the self replicating watch argument

[doubtingmerle]

can you give one instance? thanks.

The Galapagos finches.

 

[PsychoSarah]

If you move towards God with repentance, God will give you, or else allow you to experience unambiguous evidences of His presence.

As if I have never done this before. The answer is no, this is not what consistently happens, try an explanation that doesn't assume I have/haven't done something.

If you are a seeker, then have you sought information about my avatar (The Iveron Icon of the Theotokos)?

Yes, many miracles are attributed to it, and none confirmed. Lots of objects like that exist for all of the world's religions.

Maybe you haven't been seeking in the right places?

Plausible, since no one agrees on what the "right" places are.

Maybe you want to seek in the right places -- maybe you don't want to seek in the right places.

Presuming what I want once again. I absolutely want to believe, I know I don't want to waste my time seeking in the wrong places, thus I would never willfully seek in the wrong places.

Maybe you would deny it even if someone rose from the dead

-_- unless it was some sort of zombie virus situation, I'd never perceive that as anything but a miracle.

, because some part of you isn't being totally honest about what your real desire is.

How do you expect to help anyone convert if you are going to constantly question their desire to believe? I know nothing better than myself, and have no motivation to lie to myself. If I was willing to just lie to myself, I wouldn't feel the need to seek at all.

I don't know. I sought, by asking Christ's most pure mother to pray to her Son that I be given some sign, if possible, that I might be able to believe, and got irrefutable answers shortly afterwards.

In the form of what?

I can tell you're not an incapable person in spiritual matters, and so I have to figure that if you seek God with your whole being, with prayer and repentance, then God will certainly answer you as well.

I've been given that empty reassurance so many times that it has lost all meaning.

Also, all things happen according to God's time, not ours, necessarily. Do you suppose it's mere coincidence that you encountered me with my seemingly inconsiderate, ignorant, and uniformed post and became bothered by it enough to respond?

Actually, your entire line of reasoning is so common that this has to be the 20th time at least that I have responded to something analogous, so as much of a coincidence as getting water dripped on my head from the leaves of trees a few hours after it has rained. It happens from time to time.

I'm sure there are tons of posts like this that appear on this website that I haven't responded to.

A chance meeting in an online forum?

You mean how I met most of my friends, as well as my fiance? Happens.

Or Divine intervention due to your having sought the Truth with tears, because you are ultimately meant to be with Him? Heaven knows.

-_- unless you have something different to offer from everyone else that has spoken the same lines, probably not.

 

[truefiction1]

can you give one instance? thanks.

The very construction of our brains, which have certain areas identical to the regions within the brains of both other mammals, as well as reptiles, point to a common ancestry with a multitude of divergences leading to the great diversity of creatures in existence now. That is just one instance, and the one most obvious to me due to my interest in affective neuroscience.

This has no effect on my faith in the Most Holy Trinity, The Creator of all of these marvelous wonders.

 

[truefiction1]

As if I have never done this before. The answer is no, this is not what consistently happens, try an explanation that doesn't assume I have/haven't done something.


Yes, many miracles are attributed to it, and none confirmed. Lots of objects like that exist for all of the world's religions.


Plausible, since no one agrees on what the "right" places are.


Presuming what I want once again. I absolutely want to believe, I know I don't want to waste my time seeking in the wrong places, thus I would never willfully seek in the wrong places.


-_- unless it was some sort of zombie virus situation, I'd never perceive that as anything but a miracle.


How do you expect to help anyone convert if you are going to constantly question their desire to believe? I know nothing better than myself, and have no motivation to lie to myself. If I was willing to just lie to myself, I wouldn't feel the need to seek at all.


In the form of what?


I've been given that empty reassurance so many times that it has lost all meaning.


Actually, your entire line of reasoning is so common that this has to be the 20th time at least that I have responded to something analogous, so as much of a coincidence as getting water dripped on my head from the leaves of trees a few hours after it has rained. It happens from time to time.

I'm sure there are tons of posts like this that appear on this website that I haven't responded to.


You mean how I met most of my friends, as well as my fiance? Happens.


-_- unless you have something different to offer from everyone else that has spoken the same lines, probably not.

Christ is risen from the dead. It cannot be confirmed, because no matter what, there will be people with the motivation to deny it. But He is risen. He is coming again to judge all of the living and the dead, and His Kingdom will have no end. Confirmation of this is something that each person must receive within themselves. It is personal, and it involves relationship with a personal God. The miracles of both the Iveron icon and the Kardiotissa I have witnessed and experienced for myself. Other things I have experienced too, which cannot be confirmed because although I have personally witnessed and experienced them, they can be easily denied by others who would simply refuse to believe my testimony. For example, I have experienced the genuine existence of a very real, but false clairvoyance (i.e. made possible by demonic activity). I have also experienced incidences of genuine True clairvoyance (i.e. made possible by the Holy Spirit) in certain holy spiritual elders. No doubt, many would simply disregard/disdain my testimony because it doesn't align with their own psychological constructs of reality. What I say isn't aloud to sink in because demons come and take the words away before they can be taken to heart. Yet I know the Truth. You can also know the Truth for yourself, and it will be because of the activity of God's Holy Spirit (the 3rd person of the Holy Trinity). My words won't be heard until there is enough silence in their souls for the words to succeed in entering into their hearts.

 

[pitabread]

For example, I have experienced the genuine existence of a very real, be false clairvoyance (made possible by demonic activity. I have also experience incidences of genuine True clairvoyance (made possible by the Holy Spirit) in certain holy spiritual elders. No doubt, many would simply disregard my testimony because it doesn't align with their own thoughts. What I say isn't aloud to sink in because demons come and take the words away before they can be taken to heart.

Based on my own personal experiences with certain things people attribute to the supernatural, I do think a lot of people have real experiences. It's just a question of the attribution of the cause of those experiences that differ.

 

[truefiction1]

Based on my own personal experiences with certain things people attribute to the supernatural, I do think a lot of people have real experiences. It's just a question of the attribution of the cause of those experiences that differ.

All I can say about that, is that the nature of my supernatural experiences can leave me with no room to doubt the very real existence of intelligent, strictly spiritual entities operating with intention and a purpose. But again, anyone can rule out my experiences either as fraudulent claims or psychotic delusions.

There can be no objective proof of God's sovereignty. There can only be subjective proofs which help to strengthen faith. If there could be objective proof there could be no freewill. One would be forced to believe. Even Satan is permitted the ability to deny the unshakable sovereignty of God, and believe within himself that God is actually less that what God is.

 

[truefiction1]

As if I have never done this before. The answer is no, this is not what consistently happens, try an explanation that doesn't assume I have/haven't done something.

Well, would you have me believe you, or would you have me believe Jesus Christ? (Matthew 7:7-8)

Yes, many miracles are attributed to it, and none confirmed. Lots of objects like that exist for all of the world's religions.

That's not really true (except for the many miracles part). There is nothing like these in any of the world's religions. This is merely an assumption, likely implanted in you by the invisible enemies of your salvation. They are with us now, believe it or not, and ever-so closely monitoring and working to manipulate our thoughts and responses to one another, to accomplish the outcome that will best fulfill their desires.

Plausible, since no one agrees on what the "right" places are.

God knows what the "right" places are, and brings His children home to them. It doesn't matter what anyone "agrees" on.

Presuming what I want once again. I absolutely want to believe, I know I don't want to waste my time seeking in the wrong places, thus I would never willfully seek in the wrong places.

I'm not presuming anything. I said "maybe" and I meant "maybe" because I really don't know, and am leaving all things open for the sake of considering all possibilities. I'm not a Spirit filled spiritual guide with secret knowledge about you supplied to me by God. I'm just a sinner on an internet forum. I honestly don't know.

 

[truefiction1]

-_- unless it was some sort of zombie virus situation, I'd never perceive that as anything but a miracle.

Christ raised Jairus' daughter from the dead, He raised from death the only son of a grieving widow, He called Lazarus back from the dead after he had rotted 4 days in his tomb, and Christ Himself rose up on the third day after His own death by crucifixion. These miracles happened. Why don't you believe? Is it because you need to see for yourself, Like Thomas? That's understandable and okay. I needed a sign too. We live in a time and place where if it weren't for God's mercy in giving us signs sometimes, belief in Christ might altogether disappear from the world.

How do you expect to help anyone convert if you are going to constantly question their desire to believe? I know nothing better than myself, and have no motivation to lie to myself. If I was willing to just lie to myself, I wouldn't feel the need to seek at all.

I'm not constantly questioning your desire to believe. I don't know the ways in which God is working in you. Every person's walk is uniquely their own.

In the form of what?

First, in the form of a visitation of the Iveron icon to a small Orthodox mission parish located quite near to my residence , which I was invited by an acquaintance to come to. The icon streams myrrh, after the myrrh inexplicably forms out of nowhere on the painted surface of the icon. You can literally watch it appear where it did not exist before. Then, there was a certain visit I had made, alone, to my deceased father's grave. I had been traveling out of state on business, alone, and never mentioned to anyone that I had visited that cemetery where my father is buried. While I was at the grave-site, I was contemplating and pondering certain things to myself, regarding my father. About a week passed, and a psychic, whom I had not even asked, told me that my long deceased father told her that he was there with me when I was at the cemetery, and then she proceeded to answer all of the inquiries I'd silently made within myself while at his burial site. I don't believe that my father informed this psychic, who lives 4 hours away from that cemetery, about my otherwise completely unknown/unknowable visit to my father's grave. I don't believe my father provided her with the answers to my unspoken questions. It was an evil spirit who gave her this. They are watching, and they are working together, and they are very, very real. God allowed me to be approached by the evil spirit through the psychic in this way as a gift that would serve to help my weak faith in His existence (I'm a former atheist). There's no way this woman could have known any of these things unless someone told her, and who told her? Not me, and I was the only human alive who was in the cemetery at that time, and who can know what I had been thinking and feeling in those private moments?

There are many other things, too numerous for me to write about here.

I've been given that empty reassurance so many times that it has lost all meaning.

But it's not empty assurance. It's a promise made by Christ Himself. I'm not asking anyone to believe me. If we were to believe anyone, it would most certainly be incarnate Word of the Father (again, see Matthew 7:7-8).

Actually, your entire line of reasoning is so common that this has to be the 20th time at least that I have responded to something analogous, so as much of a coincidence as getting water dripped on my head from the leaves of trees a few hours after it has rained. It happens from time to time.

In my experience, it's not likely that anything that ever happens is coincidental. If there is a commonality to the reasoning, it's likely due to the source of it, as there is only One God and one Truth, yet many are called to partake of these.

Interestingly, I would never have found my way into this discussion had I not received a personal invitation, via private message, from someone I don't even know and who doesn't know me. Perhaps we should ask this person why he sent me an invitation to this discussion. So I will: @xianghua , please, if you don't mind, tell me how it is that you saw fit to send a message to my CF inbox that made me aware of this thread? Did you send the same invite to a lot of members, or just to me? Why was I among those picked by you to receive the invitation? Thank you.

I'm sure there are tons of posts like this that appear on this website that I haven't responded to.

Yet you did to this one.

You mean how I met most of my friends, as well as my fiance? Happens.

I'm not convinced that any of those meetings are things that just "happen".

-_- unless you have something different to offer from everyone else that has spoken the same lines, probably not.

I have some plastic baggies full of sweet smelling, myrrh soaked cotton, from another Myrrh gushing icon that resides in Taylor, PA, (the Kardiotyssa) in an Orthodox Christian Church there. I have brothers and sisters in Christ who were about to die from non-treatable, stage four cancer, but after having been anointed with this myrrh and prayed over, were shortly afterward informed by the same doctors who told them they had not long to live, that there was no longer the presence of any cancerous tumors anywhere in their bodies.

I've already said: the signs are abundantly given by our merciful God, because we do need them, especially in these days of rampant, pervasive unbelief that has dug its way to the very foundation of our lives and cultures.

I'm offering to let you have some of this myrrh, if you want it. I'll send it to you. Is this offering not different from the offerings from everyone else that has spoken worthless lines to you? I also offer you a personal invitation to come and see these things for yourself, if you are able to. Bring your friends and your fiance along too, if they will.

 

[xianghua]

The Galapagos finches.

what they evolved into?

 

[xianghua]

The very construction of our brains, which have certain areas identical to the regions within the brains of both other mammals, as well as reptiles, point to a common ancestry with a multitude of divergences leading to the great diversity of creatures in existence now. That is just one instance, and the one most obvious to me due to my interest in affective neuroscience.

This has no effect on my faith in the Most Holy Trinity, The Creator of all of these marvelous wonders.

so this evidence base on common similarity argument. but common similarity can explain by a common designer and not just by common descent. this is why a car is very similar to a truck. but of course that it doesnt prove a common descent of car with a truck.

 

[VirOptimus]

so this evidence base on common similarity argument. but common similarity can explain by a common designer and not just by common descent. this is why a car is very similar to a truck. but of course that it doesnt prove a common descent of car with a truck.

Please stop with your stupid analogy. It doesnt fit and is, quite frankly, just embarassing (for you).

 

[doubtingmerle]

what they evolved into?

Different species of finches.

 

[bhsmte]

Please stop with your stupid analogy. It doesnt fit and is, quite frankly, just embarassing (for you).

I kind of think, he is way past the point of being embarrassed.

 

[pitabread]

but common similarity can explain by a common designer

No it can't. Common design doesn't immediately imply a common designer. It's quite possible to have different designers create things that appear similar.

This is one of the fundamental issues with creationism and/or ID trying to argue for monotheism, since there is absolutely no way to argue that purely from the prospective of design itself.

If life were the result of intelligent design, it could have been the work of a million designers.

 

[truefiction1]

so this evidence base on common similarity argument. but common similarity can explain by a common designer and not just by common descent. this is why a car is very similar to a truck. but of course that it doesnt prove a common descent of car with a truck.

There's great similarity between a car and a truck, and both have evolved in terms of their construction. The first cars and trucks were pulled by horses, now they are propelled by combustion engines. Modern day cars did not get instantaneously created in their current form. They evolved, and they did so from a common ancestry. If mankind can create things over a course of time, by gradual changes in design that make for radical changes over very long periods of time, then why is God not permitted to create in this way also? In Genesis, it is written that God took dirt from the ground and formed the first man out of it. What is not disclosed is the duration of earth years that this process of forming man from the earth took, neither does it disclose any details about the actual process used in the formation of man from the earth. This leads a lot of people to cling to the impression that the creation of man was in a single moment. Looking at the evidence available on earth, however, it appears very likely that the formation of mankind had actually taken many millions of years. The Bible doesn't really say that it didn't take millions of years.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Christ raised Jairus' daughter from the dead, He raised from death the only son of a grieving widow, He called Lazarus back from the dead after he had rotted 4 days in his tomb, and Christ Himself rose up on the third day after His own death by crucifixion. These miracles happened. Why don't you believe?

-_- because there isn't any actual evidence that those miracles did happen, and resurrection is a common theme in mythology. You know for a fact that you have never personally seen anyone resurrected, and that there are no confirmed resurrections in modern times.

Is it because you need to see for yourself, Like Thomas? That's understandable and okay. I needed a sign too. We live in a time and place where if it weren't for God's mercy in giving us signs sometimes, belief in Christ might altogether disappear from the world.

Most people need evidence to believe something.

I'm not constantly questioning your desire to believe. I don't know the ways in which God is working in you. Every person's walk is uniquely their own.

-_- then I have some advice; never even so much as imply a person is not a believer because they don't want it enough or because they haven't tried. It makes you seem callous and presumptuous.

First, in the form of a visitation of the Iveron icon to a small Orthodox mission parish located quite near to my residence , which I was invited by an acquaintance to come to. The icon streams myrrh, after the myrrh inexplicably forms out of nowhere on the painted surface of the icon.

-_- these have been known to be hoaxes for well over a decade (plural, because there are quite a few of them). But, I'll give yours the benefit of the doubt and evaluate it as best as I can based on what evidence you can provide.

You can literally watch it appear where it did not exist before.

Common trait of this hoax: people are not allowed very close to the painting, and certainly not allowed to touch it or look at it from the back. Now, I want you to describe exactly how the painting looked, liquid coming out of it as well.

Then, there was a certain visit I had made, alone, to my deceased father's grave. I had been traveling out of state on business, alone, and never mentioned to anyone that I had visited that cemetery where my father is buried. While I was at the grave-site, I was contemplating and pondering certain things to myself, regarding my father. About a week passed, and a psychic, whom I had not even asked, told me that my long deceased father told her that he was there with me when I was at the cemetery, and then she proceeded to answer all of the inquiries I'd silently made within myself while at his burial site. I don't believe that my father informed this psychic, who lives 4 hours away from that cemetery, about my otherwise completely unknown/unknowable visit to my father's grave.

Yeah, you are mentioning NONE of the questions this person answered, nor acknowledging the possibility of a cold reading. Also, this is a personal experience you have no recordings of, so you are relying on memory alone to recount this.

I don't believe my father provided her with the answers to my unspoken questions. It was an evil spirit who gave her this. They are watching, and they are working together, and they are very, very real. God allowed me to be approached by the evil spirit through the psychic in this way as a gift that would serve to help my weak faith in His existence (I'm a former atheist).

This story is extremely weird when the bible is kept in mind, because, from the words of the bible, prophets that are not of YHWH are inaccurate liars, so this "psychic" shouldn't have been able to be more accurate than the average cold reader.

There's no way this woman could have known any of these things unless someone told her, and who told her? Not me, and I was the only human alive who was in the cemetery at that time, and who can know what I had been thinking and feeling in those private moments?

-_- most people think a lot of the same things in response to the loss of a loved one.

There are many other things, too numerous for me to write about here.

Again, a very personal experience that I can't evaluate because you have no recordings of it and you won't even try to give relevant details. If the psychic gave you a bunch of what your deceased father "felt", it's entirely meaningless. Now, if they told you that, for example, your father secretly buried a safe in his backyard and that the code to it was 7783, and this turned out to be true, that would at least tell me you aren't incredibly gullible. It wouldn't mean that this person was an actual psychic necessarily, but it'd make the information impressive.

But it's not empty assurance. It's a promise made by Christ Himself. I'm not asking anyone to believe me. If we were to believe anyone, it would most certainly be incarnate Word of the Father (again, see Matthew 7:7-8).

-_- I meant assuring me that I will believe one day as long as I keep trying. You don't have any way of knowing if I'll ever believe or not.

In my experience, it's not likely that anything that ever happens is coincidental. If there is a commonality to the reasoning, it's likely due to the source of it, as there is only One God and one Truth, yet many are called to partake of these.

-_- the reasoning is common because a lot of the newcomers on here have had practically no interactions with atheists so they have no idea how atheists actually think. The dumbest argument, I have to say, is that "atheists don't want to believe because they just want to keep sinning". Seriously, it's as illogical as trying to not believe in the police to get away with murder.

Yet you did to this one.

Yup, because it is in a thread I was already active in, and I respond to all posts like it that I see.

I'm not convinced that any of those meetings are things that just "happen".

That implies destiny, which makes free will meaningless. Since free will is the major argument for why YHWH doesn't reveal itself, you are digging a hole for yourself.

I have some plastic baggies full of sweet smelling, myrrh soaked cotton, from another Myrrh gushing icon that resides in Taylor, PA, (the Kardiotyssa) in an Orthodox Christian Church there.

Post a picture of the cotton balls next to a cross made out of shoelaces so I can tell you actually have them.

I have brothers and sisters in Christ who were about to die from non-treatable, stage four cancer, but after having been anointed with this myrrh and prayed over, were shortly afterward informed by the same doctors who told them they had not long to live, that there was no longer the presence of any cancerous tumors anywhere in their bodies.

I only have your word for that, and that alone doesn't mean a whole lot. Also, what cancer can't be treated at all? As a person that just passed their Cancer Biology course, there aren't any I know of that can't be TREATED, at the very least, in a way that lessens the pain. Treatment and cure are not the same thing.

I've already said: the signs are abundantly given by our merciful God, because we do need them, especially in these days of rampant, pervasive unbelief that has dug its way to the very foundation of our lives and cultures.

-_- those ill people were forced to labor in this fallen world for that much longer because their terminal illnesses went away. Exactly what was merciful about that? Furthermore, if this stuff was actually curing people on a regular basis, don't you think I, a person in the medical sciences, would know about it? The answer is simple; this stuff doesn't cure anything. Unless you knew those people extremely well, you have no way of knowing if they lied to you or not. Not about being cured, but about being sick in the first place. I especially wouldn't trust them if they were associated with the church hosting the painting. Furthermore, I cannot recommend that you try to use it to treat a serious illness in good conscience. How about trying to use it to get rid of a mild illness, though? Something that doesn't have to do with inflammation, like a rash, though, because myrrh has anti-inflammatory properties normally Frankincense and myrrh suppress inflammation via regulation of the metabolic profiling and the MAPK signaling pathway

Also, funnily enough, people are researching if it helps cancer patients, so even if those people did have cancer and treated it with myrrh, that might just be a result of properties myrrh happens to have that aren't actually miraculous at all. Obviously, if the painting was actually generating the stuff that would be a miracle. Unfortunately, most churches don't let scientists near the paintings. I wonder why
-_-.

I'm offering to let you have some of this myrrh, if you want it. I'll send it to you.

I'll accept that offer if you provide evidence that you actually have it. I'd rather not reveal my address for nothing. I really hope you take my advice and test the stuff and take a video of it for all to see, because I am sure that you have a finite number of them. Plus, it would really suck if you saved it for when you have a terminal illness and you rely on it for treatment, and it happened to do nothing.

Is this offering not different from the offerings from everyone else that has spoken worthless lines to you?

Aside from the cotton ball offering, you're actually more vague than the average person that claims to have experienced a miracle. Sorry to be blunt, but it's true.

I also offer you a personal invitation to come and see these things for yourself, if you are able to. Bring your friends and your fiance along too, if they will.

Oh, there are tons of these all over the place, so I am sure I'll get an opportunity to observe one for myself at some point.

There's a psychic I know that I've been thinking about how to test lately, since their claimed ability and the nature of what they see makes it very, very difficult to test. I might be posting something in Physical and Life Sciences later.

 

[Kylie]

Christ raised Jairus' daughter from the dead, He raised from death the only son of a grieving widow, He called Lazarus back from the dead after he had rotted 4 days in his tomb, and Christ Himself rose up on the third day after His own death by crucifixion. These miracles happened. Why don't you believe? Is it because you need to see for yourself, Like Thomas? That's understandable and okay. I needed a sign too. We live in a time and place where if it weren't for God's mercy in giving us signs sometimes, belief in Christ might altogether disappear from the world.

Can you name one source for these alleged miracles outside the Bible?

 

[truefiction1]

Can you name one source for these alleged miracles outside the Bible?

Yes. The Holy Tradition of the ancient Orthodox Christian Church, which is the Holy Spirit Himself breathing the Truth into all of God's children. In other words, God Himself witnesses to the Truth of bodily resurrection through ongoing demonstrations of power, visible only to those who have become able to see them. I have already explained this quite succinctly in my first response to what had been written by various participants in this thread.

Quite frankly, if a person does not desire to believe, then they don't have to, because they can simply choose to deprive themselves of the Holy Spirit by subjecting themselves to the passions, which covers the eye of the soul so that all judgment and reasoning can be done in the dark, thereby allowing falsehood to reign within such a person, or such persons. When the light is allowed to shine in the darkness, through repentance against the passions, then the proofs and evidences of God's undeniable presence are easily seen and recognized. Such is the nature of freewill.

 

[truefiction1]

-_- because there isn't any actual evidence that those miracles did happen, and resurrection is a common theme in mythology. You know for a fact that you have never personally seen anyone resurrected, and that there are no confirmed resurrections in modern times.

And how is it that you know that I have never personally been given a vision of the Living, resurrected Christ? Have I told you that I haven't? Now who is doing the assuming? On what foundation is your assumption based upon? The foundation of unbelief in God and in His Christ?

If resurrection is a common theme in mythology, it could be because it is all false, or it could be that God has implanted the idea/desire for it into the collective subconsciousness of all people, because the resurrection is the Truth. I'm able to accept the latter because I'm no longer afflicted with unbelief. I enjoy reading the works of the Joseph Campbell and Otto Rank (The Myth of the Birth and Death of the Hero), and the like, just as much (probably more) than the next guy, and appreciate their insights. But I can still see God when in the Holy Spirit, so I can draw the line between their truth and their errors.

Most people need evidence to believe something.

Yes, but many people expose the falsehood of the footing upon which they justify their unbelief. How? By betraying, in their own arguments, a dual standard when it comes to the evaluation of evidence. On one hand, they refuse to believe the testimony of others regarding miracles that occurred because they have not seen it for themselves, On the other hand, they will be easily led to believe a scientific theory based solely on the written reports/claims of other researchers and study results, simply by giving those study results the benefit of the doubt. We will believe it if we read it in the text book that our professor required for the course, even though we have not, and really cannot (due to time and resource constraints) personally do the research, perform the experiment, or conduct the study with the involvement of our own physical senses. If we were to take the same approach to the learning of science that we were to believing in God, it would go something like this:

Gee, how do I know that those researchers told the truth? How do I know that even if several studies were done, by separate authorities, and they all came to the same conclusion that it wasn't just a secret conspiracy that they all colluded on? How do I know if the scientist interpreted the results correctly? I mean, I wasn't actually there to see it for myself. If I had been, then maybe I too would believe such claims that the basic building block of all biological life forms on this planet is deoxyribonucleic acid. But I wasn't there, and I have never seen this DNA stuff, so how can you blame me for not thinking that I should believe its real? Huh?

Point is, we're human beings and afflicted with passion, so we will take a leap of faith in the direction that our own desire inclines us to go in. It requires a leap of faith regardless of which direction, and that direction is determined by our will. If we used the same approach to science that unbelievers used to religious faith, their wouldn't be any advancement in medicine. Same thing goes if we use that approach to God -- there wouldn't be any faith in Him because all God's miracles would be written of as "unconfirmed". The alleged fossil record has not been confirmed by me. I still believe it's there because it makes good sense to me that it is. Same thing with God: A leap of faith on my part on both counts. I can see fossils in the shale behind the old mill, and I can see God. So, I believe in both.

-_- then I have some advice; never even so much as imply a person is not a believer because they don't want it enough or because they haven't tried. It makes you seem callous and presumptuous.

I don't want to across this way. I do see a problem though, that I'm afraid I have to bring up here: I'm troubled by your defensiveness in the face of the suggestion that you have any culpability in the formation of your personal state of unbelief. Your claim seems to be, basically, that your unbelief is soundly morally defensible because you cannot discover any irrefutable, empirical proof of God, and that all such empirical proof and other supporting evidence points to God not being there, regardless of how much you have tried to believe. Thus, your personal choices have played no part in the creation of your faithlessness and you are therefor entirely justified.
Maybe I am slightly off, but doesn't it seem to you (as it does to me) that you are avoiding the admission that passions (compelling affective states) always come into play whenever a person is evaluating whether or not they should believe in God. I mean, we ask ourselves: "should I believe, or should I not believe", and don't our feelings influence our desire one way or another? the central question for us is "WHAT IS AT STAKE HERE"? If I accept the lot of one having faith in God, what will this mean for my future -- for my one, short life on this earth? If I don't accept the lot of one having faith in God, what will this mean for my future -- for my short life on this earth? What if God is not real? Will I have given up my one and only chance for happiness in this world to a God Who isn't there? What a waste!

Even a behavioral scientist who doesn't believe in God knows better than to suggest, let alone be a proponent the idea that affective motivations don't influence practically every facet of human thinking and behavior, both individual and collective, especially when it comes to belief systems. "Affective" states (including unconscious, instinctual ones)", regardless of how imperceptible or hidden from our awareness these may be, are always at work in us. These play a part in our personal choices with regards to what directions we allow our stream of thoughts take us in and how we will relate to, and act upon those thoughts.

Bottom line is that I can't fully believe you when you swear that you're being more objective than you really are. I wish that none of us would do this, because the underlying cause of this defensiveness is pride. Pride is an evil passion that serves to prevent faith in God. Only by striving to learn genuine, Christlike humility from the Holy Spirit can He pour grace into us so that we can begin to see God as He is. Our pride will compel us to feel and believe that we can acquire the humility of God by our own efforts. But only the Holy Spirit can give it. "Seeking", is merely asking God to help us repent of our love of evil passions so that we can be rid of them by His power. "Seeking" is not defined as looking for empirical proof of God. Once your heart becomes more and more pure, you will see God more and more, and will see how God is present and working miracles -- inside of you and all around you. Seeing is believing.

 

[truefiction1]

-_- these have been known to be hoaxes for well over a decade (plural, because there are quite a few of them). But, I'll give yours the benefit of the doubt and evaluate it as best as I can based on what evidence you can provide.

Thanks for that, and Yeah, some have been hoaxes. Not these though. There's no hidden strings attached. If the surface of the icons are wiped dry, tiny droplets of the myrrh begin form on the surface again, and these eventually become so numerous that they converge into a film that ultimately becomes too thick to be contained on the surface and it runs over the edges of the icon and down onto whatever is below. Cotton is kept beneath the icon to collect the potently fragrant, sweet-smelling myrrh, and given to those who have come to see the icon. The Icon is removed from its stand and taken out into the crowd so that they can hold out there hands and have the myrrh drizzled into their palms. The priest holds the icon upright and tipped slightly sideways so that the oil runs down off the bottom corner. Some people come who have serious illnesses, and they kneel beneath the icon so that the oil runs onto their head while the priests pray over them (as instructed in the Epistle of James). Some (not all) have reported being completely cured. God is the judge of who and why. All we do is pray and accept God's will.

Common trait of this hoax: people are not allowed very close to the painting, and certainly not allowed to touch it or look at it from the back. Now, I want you to describe exactly how the painting looked, liquid coming out of it as well.

As described above, and every time we go, the officiating priest brings the icon around to as many people possible to let the oil fall into their hands. Sometimes, when driving past the Church, the whole interior of the car becomes inundated with the same sweet-smelling fragrance that radiates from the myrrh. Many remark that they had smelled it in their cars. It is truly miraculous what goes on here.

Yeah, you are mentioning NONE of the questions this person answered, nor acknowledging the possibility of a cold reading. Also, this is a personal experience you have no recordings of, so you are relying on memory alone to recount this.

The thoughts had been very personal and private to me, and would reveal aspects of my public life that I have never cared to much about sharing on CF, so I didn't care to get into them any more than you care to disclose your mailing address. But, I'll give more detail:

I do a lot of things without the knowledge of my loved ones, even my wife, because I like to be a private person (a loner) in a lot of ways. When I had to travel to Pittsburgh on behalf of my employer, it was necessary for me to travel through the area that I grew up in. On the way through I decided to stop in the cemetery in Paigeville, where my father and his parents/grandparents are buried. I told no one that I ever went there, not even one, single soul. The cemetery is behind an old Russian Church that barely exists anymore, which is on like an old dirt road that cuts through a field and some woods in the middle of nowhere. I could not have been more isolated or alone when I was there, and that is how I wanted it. The cemetery is over 4 hours away from my current residence.

The Psychic is not a professional who gets paid to give readings. She is a patient access administrator at the local hospital who works with my wife and is a friend of hers. She is convinced that she receives communications from deceased loved ones that she is supposed to share with their living relatives. She told my wife to tell me, that my father wanted me to know that when I was at the cemetery recently, that he was there with me, and then she said things that only someone who knew both my father and myself very intimately could know. She related to me, through my wife, all of the intimate details of the conversation that I thought I was having with myself while standing at the grave, and then she provided me with the responses to that one-sided (at the time) conversation that my father needed to give me. As soon as I had heard my wife say these things, I instantly knew (beyond any doubt) that there had to have been someone with me at that grave, and because of my experience and knowledge of spiritual warfare, I'm certain it was an evil spirit. Many other Orthodox Christians tell of similar experiences. I might not believe them had I not experienced it for myself.