Diamond7

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The remnant from the corrupt shepherds in Israel? Why would you think that has any relation to the heirs of the kingdom?
Whom did Jesus promise the kingdom?
Zechariah 13:9 is part of a prophetic passage in the book of Zechariah, and the verse is indeed a metaphorical description of refining and testing God's people. The context primarily pertains to a remnant of the people of Israel who will go through purification and testing, ultimately recognizing God as their own.

Have you been to Bible College? Because they do teach us how to apply the Bible and what we call the old testament to our lives today. There are rules for Bible interpretation. "Hermeneutical Principles" or "Hermeneutical Guidelines." Hermeneutics is the field of study that focuses on the theory and methodology of interpreting and understanding written texts, particularly ancient or religious texts like the Bible. These principles guide the process of interpreting and understanding the meaning of biblical passages in their historical, cultural, and linguistic contexts.

If you do not want to look this up I will copy it here.

The Old Testament holds significant relevance and application for Christians today, despite living under the New Covenant established through Jesus Christ. Here's how the Old Testament applies to Christians in the present day:
  1. Understanding God's Character and His Plan: The Old Testament reveals God's character, attributes, and His redemptive plan for humanity. It shows His faithfulness, justice, mercy, and love, providing a foundational understanding of who God is and how He interacts with His creation.
  2. Prophecies and Messianic Fulfillment: The Old Testament contains numerous prophecies concerning the Messiah (Christ), many of which were fulfilled in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Understanding these prophecies strengthens Christian faith and affirms Jesus as the long-awaited Savior.
  3. Moral and Ethical Guidance: The moral and ethical teachings found in the Old Testament are still relevant today. Principles such as love, justice, compassion, and integrity are emphasized and further expounded upon in the New Testament. The Old Testament provides a moral framework that aligns with Jesus' teachings.
  4. Examples of Faith and Obedience: The lives of individuals in the Old Testament, like Abraham, Moses, David, and many others, serve as examples of faith, obedience, and perseverance. Christians can draw inspiration from their stories and apply their faithfulness in their own journeys.
  5. Wisdom Literature: Books like Proverbs, Psalms, Ecclesiastes, and Job offer wisdom, guidance, comfort, and insights into navigating life's challenges, relationships, and spiritual growth.
  6. Historical and Cultural Understanding: Studying the historical and cultural context of the Old Testament helps Christians grasp the background of Jesus' teachings and the early Christian Church. It deepens the understanding of the biblical narratives.
  7. Acknowledging Sin and Redemption: The Old Testament showcases the reality of human sin and God's pursuit of reconciliation. It underscores the need for salvation, highlighting Jesus' role as the ultimate redeemer.
  8. Fulfillment of the Law and Prophecy: Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament law and prophecies, providing a bridge between the Old and New Covenants. His teachings build upon the foundational principles of the Old Testament while providing a new understanding of God's grace.
In summary, the Old Testament is foundational to Christianity, providing understanding of God, His plan, moral guidance, prophecies, and examples of faith. It enriches the Christian faith, complements the New Testament, and helps believers grow spiritually and live out their faith in Christ.

Zechariah 13:9 (NIV) says, "This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are my people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’”

While this verse originally addresses a specific context and the remnant of Israel, it holds broader spiritual principles that can be applied to Christians today:

  1. Spiritual Refinement and Testing: The imagery of refining silver and testing gold conveys the process of spiritual refinement. In our Christian journey, God allows us to go through trials and challenges to refine our faith, character, and dedication to Him. These trials, though difficult, ultimately strengthen and purify our relationship with God.
  2. Calling on God and His Response: The verse emphasizes calling on God's name, indicating the importance of prayer and communication with God. As believers, we are encouraged to seek God through prayer, and He promises to answer and acknowledge us as His own.
  3. Acknowledging God as Our Lord: Just as the verse emphasizes the people acknowledging the Lord as their God, we, too, are called to recognize God's sovereignty in our lives. We affirm our faith by acknowledging God as our Lord and committing ourselves to His ways.
  4. Identity as God's People: When we call on God and acknowledge Him, we affirm our identity as His people. We belong to God's family through faith in Jesus Christ, and this verse reminds us of our chosen and cherished status as His children.
  5. Applying God's Word: The process of refining and testing aligns with our journey of applying God's Word in our lives. The Bible acts as a refining fire, revealing truths, guiding our actions, and helping us navigate life's challenges.
In essence, Zechariah 13:9 prompts us to persevere through trials, stay connected to God through prayer and seeking Him, affirm our identity as God's people, and apply the teachings of the Bible as a refining influence in our lives. It invites us to deepen our relationship with God and embrace our role as His beloved and refined children.
 
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CoreyD

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Zechariah 13:9 is part of a prophetic passage in the book of Zechariah, and the verse is indeed a metaphorical description of refining and testing God's people. The context primarily pertains to a remnant of the people of Israel who will go through purification and testing, ultimately recognizing God as their own.

Have you been to Bible College? Because they do teach us how to apply the Bible and what we call the old testament to our lives today. There are rules for Bible interpretation. "Hermeneutical Principles" or "Hermeneutical Guidelines." Hermeneutics is the field of study that focuses on the theory and methodology of interpreting and understanding written texts, particularly ancient or religious texts like the Bible. These principles guide the process of interpreting and understanding the meaning of biblical passages in their historical, cultural, and linguistic contexts.
If the College has helped you spiritually, I am glad for you.
Do you see an advantage of Bible College over this education - John 6:45? What, may I ask?

If you do not want to look this up I will copy it here.
Much appreciated. Thanks.

The Old Testament holds significant relevance and application for Christians today, despite living under the New Covenant established through Jesus Christ.
Just a question.
Don't they teach students at Bible College, that the Hebrew scriptures, are not the "Old Testament", as they are traditionally referred?

Is it taught there that the rendering of 2 Corinthians 3:14 in a few translation, including the KJV is misleading?
In the same context, Paul also speaks of the “reading of the old covenant” and remarks that “Moses is read”; these are references to the practice of reading aloud from the Torah in synagogue services:​
For till the present day, the same veil remains over the reading aloud of the old covenant, and it is not uncovered because it is [first] removed in Christ. But till today, whenever Moses is read, a veil is placed on their hearts (2 Corinthians 3:14–15).​
Paul is drawing a polemical contrast between the old and the new covenant. The old covenant is represented by the Torah, for which he uses “Moses” as a metonym. A similar contrast of the two covenants appears in the Letter to the Galatians (4:21–31), where Paul interprets the sons of Abraham, one of whom he had by a slave woman, the other by a free woman, as two “covenants,” one of which leads to servitude, the other to freedom.​

Some see this as a small matter. How do you feel about it?

Here's how the Old Testament applies to Christians in the present day:
  1. Understanding God's Character and His Plan: The Old Testament reveals God's character, attributes, and His redemptive plan for humanity. It shows His faithfulness, justice, mercy, and love, providing a foundational understanding of who God is and how He interacts with His creation.
Don't laugh at me.
I actually responded to each of these, but did not realized I got logged out, and I lost every line I typed. LOL at myself.
So I am not going to type that over. I'll just sum up what I said. Millions know all of this, and never attended Bible College.

Every point listed below is good, and is already in Christian literature, and taught in congregations worldwide, as a result of just studying the Bible.
The Bible even says, what you were taught at College. 1 Corinthians 10:6; Hebrews 11:1-40;

  1. Prophecies and Messianic Fulfillment: The Old Testament contains numerous prophecies concerning the Messiah (Christ), many of which were fulfilled in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Understanding these prophecies strengthens Christian faith and affirms Jesus as the long-awaited Savior.
  2. Moral and Ethical Guidance: The moral and ethical teachings found in the Old Testament are still relevant today. Principles such as love, justice, compassion, and integrity are emphasized and further expounded upon in the New Testament. The Old Testament provides a moral framework that aligns with Jesus' teachings.
  3. Examples of Faith and Obedience: The lives of individuals in the Old Testament, like Abraham, Moses, David, and many others, serve as examples of faith, obedience, and perseverance. Christians can draw inspiration from their stories and apply their faithfulness in their own journeys.
  4. Wisdom Literature: Books like Proverbs, Psalms, Ecclesiastes, and Job offer wisdom, guidance, comfort, and insights into navigating life's challenges, relationships, and spiritual growth.
  5. Historical and Cultural Understanding: Studying the historical and cultural context of the Old Testament helps Christians grasp the background of Jesus' teachings and the early Christian Church. It deepens the understanding of the biblical narratives.
  6. Acknowledging Sin and Redemption: The Old Testament showcases the reality of human sin and God's pursuit of reconciliation. It underscores the need for salvation, highlighting Jesus' role as the ultimate redeemer.
  7. Fulfillment of the Law and Prophecy: Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament law and prophecies, providing a bridge between the Old and New Covenants. His teachings build upon the foundational principles of the Old Testament while providing a new understanding of God's grace.
In summary, the Old Testament is foundational to Christianity, providing understanding of God, His plan, moral guidance, prophecies, and examples of faith. It enriches the Christian faith, complements the New Testament, and helps believers grow spiritually and live out their faith in Christ.
The Hebrew scriptures do teach us a lot about God, but isn't Jesus the foundation of Christianity?

Zechariah 13:9 (NIV) says, "This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are my people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’”

While this verse originally addresses a specific context and the remnant of Israel, it holds broader spiritual principles that can be applied to Christians today:

  1. Spiritual Refinement and Testing: The imagery of refining silver and testing gold conveys the process of spiritual refinement. In our Christian journey, God allows us to go through trials and challenges to refine our faith, character, and dedication to Him. These trials, though difficult, ultimately strengthen and purify our relationship with God.
  2. Calling on God and His Response: The verse emphasizes calling on God's name, indicating the importance of prayer and communication with God. As believers, we are encouraged to seek God through prayer, and He promises to answer and acknowledge us as His own.
  3. Acknowledging God as Our Lord: Just as the verse emphasizes the people acknowledging the Lord as their God, we, too, are called to recognize God's sovereignty in our lives. We affirm our faith by acknowledging God as our Lord and committing ourselves to His ways.
  4. Identity as God's People: When we call on God and acknowledge Him, we affirm our identity as His people. We belong to God's family through faith in Jesus Christ, and this verse reminds us of our chosen and cherished status as His children.
  5. Applying God's Word: The process of refining and testing aligns with our journey of applying God's Word in our lives. The Bible acts as a refining fire, revealing truths, guiding our actions, and helping us navigate life's challenges.
In essence, Zechariah 13:9 prompts us to persevere through trials, stay connected to God through prayer and seeking Him, affirm our identity as God's people, and apply the teachings of the Bible as a refining influence in our lives. It invites us to deepen our relationship with God and embrace our role as His beloved and refined children.
Of course. I'm glad you have these things in mind. That's all very good. Excellent.
However, we were discussing the few righteous persons who go to heaven, for the purpose of ruling, and being priests of the multitude of righteous who will live on, and make up the new earth?
 
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Diamond7

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Do you see an advantage of Bible College over this education - John 6:45? What, may I ask?
45 It is written in the prophets, m‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ n
Therefore everyone who 9has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

Most people today would say you are crazy to claim you are taught by God. But to answer your question most pastors with an associate degree can do a good job of preaching a sermon. But they are not good when it comes to council people with their problems. The pastors from the main line denominations that require a lot more training are much better in that area.

I took four teacher training classes and if I took two more I could be certified to be a Sunday School Superintendent at any church in America. My main objective was to improve my communication skills. Everyone should be ready to give a report of what God is doing in their life so people can compare that with what God is showing them and doing in their life.

Are you really suggesting that pastors and people in ministry should not go to Bible College? It is very common for people that go to the State College go to the Bible college for their elective classes. I use to attend a Bible study almost every day of the week. Usually just for the fellowship and the opportunity to get out and talk to people. Still it was interesting what God was doing in the life of the pastor who taught the study.

I told my son that it was very important for him to develop his communication skills as much as he is able to.
 
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CoreyD

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Are you really suggesting that pastors and people in ministry should not go to Bible College? It is very common for people that go to the State College go to the Bible college for their elective classes. I use to attend a Bible study almost every day of the week. Usually just for the fellowship and the opportunity to get out and talk to people. Still it was interesting what God was doing in the life of the pastor who taught the study.
I don't normally suggest what people do.
I just show them what the Bible says - which is God's view, and let them decide for themselves what they will do.
What I can tell you, is that none of Jesus followers went to and Bible Colleges, but they were all educated in the congregation schools.
Moreover, God does not pay much attention to persons who boast about their intellectual achievements. He actually isn't interested in that.

Let me show you.
Acts 4:13
When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

1 Corinthians 1:26, 27
Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.
But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise...

I like the attitude of the man that was blind from birth - the one Jesus healed.
I like how he dealt with the intellectuals, who looked down on the ordinary people.
John 9:30-34

Jesus value that man.
When Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, He found the man and said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” John 9:35
“Who is He, Sir?” he replied. “Tell me so that I may believe in Him.” John 9:36

That man was humble - child-like.
We can learn from him.
 
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Diamond7

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What I can tell you, is that none of Jesus followers went to and Bible Colleges
Paul did and the disciples had Jesus as their teacher. With the Hasidic it is a little different but with Kabballah people suppose to study the Bible for 40 years before they begin their study of Kabballah. I do understand what you are saying about being taught by God. In the beginning I just read the Bible and I did not want anyone telling me what the Bible says. I just wanted the Holy Spirit to be my guide and my teacher.

We can do both. We do not have to do one or the other exclusively.
 
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CoreyD

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Paul did and the disciples had Jesus as their teacher. With the Hasidic it is a little different but with Kabballah people suppose to study the Bible for 40 years before they begin their study of Kabballah. I do understand what you are saying about being taught by God. In the beginning I just read the Bible and I did not want anyone telling me what the Bible says. I just wanted the Holy Spirit to be my guide and my teacher.

We can do both. We do not have to do one or the other exclusively.
Paul was not a Christian before his schooling. Similar to those who were politicians, idol worshipers, homosexuals, and so forth, before converting.
We can't use what someone did in their past, before converting, to justify Christians doing it. Would you agree?
 
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sparow

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The lake of fire is the second death
Revelation 20:14

King James Bible
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
New King James Version
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them
Revelation 20:13

King James Bible
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
New King James Version
The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.


The living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing
Ecclesiastes 9:5

New King James Version
For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.


There is no activity, planning, knowledge, or wisdom in Sheol - the grave - where you are going
Ecclesiastes 9:10

New King James Version
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.

New American Standard Bible
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity, planning, knowledge, or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.


Through Adam all die
1 Corinthians 15:22

New King James Version
For as in Adam all die...


Romans 5:12

New King James Version
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned


Anyone not found written in the Book of Life is cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death
Revelation 20:9-15

New King James Version
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.




Summary
The first death leaves no one a choice. Through Adam, all persons are dying.

scary-scene-with-grim-reaper-cemetery_808092-2813.jpg



With the second death, we have a choice - Make certain our names are found written in the book of life.

Revelation 20:12
New King James Version
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

Did you know?
Hell (Hades / Sheol) is a place of eternal torment.

What are the books of life?
The books will be in heaven with God; therefore not literal. When we die our spirit or whatever came from God returns to God, Ecc. 12:7, presumably with a record of our life, after judgement our record and Judgement is placed in a (book).
 
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CoreyD

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The books will be in heaven with God; therefore not literal.
I haven't heard that before. How do you know that?

When we die our spirit or whatever came from God returns to God, Ecc. 12:7, presumably with a record of our life, after judgement our record and Judgement is placed in a (book).
I agree, with the part about Ecclesiastes 12:7.
Doesn't Revelation say that not everyone record goes into the book?
 
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Diamond7

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prI haven't heard that before. How do you know that?
Ezekiel 3:1 "Ezekiel 3:1 “Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel. “

The Bible uses the word roll or scroll. Books did not come out until the printing press around 500 years ago.
 
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sparow

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I heard that before. How do you know that?
Othewise who would write in the books, the Pope maybe.
I agree, with the part about Ecclesiastes 12:7.
Doesn't Revelation say that not everyone record goes into the book?
In my opinion the only ones who get their name in the book of life are ones who are in covenant with God. I recall the Bible talks about those who have their names written in the book not about those who do not. In ther message to the seventh church, it mentions that some need a new name; I assume that means starting from scratch.
 
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sparow

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The angels record what we have done. Revelation 20:12 "The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."
For the Bible to be true there has to be an angelic realm, but we do not know what an angel is, or whether they call nonphysical methods books. Books is likely a transliteration.
 
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CoreyD

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Ezekiel 3:1 "Ezekiel 3:1 “Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel. “

The Bible uses the word roll or scroll. Books did not come out until the printing press around 500 years ago.
Could these books be words from God, that people must be taught - like how we have the Bible today to teach us God's way?
Jeremiah 15:16
Your words were found, and I ate them. Your words became my joy and my heart’s delight. For I bear Your name, O LORD God of Hosts.

Psalms 119:103
How sweet are your words to my taste, sweeter than honey to my mouth!

Why I think that makes more sense, is due to the fact that the Bible we have today, is for our time, but during the millennial rule, books from the prophets will be fulfilled. 95-99% of Revelation would be fulfilled.

Remember the Israelites had the Law of Moses, and the books of the prophets, but when Jesus came, and taught, they then had Jesus teachings, which were expounded by his apostles, who penned the things that Christians would live by. They not being under the Mosaic Law.

So, I think the situation will be similar during the 1,000 year reign of Christ.
There will be new things to learn and understand. So, I believe those books, or scrolls would contain God's requirements for living during the 1,000 years.

1,000 years of peace, without Satan around. :clap:
 
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CoreyD

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The angels record what we have done. Revelation 20:12 "The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."
Revelation 20:12 "The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."
Right. So, judged on what they had done as recorded in the books. In other words, just as Jesus said, the 'the word that I have spoken, is what will judge him'.
So, what is recorded in the books is the basis for judgment.
Remember, there is another book - the book of life. This is where your records are kept. Not the books.

So based on what you do, as recorded in the books, you name either goes into, and remains in the book of life, or not.
 
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CoreyD

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Othewise who would write in the books, the Pope maybe.
Or, Jesus' follower. Just as Peter, James and John did.
The "OT" had 66 books, but the "NT" had 27 books. That's a 59% reduction.
So, if new books are written, the percent reduction from 27, will be much larger, and we likely would end up with less than 10 book.
In fact, the rules may be be very simple, and few in number, since we already have the principles from the "OT", and the directives on Godly living in the "NT".

In my opinion the only ones who get their name in the book of life are ones who are in covenant with God. I recall the Bible talks about those who have their names written in the book not about those who do not. In ther message to the seventh church, it mentions that some need a new name; I assume that means starting from scratch.
Which verse are you referring to?
 
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sparow

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Or, Jesus' follower. Just as Peter, James and John did.
The "OT" had 66 books, but the "NT" had 27 books. That's a 59% reduction.
So, if new books are written, the percent reduction from 27, will be much larger, and we likely would end up with less than 10 book.
In fact, the rules may be be very simple, and few in number, since we already have the principles from the "OT", and the directives on Godly living in the "NT".


Which verse are you referring to?
You seem to have missed the context of our discussion being the Book of life and associated books; who writes names in it and when.

I rely on old memories which are increasingly letting me down; I am not able to find the verse. I do believe though, that if or when a person's name is struck from the book of life, that person could renew the covenant, receive a new name, and start again from scratch, time prevailing.
 
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CoreyD

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You seem to have missed the context of our discussion being the Book of life and associated books; who writes names in it and when.
Wasn't it Revelation 20:12?
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.​

Names are not written in the books.
Read it from here. This is the Greek rendered to English, word for word.
And were judged the dead out of the things having been written in the books according to the deeds of them.​

So if we word it as we speak today, it would read:
And the dead were judged out of the things that were written in the books, according to the deeds of them [the dead].​
Or And the dead were judged, according to the deeds of them, out of the things that were written in the books.​

So, the dead are judged based on what they do according to what is written in the books.
In other words, the things written in the books are not the deeds they performed, but are the things they need to do.

I understand why that would take some time for most of us to grasp.
Most of us don't understand what the purpose of the 1,000 year rule of Christ is.

The 1,000 year rule of Christ is for the purpose of making the dead alive.
The dead - as in, not physically dead, but as Revelation 20:5 says (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)
The reason it's put in brackets, is because it doesn't pertain to They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:4, 5

Revelation 20:12 reads:
I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books.​

These dead, are resurrected ones, who will come to life (not physically) after the 1,000 years have ended, only if they do according to the things written in the books. If they are obedient, in other words.
The 1,000 years allow persons to learn God's way, and do it, without Satan around to mislead them.
If they learn and obey, they 'come to life' - meet God's standards of perfection.

When the Devil is loosed, their loyalty is tested.
If they pass that test, their names remain written in the book of life, so that when this happens -
Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10, And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15​
They will be safe, and carry on living into all eternity.

I know this can take some time getting used to, since it erases the idea that people are brought back to life to line up before a throne, and some angel stands with a book in his hand and calls names, and read words akin to "Samuel Jack Jacobs, you have been a naughty boy. You lied, cheated, etc. etc. Therefore you are sentenced to eternal torment, and you will burn and burn and burn for the remainder of your miserable life."
Then two angels grab him by the neck and take him away. :D

That's quite different to what the Bible is telling us, but we have been taught that idea for so long, it may take time getting used to something new.
It just requires understanding the overall plan of God.
Once we get that, we realize, it is really simple. Paradise lost. Paradise regained.
In other words, God has a purpose which he implemented from the beginning. That purpose still stands although Satan tried to stop it. That purpose will be realized.

I rely on old memories which are increasingly letting me down; I am not able to find the verse. I do believe though, that if or when a person's name is struck from the book of life, that person could renew the covenant, receive a new name, and start again from scratch, time prevailing.
I think you mean Revelation 3:5
The book of life, is the book where names of faithful are recorded. Philippians 4:3
The books that were opened, however, is not where the recordings are made, as explained above.
 
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