the self replicating watch argument

[PsychoSarah]

The evidence for this theory is the fact that the complexity of a motor apart from nature requires an intelligent designer.

Demonstrably not the case, as complexity in and of itself has NOTHING to do with whether or not something is designed. Scissors are very simple tools, but they are designed. Cave systems are very complex, but they aren't designed. Thus, complexity is not a trait exclusive to designed items and cannot be in and of itself used to distinguish what is designed from what isn't designed.

 

[GenemZ]

Demonstrably not the case, as complexity in and of itself has NOTHING to do with whether or not something is designed. Scissors are very simple tools, but they are designed. Cave systems are very complex, but they aren't designed. Thus, complexity is not a trait exclusive to designed items and cannot be in and of itself used to distinguish what is designed from what isn't designed.

How can you know caves do not have a designer?

A wind sock has a designer, but will only reveal its function under the right conditions. Caves were designed to form under the right conditions.

 

[Speedwell]

How can you know caves do not have a designer?

You can't know that. Design as purpose, intelligent design, is an unfalsifiable proposition. It cannot be ruled out.

When examining any object or phenomenon for the presence of intelligent design there are only two possible outcomes:
1. Intelligent design is inferred from evidence of intelligent manufacture.
2. There is no evidence of intelligent manufacture, so no conclusion is possible.

 

[PsychoSarah]

How can you know caves do not have a designer?

A wind sock has a designer, but will only reveal its function under the right conditions. Caves were designed to form under the right conditions.

-_- if everything is designed, then there's no way to distinguish between what is and isn't designed for the lack of contrast, meaning that, since there isn't any way to definitively tell, neither side could claim evidence for or against design. By the way, it's been a while since I've seen you active, I hope you've been well.

An additional contention: designing a system which results in an end product is not the same thing as designing the end product. A person that designs a machine that makes shoes is not also by default the designer of the shoes.

 

[doubtingmerle]

but its just variation. if you want to call it evolution fine. but remember that under that definition even if the bible is true evolution is true.

It's just evolution, fine. If you want to call it variation fine. Whatever you call it, we apparently agree that a flock of finches flew to the Galapagos and there evolved--ahem, variated-- into 6 different genera and 15 different species . Can we not get hung up on the name, and talk about the physical changes that occurred?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Never heard the term a fortiori? Such logic can been used in debates for such things as these.

Since we are dealing with impossibilities to begin with? Why have you been reading even this far?

A better question is, why are folks reading 2500 posts on a thread dedicated to discussing cars that have baby cars?

 

[PsychoSarah]

A better question is, why are folks reading 2500 posts on a thread dedicated to discussing cars that have baby cars?

Bad arguments are my guilty pleasure. That's why I watch videos about "the flat Earth". I already know that it is pure, cheap baloney, but I can't help but eat it up anyways because I love baloney, especially when it is cheap and low quality. Believe it or not, that applies to me in both the literal and figurative sense.

 

[pitabread]

A better question is, why are folks reading 2500 posts on a thread dedicated to discussing cars that have baby cars?

I like seeing which wacky arguments creationists will come up with next.

 

[GenemZ]

-_- if everything is designed, then there's no way to distinguish between what is and isn't designed for the lack of contrast, meaning that, since there isn't any way to definitively tell, neither side could claim evidence for or against design. By the way, it's been a while since I've seen you active, I hope you've been well.

An additional contention: designing a system which results in an end product is not the same thing as designing the end product. A person that designs a machine that makes shoes is not also by default the designer of the shoes.

Rocks have design. What distinguishes slate from granite? Why do we have different kinds of rocks? Why not all one kind? Gems? What about them? Gold was designed to be distinct from copper... and on and on we go.

 

[GenemZ]

I like seeing which wacky arguments creationists will come up with next.

So, that was your design for this thread...

 

[truefiction1]

Demonstrably not the case, as complexity in and of itself has NOTHING to do with whether or not something is designed. Scissors are very simple tools, but they are designed. Cave systems are very complex, but they aren't designed. Thus, complexity is not a trait exclusive to designed items and cannot be in and of itself used to distinguish what is designed from what isn't designed.

The complex cave systems are designed by the Father, through His Logos, and by His Spirit, just like the myrrh streaming from holy images that scientists can't explain, and so just ignore (unless the scientists are people of faith). All that exists is of God, and God's handiwork, whether accomplished by natural or supernatural processes, everywhere.

 

[GenemZ]

The complex cave systems are designed by the Father, through His Logos, and by His Spirit, just like the myrrh streaming from holy images that scientists can't explain, and so just ignore (unless the scientists are people of faith). All that exists is of God, and God's handiwork, whether accomplished by natural or supernatural processes, everywhere.

The Bible tells us not to expect more from the unbeliever than what we see.

 

[truefiction1]

The Bible tells us not to expect more from the unbeliever than what we see.

Thanks. I don't expect more from them than what I see; only as much as what I see, or even only a small fraction thereof, if that's all they're capable of.

 

[GenemZ]

Thanks. I don't expect more from them than what I see; only as much as what I see, or even only a small fraction thereof, if that's all they're capable of.

Remember... you were saved by grace. We all are saved that way. What ever their issues are, its really between themselves and God... We just get the blow by.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;
and I will raise him up on the last day." (Jn 6:44)​

Unbelievers who remain so, rejected God's drawing. Not us.

What we experience from them is only a reflection of the reality.

 

[truefiction1]

Remember... you were saved by grace. We all are saved that way. What ever their issues are, its really between themselves and God... We just get the blow by.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;
and I will raise him up on the last day." (Jn 6:44)​

Unbelievers who remain so, rejected God's drawing. Not us.

What we experience from them is only a reflection of the reality.

That's pretty much what I'd conveyed in post# 3521, as follows:

"Jesus Christ, the single most influential man ever, taught that "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: ..." (John 6:44)

That is the problem. Our Father gives, by His Holy Spirit, some people the ability to hear and to see what is irrefutable Truth. These people who are drawn are the same who hate and repent of evil. If anyone doesn't want to repent of all evil, they can stay hidden in the darkness until death comes upon them, and then they will know that they loved the darkness because their deeds were evil. The love of the Father is therefor not in them. (John 3:19)

I have already given the proofs that I have experienced and witnessed. These weren't good enough and will never be good enough, because they are being disbelieved, ignored, or otherwise simply forgotten about, because that's how the "darkness" operates. I could feed five thousand men, not counting their women and children, with a few loaves of bread and a couple of fish, and afterwards gather up 12 bushel baskets full of food fragments after all those thousands of people ate their fill, and you could be there and the truth would still elude you, somehow, just like it did the disciples of Jesus, who had been there to see Jesus' miracle of the loaves and fish, yet still did not know that He had all the power of God and was going to raise Himself from the dead after being crucified, just as He foretold He would do.

The disciples of Jesus couldn't fully know Him until they had received the power of the Holy Spirit, after His Resurrection and Ascension. Then they knew full well Who Jesus Christ is."

 

[GenemZ]

That's pretty much what I'd conveyed in post# 3521, as follows:

"Jesus Christ, the single most influential man ever, taught that "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: ..." (John 6:44)

Yet... God draws all men. Not only those who believe.

When we believe in Jesus Christ, our believing is the evidence and the result of having been drawn by God successfully unto completion. Unbelievers have been drawn too... They just stopped the process with their negativity and denials towards God. Now Christians witness to that attitude God received in places like here.

That is the problem. Our Father gives, by His Holy Spirit, some people the ability to hear and to see what is irrefutable Truth. These people who are drawn are the same who hate and repent of evil. If anyone doesn't want to repent of all evil, they can stay hidden in the darkness until death comes upon them, and then they will know that they loved the darkness because their deeds were evil. The love of the Father is therefor not in them. (John 3:19)

I have already given the proofs that I have experienced and witnessed. These weren't good enough and will never be good enough, because they are being disbelieved, ignored, or otherwise simply forgotten about, because that's how the "darkness" operates. I could feed five thousand men, not counting their women and children, with a few loaves of bread and a couple of fish, and afterwards gather up 12 bushel baskets full of food fragments after all those thousands of people ate their fill, and you could be there and the truth would still elude you, somehow, just like it did the disciples of Jesus, who had been there to see Jesus' miracle of the loaves and fish, yet still did not know that He had all the power of God and was going to raise Himself from the dead after being crucified, just as He foretold He would do.

The disciples of Jesus couldn't fully know Him until they had received the power of the Holy Spirit, after His Resurrection and Ascension. Then they knew full well Who Jesus Christ is."

That was good to read. Thanks.

Yet? Peter knew who Jesus was before the Holy Spirit was given.

“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not
revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven." Mt 16:15-17​

Peter simply could not grasp with any depth and power (that the Holy Spirit provides the believer) to what extent it meant that Jesus was the Son of God. The disciples could not grasp that Jesus was also fully God until after the ascension, after the Holy Spirit was given to all who believed.

 

[truefiction1]

Yet... God draws all men. Not only those who believe.

When we believe in Jesus Christ, our believing is the evidence and the result of having been drawn by God successfully unto completion. Unbelievers have been drawn too... They just stopped the process with their negativity and denials towards God. Now Christians witness to that attitude God received in places like here.



That was good to read. Thanks.

Yet? Peter knew who Jesus was before the Holy Spirit was given.

“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not
revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven." Mt 16:15-17​

Peter simply could not grasp with any depth and power (that the Holy Spirit provides the believer) to what extent it meant that Jesus was the Son of God. The disciples could not grasp that Jesus was also fully God until after the ascension, after the Holy Spirit was given to all who believed.

I totally agree with what was said here about Peter. I would only add that prior to Pentecost, Peter did have the grace of the Holy Spirit to a degree, which is why He could answer and say that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God. Knowing it fully, to the extent that Peter would willingly endure being crucified (upside down) due his testimony of Christ, was the result of being in the fullness of the Holy Spirit following the outpouring at Pentecost.

I think there are some in here who are still being called, or in the process thereof, even if they currently like to make arguments against belief. I spent the larger part of my adult life as an unbeliever and exuding the same kind of poison channeling through dark minds from sin hardened hearts as we have in here. Some here may enter into the Kingdom of Heaven before I do.

 

[GenemZ]

I totally agree with what was said here about Peter. I would only add that prior to Pentecost, Peter did have the grace of the Holy Spirit to a degree, which is why He could answer and say that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God. Knowing it fully, to the extent that Peter would willingly endure being crucified (upside down) due his testimony of Christ, was the result of being in the fullness of the Holy Spirit following the outpouring at Pentecost.

I think there are some in here who are still being called, or in the process thereof, even if they currently like to make arguments against belief. I spent the larger part of my adult life as an unbeliever and exuding the same kind of poison channeling through dark minds from sin hardened hearts as we have in here. Some here may enter into the Kingdom of Heaven before I do.

True...

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Never heard the term a fortiori? Such logic can been used in debates for such things as these.

And there's another indication that you don't have a solid grasp of language. I suspect you don't really understand what a fortiori means - either that or you don't understand "impossible"

 

[GenemZ]

And there's another indication that you don't have a solid grasp of language. I suspect you don't really understand what a fortiori means - either that or you don't understand "impossible"

.. what's more impossible?

An inorganic watch replicating itself?

Or, an inorganic watch suddenly becoming a living organism?

They are equally impossible... (that was the answer). Both impossible.And, that was the point.

Now, to get you off your jag? Seems impossible.