The Seal?

[freeindeed2]

In the New covenant God promises to write his law on our hearts. Which law is his law? The heart refers to the mind. Where does Paul say that the law of God is in him? In his mind. He said that in his mind he serves or heeds to law of God but in the flesh the law of sin and death. If God does not want us to keep the law then why in the New covenant he places it on our hearts. I don't believe its to help with circulation.

Are you claiming to keep perfectly what Israel (to whom it was ACTUALLY commanded) NEVER did? WOW! You should write a book! ALL Jews would buy it!

In Christ alone...

 

[PROPHECYKID]

[FONT=&quot]This law was a schoolmaster or guardian as other versions say, to bring us to Christ. This Law was like a shadow of the real thing. A shadow of Christ. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Col[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Col[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This handwriting of Ordinances is a law and is the same law referred to in Galatians. They are both made of null effect due to the Death of Christ. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Heb 9:11 But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]These text shows that the law spoken of which was a shadow of Christ, an image of Christ, a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ was sacrificial in nature. We have to look at this law from a sacrificial standpoint. The sacrifices offered by this law, (Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law have no more pleasure to God in the new covenant because they were only shadows pointing to Christ. The Sabbath days were ceremonial Sabbaths, the meats and drinks were meat offerings and drink offerings. Everything that was a shadow was contained in the handwriting of ordinances which is the ceremonial law and not the 10 commandments. Since faith is come we no longer keep these sacrifices and holy days and other ceremonial stuff associated with sacrifices. Our faith in Jesus means that we believe that he is our ultimate sacrifice and his blood covers our sins. The law in Galatians is the ceremonial law.[/FONT]

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Are you claiming to keep perfectly what Israel (to whom it was ACTUALLY commanded) NEVER did? WOW! You should write a book! ALL Jews would buy it!

In Christ alone...

So you are not apart of the new covenant. If any man be Christ' he is Abrahams seed. Are you not Abrahams seed. Isn't the New covenant for you as well? Do we base what we should do based on who is doing it?

 

[PROPHECYKID]

We are saved by Grace through faith and not by keeping the law. But we all should know that faith without works is dead. The saints in Revelation who do not take the mark of the beast have faith but can we see their works as a result of their faith?

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Keeping the commandments are as a result of two things, faith and love.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Love is the fulfilling of the Law. When one accepts Christ and has the holy spirit he will have the fruits of the spirit. Two of those are faith and love. Both faith and love are demonstrated by works.
If you say to your wife or girlfriend or boyfriend that you love them and don't do anything they tell you to do even if it's for your own good will that person feel that you love them?

Because we are saved we keep the law cause salvation comes through faith and brings forth love which are both demonstrated by works.
The bible never said that love might fulfill the law depending on the person. Love fulfills the law end of story, that is what the bible says.

Paul even makes it clear that we need grace because of sin which is present because of the law.

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Adam and Eve could not sin unless God told them not to eat of that tree. Since God gave that law then there was sin.
Because of the law there is sin and because of sin there is grace and because there is grace we can be saved from the penalty for sin.
If there is no law sin cannot be in effect and we would not have to pay the penalty of sin so we would not need grace.

Finally lets say that Paul and John is having a conversation.

Paul says this to John.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

John says, " Oh, I am not under the law but under grace but that does not mean that i should sin. The lord inspired me and told me that sin is the transgression of the law. So then what you are saying is that because i am under grace it does not mean i should break the law.

Paul says, "Exactly, If the law came so that the offense or sin may abound and grace abounds because of sin then grace should cover our sins so we should be under grace.

Hope this helps

 

[Jimlarmore]

I appreciate your honesty that you see the plain reading of the Colossians text as not supportive of the SDA position.

The Bible is deeper than a cursory reading and entails deep understanding at times. This is one of them. Surely any clear thinking individual can see that the context of meat and drink offerings had nothing to do with the 7th day Sabbath. It's not speaking of the Holy day of God. The day that Christ Himself said He was Lord of.

2 Corinthians 3 calls what was written and engraved on stones as the ministry of death. Breaking one of the 10 commandments was not without punishment under the old covenant. How could that not be against them?

It was the sin that was against them not the ten commandment laws. No where are the ten commandments said to be against the people. The ceremonial laws that were the hand writing of ordinances placed in the side of the ark was said to be against them because they contained curses. The ten commandments were placed inside the ark and was written on stone for permanance.

The Greek word for Sabbath in that text is
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]4521 sabbaton {sab'-bat-on}. There is no separate word for days. Even if there was were not the weekly Sabbaths days?[/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]The Bible is very consistent when it speaks of the Sabbath in that it specifically almost always says "My holy day" or "God's holy day" when speaking of the 7th day Sabbath. The fact sabbaths days as a plural is mentioned here in context with meat and drink offering tells us it's not the 7th day Sabbbath that was nailed to the cross.

[/SIZE][/SIZE]

How do you know? If the NT does not say gobs and gobs about how we are not to keep the feasts how do you know you are not breaking God's commands?

The Bible is very clear that the ceremonial laws are what was nailed to the cross. The 7th day Sabbath like I said earlier was a paradigm solid as a rock. IF it was to be done away with Paul would have written volumes.

Grace doesn't demand that the 10 commandments be intact and functioning any more than it does keeping the feasts. You don't need law to need grace. The sin nature that came upon all men as a result of Adam's sin made grace necessary.

You misunderstand what grace is then. Grace is unmerited favor,,,, favor for what? Forgiveness of sin where it is not deserved. What is sin? Transgression of the law. Grace cannot function unless there is sin. Sin is the transgression of God's holy law.

Yes, we should not worry about anything! If we are worrying about obedience then we are focused on ourselves. God does not want us to worry. Be anxious for nothing!

Nearly the entire Bible makes it very clear that we should be about worrying about sin. Life here is a struggle according to Paul who says he ran a race to be a new covenant Christian. Nearly the entire Bible is about mankind changing his life ( being born again ) to a life of obedience to God's will/laws. If we comit sin without a thought then we are not in Christ as we think we are. We are like the sow returning to her wallow or the dog returning to it's vomit.

Yes, following the Holy Spirit will lead us to a higher standard. Love, joy, peace, patience, etc.

All of which are false pretences of Christianity if you intentionally break God's law as a practice in life. Especially without confession and repentence.

Yes, you have no problem in not keeping the feasts. Did God not give those laws? Are those laws less holy?

Nope they were holy when they were needed. They are no longer needed so they are no longer holy.

The Holy Spirit is given to those to who come to Christ in faith. He then changes us. I think you are looking at it from the other way around - we change then receive the Holy Spirit. We come just as we are to Christ and He changes us.

Nope, you come as you are and it is the changing power of the savior that allows us to obey. Obedience is a result of being saved not the reason for it. The Holy Spirit would never direct us to break His holy law.

What is the command we are to follow to receive the Holy Spirit?

Ephesians 1 "13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory."

Besides the Bible says we CAN'T crucify the Lord afresh. If breaking any part of the 10 commandments is crucifying the Lord afresh then we are all lost.

Heb 6:6
6

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

One way we can fall away is to turn our back on the Lord by practicing sin in our life.

The context does not speak to that.

We must be reading two different Bibles.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[freeindeed2]

[FONT=&quot]The Sabbath days were ceremonial Sabbaths, the meats and drinks were meat offerings and drink offerings. Everything that was a shadow was contained in the handwriting of ordinances which is the ceremonial law and not the 10 commandments. Since faith is come we no longer keep these sacrifices and holy days and other ceremonial stuff associated with sacrifices. Our faith in Jesus means that we believe that he is our ultimate sacrifice and his blood covers our sins. The law in Galatians is the ceremonial law.[/FONT]

Please provide the Scripture where Israel recognized the SDA division and dissection of the law given to them (Israel). Please show the, as YOU say, 'ceremonial Sabbaths' (even though they were weekly, monthly, yearly, every 7 years, and every 7 X 7 years) that excludes the weekly from the rest of them (why you ignore this, I'll never know!). Please show that in the sermon on the MOUNT, Jesus was ONLY fulfilling the portion of law that SDA's say he was fulfilling.

Thanks.

In Christ alone...

 

[PROPHECYKID]

If you say you know God and do not keep God's commandments you are all liars. If you guys have faith in Jesus and do not have any works then you faith is dead. If you guys say that you have love and do not fulfill or carry out the law then you are confused since love fulfills the law. If you guys don't attempt to keep the commandments then you are not apart of the remnant who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus. If you guys say you do not have to keep the law then you are carnal and walk after the flesh because the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God.

 

[freeindeed2]

The Bible is deeper than a cursory reading and entails deep understanding at times. This is one of them. Surely any clear thinking individual can see that the context of meat and drink offerings had nothing to do with the 7th day Sabbath. It's not speaking of the Holy day of God. The day that Christ Himself said He was Lord of.

It was the sin that was against them not the ten commandment laws. No where are the ten commandments said to be against the people. The ceremonial laws that were the hand writing of ordinances placed in the side of the ark was said to be against them because they contained curses. The ten commandments were placed inside the ark and was written on stone for permanance.

[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]The Bible is very consistent when it speaks of the Sabbath in that it specifically almost always says "My holy day" or "God's holy day" when speaking of the 7th day Sabbath. The fact sabbaths days as a plural is mentioned here in context with meat and drink offering tells us it's not the 7th day Sabbbath that was nailed to the croos.
[/SIZE][/SIZE]
The Bible is very clear that the ceremonial laws are what was nailed to the cross. The 7th day Sabbath like I said earlier was a paradigm solid as a rock. IF it was to be done away with Paul would have written volumes.

Grace doesn't demand that the 10 commandments be intact and functioning any more than it does keeping the feasts. You don't need law to need grace. The sin nature that came upon all men as a result of Adam's sin made grace necessary.

You misunderstand what grace is then. Grace is unmerited favor,,,, favor for what? Forgiveness of sin where it is not deserved. What is sin? Transgression of the law. Grace cannot function unless there is sin. Sin is the transgression of God's holy law.

Nearly the entire Bible makes it very clear that we should be about worrying about sin. Life here is a struggle according to Paul who says he ran a race to be a new covenant Christian. Nearly the entire Bible is about mankind changing his life ( being born again ) to a life of obedience to God's will/laws. If we comit sin without a thought then we are not in Christ as we think we are. We are like the sow returning to her wallow or the dog returning to it's vomit.

All of which are false pretences of Christianity if you intentionally break God's law as a practice in life. Especially without confession and repentence.

Nope they were holy when they were needed. They are no longer needed so they are no longer holy.


Nope, you come as you are and it is the changing power of the savior that allows us to obey. Obedience is a result of being saved not the reason for it. The Holy Spirit would never direct us to break His holy law.

Heb 6:6
6

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

One way we can fall away is to turn our back on the Lord by practicing sin in our life.

We must be reading two different Bibles.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Since SDA's lift up the Sabbath (first and foremost), why hasn't the Holy Spirit given conviction of it to the larger body of Christ? BIG question! If all of creation hinges on the Sabbath, as SDA's claims ('separating wall between lost and saved', 'seal of God', 'final test of loyalty to God', 'fourth commandment with a halo of light - thus the most important'), why hasn't God (Holy Spirit - FULLY GOD) given conviction to all of the 'Jesus only-ers'.? The proof is in the pudding. (And, please don't give me some 'ROME' jargon!)

In CHRIST alone...

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Please provide the Scripture where Israel recognized the SDA division and dissection of the law given to them (Israel).

In the first place i don't need israel to show me what the bible states. Israel needed not to make any distinction in any laws because they had to keep them all whether ceremonial, civil, moral or dietary. They had to keep all laws. We need to make a distinction because God nailed the handwriting of ordinances to the cross and we need to know what that is so that we would know what we do not have to keep.

Please show the, as YOU say, 'ceremonial Sabbaths' (even though they were weekly, monthly, yearly, every 7 years, and every 7 X 7 years) that excludes the weekly from the rest of them (why you ignore this, I'll never know!).

The seventh day sabbath was apart of the 10 commandments and that alone seperates it from all the additional sabbaths that came as a result of the sacrifices and ordinances. Did God set bless and sanctify any of the additional sabbath days.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Please show that in the sermon on the MOUNT, Jesus was ONLY fulfilling the portion of law that SDA's say he was fulfilling.

Do you know what the word fulfill means. Fulfill does not mean to destroy or abolish but the opposite hence the word "but". The original greek says "to fill" instead of to fulfill. When Jesus preached about lust and about murdering someone in their own hearts and about worshipping him in vain by following mans commandments he was bringing men to a complete knowledge of the law. He was expounded the meaning of the law.

 

[freeindeed2]

In the first place i don't need israel to show me what the bible states. Israel needed not to make any distinction in any laws because they had to keep them all whether ceremonial, civil, moral or dietary. They had to keep all laws. We need to make a distinction because God nailed the handwriting of ordinances to the cross and we need to know what that is so that we would know what we do not have to keep.

SO revealing! Thank you for that. YOU do what even the Jews did NOT, and they were the one's to whom the law was given (nobody else!).

The seventh day sabbath was apart of the 10 commandments and that alone seperates it from all the additional sabbaths that came as a result of the sacrifices and ordinances.

Read Lev. 23. It was a system that you only hang on to ONE part of (and do not keep as it was commanded!).

Did God set bless and sanctify any of the additional sabbath days.

Yes, it's called TODAY! TODAY is the day of salvation. Christians worship God EVERY day and rest in HIS finished work.

In Christ alone...

 

[Jimlarmore]

Free,
You spend any time on Carm lately? Just curious. I have never gone back there and don't plan to.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[PROPHECYKID]

SO revealing! Thank you for that. YOU do what even the Jews did NOT, and they were the one's to whom the law was given (nobody else!).

So now the law is strictly for the Jews.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

I guess the saints are only Jews.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I guess those entering through the gates are only Jews.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

I guess all the non Jews are carnally minded because as you say we are not subject to the law of God.

Read Lev. 23. It was a system that you only hang on to ONE part of (and do not keep as it was commanded!).

Before ceremonies and sacrifices was the holy sabbath was. When ceremonies and sacrifices are removed the holy Sabbath will still remain because the commandments remain.

Yes, it's called TODAY! TODAY is the day of salvation. Christians worship God EVERY day and rest in HIS finished work.

Of course Today is the day of Salvation. It does not replace the Sabbath because the Sabbath is not a day of Salvation. Its a day to remember our creator who created the world. God never denounced his blessing on the Sabbath day so the blessing is still there.

 

[freeindeed2]

Free,
You spend any time on Carm lately? Just curious. I have never gone back there and don't plan to.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Yes, I've been gone for several months, but am posting again there. Why don't you come back home?

In Christ alone...

 

[cyberlizard]

it is always good that many believe the ten commandments apply to them but then discount the rest of the torah.

People cannot have it both ways, either the ten commandments are binding or they are not.... if they are then so is the Torah (as they belong together).

If the ten commandments are not binding then what requirements does the follower of Christ have?


Steve

 

[freeindeed2]

So now the law is strictly for the Jews.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

I guess the saints are only Jews.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I guess those entering through the gates are only Jews.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

I guess all the non Jews are carnally minded because as you say we are not subject to the law of God.




Before ceremonies and sacrifices was the holy sabbath was. When ceremonies and sacrifices are removed the holy Sabbath will still remain because the commandments remain.




Of course Today is the day of Salvation. It does not replace the Sabbath because the Sabbath is not a day of Salvation. Its a day to remember our creator who created the world. God never denounced his blessing on the Sabbath day so the blessing is still there.

Stick to Scripture. It will help!

In Christ alone...

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Its amazing how people can bypass so many scriptures to stick to their belief. Just in case you missed them.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Jam 2:8 If ye fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:

Jam 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? Jam 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jam 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Thats what i am doing and that is why i disagree with you.

 

[freeindeed2]

Its amazing how people can bypass so many scriptures to stick to their belief.

Yes, it is COMPLETELY amazing! How did you miss in Romans that we died to the law and were joined to Christ? You say the opposite (as indicated below, with out of context quotations of Scripture!)?

Just in case you missed them.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Jam 2:8 If ye fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:

Jam 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? Jam 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jam 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

ALL about the law (Moses), NOTHING about Christ! Who (what) is your Savior?

In Christ alone...

 

[freeindeed2]

Thats what i am doing and that is why i disagree with you.

Try it in context...

In Christ alone...