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The second book of Esdras (Apocrypha)

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wannagohome

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This book is alot about the end times and prophecy, one thing catches my attention greatly though. Chapter 13, verse 20: "Nevertheless, it is better to pass through these dangers and reach the end than to disappear like a cloud from this world and never see what takes place in the last days."

Seems pretty much like its saying the rapture is a no go.

Any thoughts? Jen
 

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wannagohome said:
This book is alot about the end times and prophecy, one thing catches my attention greatly though. Chapter 13, verse 20: "Nevertheless, it is better to pass through these dangers and reach the end than to disappear like a cloud from this world and never see what takes place in the last days."

Seems pretty much like its saying the rapture is a no go.

Any thoughts? Jen


lol...Well i looked into my bible but i think someone has ripped out the book of Esdras coz i can't find it ...:scratch:
 
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Starstreak M86

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wannagohome said:
This book is alot about the end times and prophecy, one thing catches my attention greatly though. Chapter 13, verse 20: "Nevertheless, it is better to pass through these dangers and reach the end than to disappear like a cloud from this world and never see what takes place in the last days."

Seems pretty much like its saying the rapture is a no go.

Any thoughts? Jen
Not necessarily.

Yet is it easier for him that is in danger to come into these things, than to pass away as a cloud out of the world, and not to see the things that happen in the last days. (2 Esdras 13:20)
Notice, nothing states that there will be no Rapture. Esdras is only stating that there will be persecution. Still no mention of Tribulation. The Bible talks of there being persecution before the Rapture and Tribulation. Persecution does not automatically = Tribulation. Sorry, try again.

Read 1 Thessalonians again with me, there is still no valid argument against the Rapture. ;)
 
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Starstreak M86

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Orthodoxyusa said:
You will have to use a Bible with the Septuagint (complete OT)...

http://www.christianforums.com/t727770:wave:
Forgive me....:priest:
I read the Concordant Literal New Testament Bible and the Living Bible.

But I also believe in the inspiration of Deuterocanonical books as well, I really should go out and buy an Orthodox Bible or a Catholic Bible. :priest:

I also buy some "lost books" as well, because I think some of them are inspired, or at least make for good reading. :priest:
 
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Orthodoxyusa said:
You will have to use a Bible with the Septuagint (complete OT)...

http://www.christianforums.com/t727770:wave:
Forgive me....:priest:
I believe that I am wrong about II Esdras being in the Septuagint.. the book "II Esdras" being quoted fom here is not included... also known as "IV Esdras" not "II Esdras"...

Forgive me...:priest:
 
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I'm at home now... able to look in my Orthodox Bible, it's there....

The New Oxford Annotated Bible with the Apocrypha expanded edition Revised Standard Version "An Ecumenical Study Bible"

Forgive me...
 
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wannagohome

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Starstreak M86 said:
Not necessarily.

Notice, nothing states that there will be no Rapture. Esdras is only stating that there will be persecution. Still no mention of Tribulation. The Bible talks of there being persecution before the Rapture and Tribulation. Persecution does not automatically = Tribulation. Sorry, try again.

Read 1 Thessalonians again with me, there is still no valid argument against the Rapture. ;)

It specifically says "last days", in fact the entire book of 2 Esdras is basically visions of the end times. Not random persecutions. Jen
 
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The way I see it, if it isn't Genesis through Revelation, it has no bearing on my life whatsoever. Why add confusion to something simple? Might as well add the book of Mormon, the Watchtower, the Quatrains of Nostradamus, etc., and make the circle complete :doh:
 
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Big Mouth Nana said:
The way I see it, if it isn't Genesis through Revelation, it has no bearing on my life whatsoever. Why add confusion to something simple? Might as well add the book of Mormon, the Watchtower, the Quatrains of Nostradamus, etc., and make the circle complete :doh:
This book is between those two, are you refering to the stripped down version known as the King James Bible from 1622?
 
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Orthodoxyusa said:
This book is between those two, are you refering to the stripped down version known as the King James Bible from 1622?
I don't know. In my KJ bible, it says the text originally taken from the 1611 version, and translated into English.
 
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Big Mouth Nana said:
I don't know. In my KJ bible, it says the text originally taken from the 1611 version, and translated into English.
I'm sure your correct, I alway get that date wrong.
 
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wannagohome said:
It specifically says "last days", in fact the entire book of 2 Esdras is basically visions of the end times. Not random persecutions. Jen
The times of the events before the Tribulation, like:

The Great Apostasy
The One World Government
The Great Lie
The Rise of Mystery Babylon

Are called "the last days" and "the Endtimes" in the epistles in the New Testament. The Endtimes does not automatically = the Tribulation. The Tribulation and more specifically the "Great Tribulation" is referred to by name.

Mostly because there is persecution before the Tribulation. However, it is not as severe as the Great Tribulation, so the Persecution before the Great Tribulation is called "the Endtimes" because it is close to the Last Week (Great Tribulation) in Daniel. 2 Esdras would have called it something other than the "last days" if it was the Tribulation, Endtimes are the last part of the Church Age.

That's why Pre-Tribs (me included) sometimes say things like, "Are we living in the Endtimes now?". Since Pre-Tribs believe that the Rapture is before the Tribulation, we would not call an era of persecution "the Endtimes" if it was the Tribulation, since we believe that the Tribulation does not happen until the Man of Sin (Antichrist) appears after the Restrainer (Holy Spirit and/or Church) is removed from the world.
 
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Nomenclature is a problem here. If you look at a Catholic Bible like the Douay Rheims (I believe this is the first Bible translated in to English, 1604) it will list 2 Esdras. But that 2 Esdras is known in other Bibles as Nehemiah. Ezra = Esdras, and 1 &2 Esdras correspond to Ezra and Nehemiah.

Then there is another book called 2 Esdras (that the OP quoted) which in Catholic/Orthodox terms is called 4 Esdras and is considered apocryphal/uninspired.
 
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wannagohome

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Starstreak M86 said:
The times of the events before the Tribulation, like:

The Great Apostasy
The One World Government
The Great Lie
The Rise of Mystery Babylon

Are called "the last days" and "the Endtimes" in the epistles in the New Testament. The Endtimes does not automatically = the Tribulation. The Tribulation and more specifically the "Great Tribulation" is referred to by name.

Mostly because there is persecution before the Tribulation. However, it is not as severe as the Great Tribulation, so the Persecution before the Great Tribulation is called "the Endtimes" because it is close to the Last Week (Great Tribulation) in Daniel. 2 Esdras would have called it something other than the "last days" if it was the Tribulation, Endtimes are the last part of the Church Age.

That's why Pre-Tribs (me included) sometimes say things like, "Are we living in the Endtimes now?". Since Pre-Tribs believe that the Rapture is before the Tribulation, we would not call an era of persecution "the Endtimes" if it was the Tribulation, since we believe that the Tribulation does not happen until the Man of Sin (Antichrist) appears after the Restrainer (Holy Spirit and/or Church) is removed from the world.


Just a couple questions then... if they introduce a chip that you can use in your body to purchase and sell items will you take it?
If some "guy" shows up and proclaims he's God and every one is gaga for him will you agree?
Just because it couldn't be 'the mark' or 'the antichrist' because you are still around? Jen
 
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wannagohome

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Big Mouth Nana said:
The way I see it, if it isn't Genesis through Revelation, it has no bearing on my life whatsoever. Why add confusion to something simple? Might as well add the book of Mormon, the Watchtower, the Quatrains of Nostradamus, etc., and make the circle complete :doh:

Its in my Bible (the Good News Bible), between Genesis and Revelations, so whats the beef? I am NOT talking about new age stuff here. Jen
 
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wannagohome said:
Just a couple questions then... if they introduce a chip that you can use in your body to purchase and sell items will you take it?
If some "guy" shows up and proclaims he's God and every one is gaga for him will you agree?
Just because it couldn't be 'the mark' or 'the antichrist' because you are still around? Jen
Wannagohome,
No to all of the questions. I would not accept the chip or the guy. I would know better! ;)

But, there is no indication in the Bible that the Church ever meets him. 1 Thessalonians says the Church is raptured (literally: "caught up") before 'the Man of Sin' (Antichrist) is revealed. Unless you're saying that Paul was mistaken....
 
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