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The Scriptural documentation of the Pre-trib Rapture of the Church and its timing

Douggg

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If you call using "generalized " terms misleading information then you have some real problems in understanding language , if you cannot understand that is your problem and not mine as you don't get to dictate anything on that matter !
Everyone can construct their post as their wish as long as it is within the forum rules. There is no forum rule that a person has to be correct in what they say.

The issue at hand is a specific instance of generalizing, saying 3.5 years without saying nominally 3.5 years.

The bible doesn't say in any place 3.5 or 3 1/2 years... for a reason. Most persons wrongly think the 1260 days; 42 months; the time, times, half times are exact equivalents of each other and 3 1/2 years....not even considering why those time frames are expressed differently.
 
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Douggg

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More suppositions without any proof
Daniel 9:24 is the proof.

The Pope does not fit the 70 weeks profile of being for Daniel's people Israel and Jerusalem.

Do you think the two witnesses are Israelite's - or Protestants ?
 
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seventysevens

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Daniel 9:24 is the proof.

The Pope does not fit the 70 weeks profile of being for Daniel's people Israel and Jerusalem.

Do you think the two witnesses are Israelite's - or Protestants ?
In all of this - you still AVOID answering the question of who do you think the false prophet is as you do not include him in any of your posts of the 70th week
You have even weak suppositions as there is nothing in the scripture that says the Pope
can't be- Simple example Obama did not want anyone to know that he is muslim during the elections because he knew that he would not be elected if that were known , so he presented himself as Christian and betrayed Christianity in as many was a he could trying to remove Christianity from America - he did more for muslims and all anti Christian agendas than any usefulness as a Christian - scripture says you will know them by their fruit
prophecy does not indicate that a person must live in Israel before being involved with the end times government and even an embassy provides a home for an official that comes form another country
 
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Douggg

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In all of this - you still AVOID answering the question of who do you think the false prophet is as you do not include him in any of your posts of the 70th week
The person will be a Jew who claims to be Elijah reincarated.
 
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Douggg

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prophecy does not indicate that a person must live in Israel before being involved with the end times government and even an embassy provides a home for an official that comes form another country
The 70 weeks in Daniel 9 are upon Daniel's people Israel and Jerusalem. The Jews are expecting the messiah, someone other than Jesus, who will be anointed by a prophet to be the King of Israel. The Pope doesn't fit into that equation.

The person who becomes the Antichrist will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years, as the leader of Israel, following Moses's law in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 to do so. So the person has to be anointed by someone the Jews perceive to be a prophet. Which the Pope, associated with Christianity, is the last person they would consider.
 
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jgr

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You are mixing apples and oranges.

The issue is not what the reformers achieved and suffered, but their interpretations of the end times prophecies.
The Reformers' sufferings and achievements were a direct result of their accurate interpretation and recognition of the conditions of their time as representing the fulfillment of prophecies in Daniel, Thessalonians, John's epistles, and Revelation; and their determination and courage to act upon that interpretation and recognition. Without either, the Reformation would not have occurred, and you and I would not be enjoying the spiritual freedom to have this dialogue today.

On this 500th anniversary of the Reformation, give thanks for the Reformers, and what their prophetic recognition, faith, courage, and sacrifice purchased for you and me.
 
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Douggg

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The Reformers' sufferings and achievements were a direct result of their accurate interpretation and recognition of the conditions of their time as representing the fulfillment of prophecies in Daniel, Thessalonians, John's epistles, and Revelation; and the determination and courage to act upon that interpretation and recognition. Without either, the Reformation would not have occurred, and you and I would not be enjoying the spiritual freedom to have this dialogue today.
The reformers suffered at the hands of the Roman Catholic Church because they broke away from that system of corruption based on theological doctrine - not over eschatology. Martin Luther's Ninety-Five Thesis was on the use and practices of indulgences, nepotism, simony, usury, pluralism, and the sale of indulgences.

The eschatology they developed was because of the suffering and persecution of their breaking away and criticism of the Roman Catholic Church system. Their eschatology rationale that the Papacy was the beast and the Pope the Antichrist is what is in error. Not their theological criticism of the Roman Catholic Church System.
 
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jgr

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The reformers suffered at the hands of the Roman Catholic Church because they broke away from that system of corruption based on theological doctrine - not over eschatology. Martin Luther's Ninety-Five Thesis was on the use and practices of indulgences, nepotism, simony, usury, pluralism, and the sale of indulgences.

The eschatology they developed was because of the suffering and persecution of their breaking away and criticism of the Roman Catholic Church system. Their eschatology rationale that the Papacy was the beast and the Pope the Antichrist is what is in error. Not their theological criticism of the Roman Catholic Church System.
Luther's ninety-five theses were fastened to the church door in Wittenberg on Oct. 31, 1517.

The Reformers' recognition of the papacy as antichrist was seen long before that.
John Wycliffe (1330-1384):
"Why is it necessary in unbelief to look for another antichrist?...In the seventh chapter of Daniel antichrist is forcefully described by a horn arising in the time of the fourth kingdom...wearing out the saints of the most high". (De Veritate Sacrae Scripturae, vol. 3).

The papacy as antichrist was a foundational eschatological doctrine of the Reformers from the very beginning. It was not a later "rationalization".
 
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Douggg

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Luther's ninety-five theses were fastened to the church door in Wittenberg on Oct. 31, 1517.

The Reformers' recognition of the papacy as antichrist was seen long before that.
John Wycliffe (1330-1384):
"Why is it necessary in unbelief to look for another antichrist?...In the seventh chapter of Daniel antichrist is forcefully described by a horn arising in the time of the fourth kingdom...wearing out the saints of the most high". (De Veritate Sacrae Scripturae, vol. 3).

The papacy as antichrist was a foundational eschatological doctrine of the Reformers from the very beginning. It was not a later "rationalization".
Okay, I will give you credit on John Wycliffe, as a precursor to the reformation. It is still wrong what John Wycliffe asserted.

A little more research on my part. At this site, down at the bottom, is a list of religious figures who claim the Pope/Papacy the Antichrist before, during, after the reformation. They are all wrong.

Forefathers reveal ANTICHRIST
 
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jgr

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Okay, I will give you credit on John Wycliffe, as a precursor to the reformation. It is still wrong what John Wycliffe asserted.

A little more research on my part. At this site, down at the bottom, is a list of religious figures who claim the Pope/Papacy the Antichrist before, during, after the reformation. They are all wrong.

Forefathers reveal ANTICHRIST
Thanks for further confirming the evidence of historical fulfillment, and the historical prophetic faith of the saints. If they are all wrong, then God must have been all wrong, because His Hand was undeniably in the Reformation, and the papacy as antichrist was an essential doctrine thereof.

They are all wrong, but the armchair futurists are not?

How many armchair futurists have burned at the stake?
 
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Douggg

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If they are all wrong, then God must have been all wrong, because His Hand was undeniably in the Reformation, and the papacy as antichrist was an essential doctrine thereof.
That's bad rationale you are making. They are wrong about the Pope being the Antichrist because they didn't have an understanding of what the Antichrist is. They has an understanding of traits of the Antichrist, but they did not make the connection that the Antichrist has to be anointed the King of Israel, instead of and against Jesus - the rightful King of Israel - as what actually makes the person the Antichrist.

They are all wrong, but the armchair futurists are not?

How many armchair futurists have burned at the stake?

There have been countless Jews killed for not converting to Christianity. This is what I am told by the Jews. Does that make the Jews' position on Jesus correct? No, it does not. Many of the reformers were killed because of their criticism against the Roman Catholic Church, but it does not make their assertion that the Pope/Papacy is the Antichrist, correct.
 
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jgr

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That's bad rationale you are making. They are wrong about the Pope being the Antichrist because they didn't have an understanding of what the Antichrist is. They has an understanding of traits of the Antichrist, but they did not make the connection that the Antichrist has to be anointed the King of Israel, instead of and against Jesus - the rightful King of Israel - as what actually makes the person the Antichrist.



There have been countless Jews killed for not converting to Christianity. This is what I am told by the Jews. Does that make the Jews' position on Jesus correct? No, it does not. Many of the reformers were killed because of their criticism against the Roman Catholic Church, but it does not make their assertion that the Pope/Papacy is the Antichrist, correct.
They had an overwhelmingly better understanding of who antichrist was, because they were living under him, and dying because of him.

That kind of understanding doesn't occur sitting in an armchair.
 
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jgr

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jgr, I would like to know from you which of the reformers thought the 7 years of Daniel 9 is the same 7 years following Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 39?
Douggg, if you're wondering if they considered Daniel's 70th week to be postponed, the answer is unequivocally no.

I'm not aware of any commentary by the Reformers on Ezekiel 39.
 
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seventysevens

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They had an overwhelmingly better understanding of who antichrist was, because they were living under him, and dying because of him.

That kind of understanding doesn't occur sitting in an armchair.
they may have been living under someone who was an anti christ but they were not living under the man of lawlessness spoken of in scripture - that kind of understanding is fact as it is elementary sense that all has to be fulfilled - just just a piece added to assumptions
 
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jgr

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they may have been living under someone who was an anti christ but they were not living under the man of lawlessness spoken of in scripture - that kind of understanding is fact as it is elementary sense that all has to be fulfilled - just just a piece added to assumptions
John Calvin disagrees.

Here, however, the subject treated of is not the name of God himself, but his majesty and worship, and, in general, everything that he claims for himself. "True religion is that by which the true God alone is worshipped; that, the son of perdition will transfer to himself." Now, every one that has learned from Scripture what are the things that more especially belong to God, and will, on the other hand, observe what the Pope claims for himself -- though he were but a boy of ten years of age -- will have no great difficulty in recognizing Antichrist. Scripture declares that God is the alone Lawgiver (James 4:12) who is able to save and to destroy; the alone King, whose office it is to govern souls by his word. It represents him as the author of all sacred rites; [644] it teaches that righteousness and salvation are to be sought from Christ alone; and it assigns, at the same time, the manner and means. There is not one of these things that the Pope does not affirm to be under his authority. He boasts that it is his to bind consciences with such laws as seem good to him, and subject them to everlasting punishment. As to sacraments, he either institutes new ones, according to his own inclination, [645] or he corrupts and deforms those which had been instituted by Christ -- nay, sets them aside altogether, that he may substitute in their place the sacrileges [646] which he has invented. He contrives means of attaining salvation that are altogether at variance with the doctrine of the Gospel; and, in fine, he does not hesitate to change the whole of religion at his own pleasure. What is it, I pray you, for one to lift up himself above everything that is reckoned God, if the Pope does not do so? When he thus robs God of his honor, he leaves him nothing remaining but an empty title of Deity, [647] while he transfers to himself the whole of his power. And this is what Paul adds shortly afterwards, that the son of perdition would shew himself as God. For, as has been said, he does not insist upon the simple term God, but intimates, that the pride [648] of Antichrist would be such, that, raising himself above the number and rank of servants, and mounting the judgment-seat of God, [649] would reign, not with a human, but with a divine authority. For we know that whatever is raised up into the place of God is an idol, though it should not bear the name of God.
 
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Douggg

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They had an overwhelmingly better understanding of who antichrist was, because they were living under him, and dying because of him.

That kind of understanding doesn't occur sitting in an armchair.
Preterists use the same kind of rationale to claim Nero was the Antichrist.
 
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Douggg

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Douggg, if you're wondering if they considered Daniel's 70th week to be postponed, the answer is unequivocally no.

I'm not aware of any commentary by the Reformers on Ezekiel 39.
Understanding that the 7 years of Daniel 9 is the same 7 years in Ezekiel 39 is critical, because in Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the Armageddon feast, and Jesus is speaking in verse 21.
 
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