant there, is it?
 
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xianghua

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Different species and genera of finches.

You asked for an example of evidence for evolution. You seem to agree that all these different species evolved from one species. So there is your example.
but its just variation. if you want to call it evolution fine. but remember that under that definition even if the bible is true evolution is true.
 
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xianghua

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You have already agreed that animals can do some things that cars can't do. So since you and I both agree that animals can do some things that cars can't do, why do you claim that if cars have a limit, animals must have the same limit?
the opposite is also true: cars can do things that animals cant do.
 
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xianghua

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Modern day automobiles (cars and trucks) were not made by fast creation.

they also were not made by millions of years.

The technology was developed over many thousands of years, starting with the invention of the wheel. The same goes for most all of our technology. In nature, changes in physical traits can be observed over successive generations, so we can see that living creatures undergo changes.

but we always see variations and not new kinds of creatures. also: see my analogy to a self replicating car. do you think that if we had a self replicating molecule it can change into a car?
 
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Speedwell

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but its just variation. if you want to call it evolution fine. but remember that under that definition even if the bible is true evolution is true.
What does the Bible have to do with any of this?
 
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GenemZ

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I'm tempted to stop reading at his point. Anyone who thinks something can be "more impossible" than anything else doesn't have a solid grasp of language. So I'm not hopeful for where this post is going....

Never heard the term a fortiori? Such logic can been used in debates for such things as these.

Since we are dealing with impossibilities to begin with? Why have you been reading even this far? :angel:
 
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Bugeyedcreepy

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but we never seen evolution of a new kind of creature. just variation of the same kind.
and when a population becomes two populations, those two populations will continue to just be variations of the same kind within their population as generations go on, gradually becoming so different to the other population as to become separate species, then on to separate families, then onto separate clades, etc.
incorrect. we did seen it in the lab.
Citation please... Where did you see this in what lab, and how has it not become mainstream news?
 
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PsychoSarah

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Do you have a better way of measuring large scale genotype and phenotype difference?
-_- considering the fact that we can actually sequence genomes, I'd say yes. Heck, given that species of animals is partly determined by ability to reproduce, it entirely neglects the population of Triops I am working with, which reproduce via self-fertilization. Phenotype is not the best indication of the degree of difference in genotype, however, so I wouldn't consider phenotype in and of itself to be

That taxonomy is a human invention seems like a pretty trivial point when it still effectively communicates the fact that we're talking about large scale change.
Actually, from looking at taxonomy so much, I'd say genus is more a measure of the number of divergences that retain certain common traits we chose to focus on rather than a consistent measure of a specific degree of similarity/difference. For example, while all members of the genus Nepenthes seem to be capable of reproducing with each other, this is not the case with all members of the genus Drosera. These are both plant genera. Genus doesn't even have consistency on whether or not the members share the same number of chromosomes.

Yes, I am well aware that phenotype variation has to do with genes. Should I rephrase then? Changes to genotype and changes to phenotype aren't directly related. Happy?
-_- they are directly related. Rather, all changes in phenotype are not due to changes in the genome exclusively. But straight up, unless the mutation itself is neutral (like changing a codon to another codon that selects for the same amino acid), chances are the mutation will have some impact on phenotype. Assuming the cells actually use that gene to begin with, which is why mutations as an embryo cause so much more change than the mutations your cells acquire throughout adult life.

Yes I believe I mentioned that epigenetic changes have to do with the expression of genes.

I believe you're mistaken. There are epigenetic mechanisms that can alter what organisms have the potential to express. Take the bacterial SOS response for example.


The SOS Regulatory Network:
The SOS Regulatory Network
-_- note the list of regulatory genes in your source and that all of them are just as prone to being influenced by mutations as any other gene. Heck, cell specialization in and of itself is the result in only certain genes being expressed within the cell, but the process by which the excess genes are kept inactive is mediated by protein products of genes. Genes influenced by hormones and other signals given off by cells in close proximity. However, the process by which the cells do it is nevertheless a part of the genome just as much subject to mutation as anything else.

The issue with treating epigenetic influences as a major cause of evolutionary trends is that the ones not tied in some way to genes directly have practically no staying power. If epigenetic changes were the most prominent source of variation, the differences between humans and other members of the same species living in different environments would be far more extreme within a relatively short period of time.


In fact to go a little further on that, you might want to see Timescales of Genetic and Epigenetic Inheritance:


https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(07)00121-3
-_- your source is over a decade old and incorrectly suggests that mutation rates in microbes (which I assume to be any single celled organisms, but most likely refer to prokaryotes) are higher than in human cells: "Point mutation rates vary between organisms, and values range up to about 10^4 per base pair per generation for certain RNA viruses, around 10^6 to 10^8 for most microbes, and 10^9 per base pair per cellular generation for human cells."
-_- given that epigenetics is a new study in genetics, perhaps the most rapidly developing area of science within the past 20 years, why would you ever use a source more than a decade old (this source is from 2007)?

One of the few examples of multicellular organisms this paper actually refers to is the result of an injection of RNA into cells (not exactly something that would normally happen and could be expected to be a source of inherited changes in the wild). The other simply involves genes impacting the expression of each other to produce variable genotypes, and that since genes interact, methylation of one of these interacting genes will result in a different phenotype. That is, genetically identical individuals won't necessarily end up with identical phenotypes. True as this is, it isn't directed any more than mutations are. Here's the part of your source I am referring to: "In multicellular organisms, a great deal of recent effort has focused on the role of transgenerational inheritance of RNA molecules. Most notably, microinjection of double-stranded RNAs into Caenorhabditis elegans is sufficient to produce a loss-of-function phenotype in a substantial fraction of F2 animals, and this effect persists for up to 80 generations after the injection (Fire et al., 1998, Vastenhouw et al., 2006). A small number of molecules were sufficient to initiate this heritable effect with thanks to amplification of the interfering RNAs by RNA-dependent RNA polymerase. In mammals, epigenetic inheritance of RNA molecules was recently described in which expression of unusual Kit RNAs in the germline of mice resulted in a phenotypic effect (on coat color) in the progeny of the affected mice such that two genetically identical mice might differ phenotypically based on their parents' genotypes (Rassoulzadegan et al., 2006). This last example mirrors the phenomenon of paramutation in plants, which was first discovered in maize in the 1950s by R. Brink (see also the Essay by V. Chandler, page 641 of this issue)."

To view changes in bacterial cells and the cells of other single celled organisms as being analogous to changes in multicellular organisms is a big mistake. In single celled organisms, daughter cells are composed of the cytoplasm, etc., of a parent cell, thus are invariably going to be directly influenced by any epigenetic factors which impacted that parent cell. However, in multicellular organisms such as humans, the sex cells are heavily protected from genetic change compared to somatic cells, thus they are not hit immediately with those epigenetic changes, only having some of the tendencies of the parent as a result of being somewhat exposed. As a result, epigenetic inheritance gradually increases influence as we age, and also changes as we age and are exposed to different environmental conditions. This makes epigenetic changes not factor in nearly as much in a 20 year old as it does in a 60 year old, yet those daughter cells would be impacted practically as much as the parent cell was. This also means that despite a degree of inheritance, the less similar of an environment you live in compared to your parents, the less of a shared epigenetic pattern can be observed. The changes are just too unstable and don't hit early enough to be as big of an evolutionary influence as you want to assert they are, and they aren't less random in a sense of selecting for beneficial traits in multicellular organisms. And all of the gene mediated ones obviously are subject to genetic mutation themselves, not independent of it.


Ok, the difficulty I have with this is that you're banking on the same or similar (allegedly random) mutations to occur universally.
How so? Very different gene combinations can result in extremely similar phenotype, so I see no reason I would need to rely on that. Mutations are not purely random, though, they are just the most random aspect of evolution. Random assumes that all mutations are equally probable, and that simply is not the case. Mutations that insert a large number of bases are far less common than ones that insert only 1, and certain regions of genomes are far more prone to mutations than others. Hence why mutations in eye color are so uncommon in humans yet more than 10% of hemophilia types A and B occur in individuals with no family history of the disease whatsoever.

Either nature isn't very creative and has to regularly wait on the correct type of variability, (which may or may not come) or it might be reasonable to think that there are programmed default responses.
You seem to be assuming that there are a ton of different traits that would be equally beneficial for a given environment, and that there aren't any traits so extremely beneficial that any environment of a given type would select for it very powerfully. For example, in all aquatic environments, having a streamlined body with very little drag is a beneficial trait to have, and there aren't many body shapes which optimize it. Thus dolphins and sharks end up with very similar body shapes despite extremely different evolutionary histories. Tons of different genomes result in similar body plans, though, so the same mutations don't have to occur to end up with this result.

However, in a cold environment, there are lots of very different ways for animals to adapt, from growing very thick fur to having blood that contains anti freezing agents to having thick layers of fat. Organisms which share those traits despite not sharing an ancestor with those traits may have similarities in their relevant genes, but the genes are not identical by any means. There are a lot of mutations that will result in fur becoming thicker, for example.

No. You are obviously very wrong about what I think.
Apparently so. But again, you just seem to be assuming that a lot of variation is more the result of epigenetics rather than the genes themselves changing, but this is demonstrably false (for multicellular organisms in particular). If, for example, the key differences between a polar bear and a grizzly bear were epigenetic, their genomes would be a lot more similar to each other than they actually are, to the point that they could potentially be confused for each other. Plus, there is a huge variety in epigenetic tendencies between humans, but it doesn't result in much phenotype variation, and any that does result doesn't persist for more than a few generations with any consistency. Significant and stable instances of epigenetic change resulting in changes in phenotype that are adaptive to the environment are extremely rare in multicellular organisms and they aren't stable traits that can be consistently passed on.

Even within individual multicellular organisms, the trait that is purely a result of gene expression changes alone can change back and forth for no really good reason. For example, I have a professor that grows day lilies. In day lilies, the trait of variegation is extremely unstable. Individual plants can go back and forth between producing leaves with and without variegation, and it is practically impossible to breed for this trait with any consistency. It also has no benefit to the plant whatsoever, which is why it is so rare in the wild. Yet, we observe plants that go back and forth between the more beneficial fully green leaves and the variegated ones, with no purpose to that change in gene expression. Your assumption that epigenetic changes are more centered on beneficial phenotypes in multicellular organisms doesn't have strong evidence supporting it. At best, the changes have a temporary benefit.


I don't buy the idea that *random* changes accumulate over enough generations. I think the weight of the evidence supports the idea that biology has a programmed path.
-_- you do know that epigenetic factors mainly turn genes off and that they aren't directly accomodating changes in environment, right? That is, people addicted to tanning that have kids aren't going to improve the ability of those kids to tan due to how tanning influences epigenetic tendencies. In fact, exposing yourself to anything that makes the process of methylation more prominent, such as smoking, decreases quality of health for oneself and the next two generations following you. The only way for methylation of a gene to be beneficial is if that gene is mutated in a very specific way and you have redundant copies of it. That is, the gene is mutated and competes with the functional variants for resources to such an extent that they can't function if it is active. And epigenetic factors aren't "pre-programmed" to target those.

-_- it's more along the lines of "that's a really great cell division regulation gene you got there. Wouldn't it be a shame if it was rendered inactive at age 55, despite being an entirely beneficial gene?"
 
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"...visible only to those who have become able to see them."

And that bit right there is a problem.

I can claim that some deity has demonstrated to me proof of its existence, and it has given me proof, but you can't see it because those proofs are visible only to those who have become able to see them.

You see, when you include in your argument any method for you to explain away anything that contradicts it, your argument becomes invalid.

I could claim there's an elephant in my living room. But you'd say, "I can't hear it or see it or touch it or smell it..." I could then say that the elephant is invisible, intangible, completely silent, produces no odours at all, all things which perfectly explain why you can't detect the elephant. But that's not going to convince you that maybe there is an elephant there, is it?
Jesus Christ, the single most influential man ever, taught that "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: ..." (John 6:44)

That is the problem. Our Father gives, by His Holy Spirit, some people the ability to hear and to see what is irrefutable Truth. These people who are drawn are the same who hate and repent of evil. If anyone doesn't want to repent of all evil, they can stay hidden in the darkness until death comes upon them, and then they will know that they loved the darkness because their deeds were evil. The love of the Father is therefor not in them. (John 3:19)

I have already given the proofs that I have experienced and witnessed. These weren't good enough and will never be good enough, because they are being disbelieved, ignored, or otherwise simply forgotten about, because that's how the "darkness" operates. I could feed five thousand men, not counting their women and children, with a few loaves of bread and a couple of fish, and afterwards gather up 12 bushel baskets full of food fragments after all those thousands of people ate their fill, and you could be there and the truth would still elude you, somehow, just like it did the disciples of Jesus, who had been there to see Jesus' miracle of the loaves and fish, yet still did not know that He had all the power of God and was going to raise Himself from the dead after being crucified, just as He foretold He would do.

The disciples of Jesus couldn't fully know Him until they had received the power of the Holy Spirit, after His Resurrection and Ascension. Then they knew full well Who Jesus Christ is.
 
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they also were not made by millions of years.



but we always see variations and not new kinds of creatures. also: see my analogy to a self replicating car. do you think that if we had a self replicating molecule it can change into a car?
tiny changes in physical traits of living things that accumulate over very long periods of time make for large changes, and diverse species of living things.
 
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Doveaman

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I assume you are talking about a flagellum ("spinning motor" is a bit of an exaggeration) and yes, humans make similar devices which turn on bearings, but so what? That "spinning" motion is not in itself evidence of design. If the device gives evidence of being manufactured by humans then it may be possible to conclude that it was designed. Otherwise it may not be possible to come to a conclusion. One can't conclude design merely from complexity and functional organization.
The complexity of a motor designed by a human can itself serve as evidence for the complexity of a motor in nature designed by a designer.

You do not need to see the designer of the complex motor in nature, you just need to have evidence that the complexity of a motor requires a designer.
 
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Speedwell

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The complexity of a motor designed by a human can itself serve as evidence for the complexity of a motor in nature designed by a designer.

You do not need to see the designer of nature, you just need to have evidence that the complexity of a motor requires a designer.
On what do you base your assertion that complexity requires a designer?
 
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GenemZ

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On what do you base your assertion that complexity requires a designer?
If it has a function of some sort? After all... Rocks covered with moss do not drive down the highway.

(this argument's longevity is based upon someone's skill and ability to keep denying and defying the obvious).... Its intellectual dodge ball.
 
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Speedwell

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If it has a function of some sort? After all... Rocks covered with moss do not drive down the highway.

(this argument's longevity is based upon someone's skill and ability to keep denying and defying the obvious).... Its intellectual dodge ball.
With two targets. Design can mean purpose or intention. On the other hand, it can also refer to a functional arrangement of components. Design in the first sense is an unfalsifiable proposition and is not directly detectable in an object or phenomenon. Design in the second sense is determinable by observation, but does not necessarily imply design in the first sense. What it boils down to in practice is that intelligent design (that is, purposeful design) is always inferred from evidence of intelligent manufacture, rather than complexity or functionality--tooling marks, use of refined or non-natural materials, etc.
 
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Doveaman

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The bacterial flagella motor being designed by a designer is a plausible, falsifiable theory.

The evidence for this theory is the fact that the complexity of a motor apart from nature requires an intelligent designer.

Scientists often use experiments apart from nature to determine how nature works.

The experiment in this case would be to reproduce or find a complex motor apart from nature that was not designed.

This would falsify the theory that the bacterial flagella motor required a designer.
 
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