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The scientific myth of creationism

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shernren

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Throughout the Bible, death is seen as punishment, but is it the bodily death that is so dreadful?

Even that isn't strictly ture. At many points the morality of the OT can be enigmatic, and here is a hauntingly powerful incident in the life of a man whom God selected and then had to reject in his own lifetime.

1 Kings 14

At that time Abijah son of Jeroboam became ill, and Jeroboam said to his wife, "Go, disguise yourself, so you won't be recognized as the wife of Jeroboam. Then go to Shiloh. Ahijah the prophet is there—the one who told me I would be king over this people. Take ten loaves of bread with you, some cakes and a jar of honey, and go to him. He will tell you what will happen to the boy." So Jeroboam's wife did what he said and went to Ahijah's house in Shiloh.
Now Ahijah could not see; his sight was gone because of his age. But the LORD had told Ahijah, "Jeroboam's wife is coming to ask you about her son, for he is ill, and you are to give her such and such an answer. When she arrives, she will pretend to be someone else."
So when Ahijah heard the sound of her footsteps at the door, he said, "Come in, wife of Jeroboam. Why this pretense? I have been sent to you with bad news. Go, tell Jeroboam that this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'I raised you up from among the people and made you a leader over my people Israel. I tore the kingdom away from the house of David and gave it to you, but you have not been like my servant David, who kept my commands and followed me with all his heart, doing only what was right in my eyes. You have done more evil than all who lived before you. You have made for yourself other gods, idols made of metal; you have provoked me to anger and thrust me behind your back.
" 'Because of this, I am going to bring disaster on the house of Jeroboam. I will cut off from Jeroboam every last male in Israel—slave or free. I will burn up the house of Jeroboam as one burns dung, until it is all gone. Dogs will eat those belonging to Jeroboam who die in the city, and the birds of the air will feed on those who die in the country. The LORD has spoken!'
"As for you, go back home. When you set foot in your city, the boy will die. All Israel will mourn for him and bury him. He is the only one belonging to Jeroboam who will be buried, because he is the only one in the house of Jeroboam in whom the LORD, the God of Israel, has found anything good.

Death was reward and protection, not punishment, for this dear child.
 
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shernren

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Sometimes i really wonder about the amount of time i spend here and if it is really worth it.

Then i watch someone like Shernren. He is really paying attention to what is going on here. He is taking it as a learning lesson and as a creative writing exercise. I can see pieces of other people's postings integrated into his thinking, i can see changes in his arguments as he proceeds to discuss the issues. and listen to people and react to their concerns.

and you know what?
it makes the time and energy spent here so much more valuable. so much more a learning experience for me as well.

much public thanks to him and all those who bring in riches from their worlds to share and enrich ours.

THANKS.

You're welcome. :) It's my pleasure. Maybe this is obvious by now, but if it isn't, I cut my teeth in logical arguments doing debates. I was the third speaker on the school team 3 years ago (sweet sixteen :))and by God's grace we were the national champions and I was best speaker in the finals. :)

I guess that's the background which has helped me churn out posts :p ... debating isn't about winning over the opposing team, it's about winning over the adjudicators and the audience. That helps to blunt the frustration of seeing my points slide off creationists like water off a duck's back ... :p

It is my privilege to be able to participate in these forums, and to find here a place unusually receptive and comfortable to TEism.
 
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LoG

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shernren said:
The obvious parallel in this passage is:

fashioned with order and habitation vs. formless and void
[land of] Jacob's descendants vs. land of darkness
declaration of truth vs. speaking in secret
God vs. the idols of the pagans

Yahweh as the God of the Jews is their divine representative warrior. He is portrayed as a powerful warrior, both in "human form" and by taking on the metaphor of powerful carnivores such as the lion, whenever His people are oppressed or disobedient. However, the foundation for understanding Yahweh as warrior is found all the way back in Genesis 1. In Genesis 1 Yahweh is the warrior for order, and who is His "adversary"? The chaos waters: the deep in Genesis 1:2,3; and the resulting formlessness and emptiness of creation initially. God is seen to "set apart" the sky between the waters, and the land above which the waters cannot encroach, and plants from empty land, and stars in the sky to mark off seasons (give order to) in time (primeval, undivided chaos). This forms the paradigm within which the people of Israel understood Yahweh as their warrior: they were the order which God had wrested from the chaos around them.

The only parallel I see in your description of Yahweh and his adversary Chaos, is that of the Greek and Babylonian creation myths involving Marduk and Tiamet. Seems you are mixing them up. I understand now why you believe Genesis to be a myth since the one you are portraying,actualy is.

Nothing exists apart from God and since He is perfect, chaos is not something he would create,being that it is against His nature. The only time that wording is used in the bible is when it is related to something He destructed not created.
 
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random_guy

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Lion of God said:
Nothing exists apart from God and since He is perfect, chaos is not something he would create,being that it is against His nature. The only time that wording is used in the bible is when it is related to something He destructed not created.

Just wanted to jump in on this bit, but chaos often gets an unfair rap since so few people understand what chaos really means, mathematically. Things that a linear are predictable and behave exactly how we predict. Chaos arises from non-linear reactions that make prediction based off of previous data near impossible. However, the non-linear reactions also allow order to arise from the chaos, allowing things such as the beating heart to go back to its aperiodic beating if perturbed from its beating pattern.
 
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shernren

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The only parallel I see in your description of Yahweh and his adversary Chaos, is that of the Greek and Babylonian creation myths involving Marduk and Tiamet. Seems you are mixing them up. I understand now why you believe Genesis to be a myth since the one you are portraying,actualy is.

Practically every creation story in the prescientific world involved a deity of creation defeating chaos. That is why the concept of "order vs. chaos" immediately brought to your mind Babylonian and Greek myths. And it is precisely because of creationism's scientific myth interpretation that Christians like you lose access to this valuable paradigm in understanding Genesis 1.

Genesis 1 is like the other myths of the cultures surrounding the Jews in that it describes God overcoming the primeval chaos and creating a habitable earth. I'm not too well versed in ANE cultural mythology, caveat (although as an Asian I can be a bit closer to culture and myth than Westerners in general), but the crucial difference between Genesis 1 and the surrounding myths is that in Genesis 1, chaos is not personified, nor is it projected as being a living thing. Chaos never puts up a shadow of a fight. God doesn't have to move even a finger to strong-arm chaos into playing nice, He simply speaks and it is done. God is running the show from start to finish.

Nothing exists apart from God and since He is perfect, chaos is not something he would create,being that it is against His nature. The only time that wording is used in the bible is when it is related to something He destructed not created.

Except God disagrees. Isaiah 45 strikes again!

v 7: I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.

Both "create"s are bara', the same verb used in Genesis 1. Darkness and disaster are not orderly, are they?

Go revive the GT thread when you have some serious evidence of any sort for it.
 
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shernren

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[the "oxymoron" post will come after this, I think I need to do some foundational thinking about presuppositions to make a mature post of that.]
[Usual caveat about "myth". But I think this article is aimed at all creationists, not just the scientific creationist set.]

The creationist Matrix

In The Matrix movie trilogy, humans were plugged into a vast electro-neural network that manipulated and massaged their sensory inputs to make them believe that they were living in the real world, when actually they were simply functioning as organic power sources for machine life. In the same way, myths require an interpretive matrix of presuppositions before they can be believed effectively. The atheistic evolutionary myth does not make sense to Christians because we do not subscribe to its prerequisite matrix, etc. So what is the creationist matrix of presuppositions?

1. Projecting personal fancies onto objective theological preferences.

This is really the key underlying assumption behind creationism: that God thinks the way we think. To be fair, this occurs on both sides of the debate, and is often left unexamined by either side. However, I will be completely frank that my agenda is to examine creationism, and so it is up to others (or perhaps me at a later time) to examine evolutionism in the light of personal projection. Creationism is predicated on the idea that because we view such-and-such a thing as being good, and its opposite as being bad (in an absolute sense) God must think the same way too. This often happens at an extremely deep level of subconscious justification.

There are two key concepts in creationism which are coloured by this presupposition: perfection, and Scriptural revelation (which will be explored in the next point). The creationist concept of perfection is heavily coloured by personal whims and fancies. For example, creationism often projects a personal bias that carnivorism and animal death is cruel: therefore they cannot have been a part of a perfect world. But Scripture never reveals God saying anywhere that they are results of the Fall, and creationism works just fine with them: they are merely reasons to disagree with the opposition. God glories in carnivores as a part of His majestic creation, compares Himself to carnivores (specifically, the image of the conquering lion), and never expresses condemnation against them. And since animal death has no moral content, how can it be said to be "bad"? Another example is how the antediluvian world is always projected as being green, lush, and warm. But is this preference for such physical characteristics of the universe infer-rable from Scripture? Again, no.

The creationist argument can also be stated as such: "Since the world is in decay now, the world must have been different when it was perfect". However, upon closer scrutiny, the argument often evaporates to something along these lines:

"If I were God, and I were to allow animal death before the Fall, that would make me cruel.
Therefore, for God to allow animal death before the Fall would make Him cruel.
Since God is not cruel, there could not have been animal death before the Fall."

wherein the second line is a fallacy of unprovable, inappropriate analogy. How do you know what "cruel" is defined as to God? In at least one instant in the Old Testament (1 Kings 14, quoted above) God is portrayed as granting a peaceful death to a child as the result of the child having been found blameless in God's sight. That would be cruelty by any creationist projection of cruelty, and yet God did it. God's morality can be ambiguous, not because of any ambiguity in God Himself but because of the extremely limited scope of human knowledge.

It should be noted that personal projection of cruelty is the main driving force behind the argument of theodicy, or the question of how a good omnipotent God's actions can allow the existence of evil. By using the same form of argument to bolster their points, they indirectly lend weight to theodicy, so that it is necessary to bring in the idea of free will and to begin a whole new controversy on divine predestination against human free will. Whereas theodicy can be rejected right from the start as an illegitimate projection of human values on God ... which would also, unfortunately, take the sting out of many YEC arguments against old-earth creation/evolution.

[A far more interesting avenue of exploration is the presupposition that in a material universe it is possible for some arrangement of matter (i.e. pre-Fall) to be described as "perfect" where others (i.e. post-Fall) are described as "imperfect" based on differences in matter distribution and properties alone, and how the creationist idea of "perfect" is really reading Aristotelian ideal "perfection" into Hebrew ANE "very good". But I don't consider myself qualified to swim so deep.]

2. Common-sense hermeneutics

This stems from the projection of our communicative styles, skills and goals on God. We talk straight-forwardly (as much as language allows) when communicating with each other, and we assume that the other person is being literal unless otherwise indicated. When we project these properties of our communication upon the word of God, we arrive at common-sense hermeneutics. According to this style of interpretation, if Scripture has a sense which is plain and obvious to us, it must be the right sense. The actual justification for this is that if I said something which has a plain and obvious sense to you, you assume that that sense was precisely what I meant. But this suffers from the same problem of illegitimate analogy that the above point had: how do you know God talks the way we talk? After all, God's definitive "Word" ... was a God-man, His death, and His resurrection.

Common-sense hermeneutics also sometimes assumes that we are the intended recipients of the Bible and therefore that it was written for our modern paradigms. I have no problem with the first assumption, but the second is yet another case of illegitimate analogy. The first assumption, that we are on the "cc" list if the Bible is God's email to mankind, leads to the second - that God would have written with our paradigm in mind. When I write an email and cc it to you, I naturally make sure you can understand it, even if I am not directly addressing it to you. But again, do we know that God does this? After all, God's definitive "Word" came not as a cosmopolitan, global person, but as a Jew at home with and comfortable in His culture (or how much / little of it agreed with God's standards).

Note that I said "sometimes" assumes in the above passage. To be fair, sometimes common-sense hermeneutics is applied with explicit priority given to understanding how the Jew-of-the-day would have understood it. When this happens, however, it happens with suspicious inconsistency: creationists love expounding on what "evening and morning" would have meant to the Jew, but why not the "firmament" (a solid dome above a flat earth, not outer space!) or the "waters" of Genesis 1:2 (objectification of chaos, not a large primeval outer-space ball of H2O!)? It is clear that we are dealing with a myth here, which never falsifies itself, and thus picks and chooses at what supports it.

3. Moralization of scientific statements

One clear foundation of creationist thought is the idea that certain scientific statements are inextricably linked to certain ethical viewpoints. We have already seen an example of this above: the fact that "evolution requires death" (scientific statement) automatically implies that "evolution is cruel" (moral statement). Another famous example is how some creationists predicate that since evolution is based on survival of the fittest (scientific statement, which by the way is not entirely true and nearly always misconstrued), evolution requires us to act purely out of self-preservation instead of observing any moral values (moral statement). If man evolved from apes (scientific statement), it shows that God did not create man (moral / spiritual statement). Etc.

Of course, there are in certain cases particular methods of scientific research which raise ethical concerns, for example embryonic stem cell research and medical trials. Having said that, scientific facts do not have intrinsic moral value. This is because moral value has to be assigned by a set of moral guidelines, which are philosophical constructs and not scientific constructs. A single scientific fact can be interpreted in mutiple ways from different moral perspectives. For example, to a geocentrist, the scientific statement "the Earth orbits the Sun" carries a moral value "rejection of God's word", but a heliocentrist attaches no such moral valuation to the same statement. Scientific statements are subjugated to philosophical frameworks.

Often creationists are heard to say "Such-and-such-a-statement disagrees with my moral values." What has actually happened is that the creationist is not objecting to the scientific statement itself, but to the perceived philosophical framework which is bundled to it. A good example is the tongue-twisting creationist caricature of evolution, "goo-to-you-via-the-zoo". When creationists object to it, saying that "God couldn't possibly have used that!" (moral statement), what have they actually objected to? They are really objecting to the atheistic evolutionist myth. This myth claims that since we came "from goo" and "via the zoo", therefore we don't have more value than either. So what creationists are rejecting is not the scientific concepts of goo and zoo, but the atheistic philosophy which they have subconsciously and tightly bound to these two. Whereas a TE can live with this statement because they reject the atheistic evolutionist evaluation of goo and zoo, but believe that even if God used lower materials to create humanity, the humanity is not in any way degraded for the fact.

Interestingly, the creationist movement recognizes the importance of identifying opposing, unprovable presuppositions as shown in the two articles quoted last time. But why don't they identify the same phenomenon working in their rejection of certain scientific statements: that they are not rejecting science itself (which can be retained) but the presuppositions attached?

3.1. Conflating methodology and ontology

This is a subclass of assigning ethical value to scientific statements, but it is so fundamental that it deserves a section all on its own. I am referring of course to the creationist tendency to equate methodological naturalism to ontological naturalism. In fact, it sometimes seems that creationism doesn't even recognize any difference, so that it can glibly condemn "naturalism" without taking a proper look at whether it is firing at the convenient assumption of methodological naturalism or the overarching paradigm of ontological naturalism.

There is of course a world of difference. Methodological naturalism is simply the convenient assumption that supernatural occurences cannot be studied by science. Ontological naturalism is inspired by scientism to go further and say that therefore supernatural occurences do not exist. It is clearly possible to believe methodological naturalism without making it an ontological directive: naturalism can be the consequence of God's divine order instead of atheistic, naturally-existing order. Science never excludes God, it just shows that whatever God is doing in the universe seems to be so orderly that we can make powerful and wide generalizations about it.

To be fair, this didn't start with the creationists. It really started with scientism and atheism. When scientism (only scientific facts are true and real) mixes with methodological naturalism (supernatural occurences are not scientific), ontological naturalism is the most natural ;) result - supernatural occurences are not true or real, which was then seized upon by atheism to claim that their science showed that the supernatural was not real. To make things worse, scientists so frequently proclaim things from a naturalistic viewpoint that their collective image has been inextricably linked with ontological naturalism due to their frequent use of methodological naturalism. This conflation was something the atheists started, and so the creationists cannot be blamed for it. But they are at fault for perpetuating it and making it a crucial part of their fight against evolution ("science is man saying he knows better than God!"). Scientific creationism seems to be stuck with an arsenal of weapons manufactured by the enemy.

The most important consequence of this is of course the deep-seated creationist suspicion against conventional science. Since it's all done by atheists, or at least from an atheist viewpoint (since the scientists' methodological naturalism looks like ontological naturalism to them, no matter what they actually believe), how can any of it be believable? This rejection of science often comes not from concrete knowledge of the science involved but a sub-scientific rejection of the presuppositions they assume went into finding it.

---------

It is important in dealing with creationism to first defuse the matrix that fuels it. The flip side is true: most often we reject creationism not because of evidence for or against, but because its intrinsic presuppositions rankle against ours. Thus, as AiG and other creationist organizations recognize, the evidence isn't actually the issue. A preponderance of evidence will never convince the creationist, who due to his matrix of presuppositions will never see it as valid evidence. So it is necessary to first take a deep, critical look at those presuppositions together before any reasonable dialogue can take place.

[trailer:]
But if the evidence isn't the issue ... why is at least 90% of creationism "evidence against evolution"?
[/trailer]
 
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Willtor

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I think point #1 is really important because there are profound theological implications, and it sort of turns around the argument, "Man is saying he knows better than God!" From my view, it comes from a "God is man, writ large," idealistic perspective. Idealism is virtuous when one shares the ideals with the idealist. But ideals really are human constructs. And I don't think they are conducive to knowing God better.

Good thoughts, Shernren.

Actually, I wouldn't mind getting some YEC input. It doesn't have to be a complete rebuttle, but I'd like to get a general sense as to what the YEC community (or any YEC in general) makes of this.
 
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Katarn

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This post is specifically addressed to shernren as I don't particularly like the idea of four or so people responding to my post as I can't get around to replying to them all.

shernren,

You said:
2. Evolutionists are either dirty atheists or lousy compromising Christians, who know nuts about the Bible. (Which is untrue, as can be witnessed on this forum.)

I take it then that chaoschristian wouldn't be the number one evidence you would put forward to support such a position given what I perceive to be un-Christ like words in his previous post (which is what I describe as 'nothing more than silly unsubstantiated tripe')... Mocking perhaps? :sigh: Just an observation. No different than the atheists in the open creation/evolution forum.

While you may know quite a bit about the Bible, you fail to realise [or refuse to acknowledge] how it is written and intended to be read and more importantly you either fail to or refuse to look at the consequences for what you are enspousing. I'd say that more accurately, it would be that many theistic evolutionists know 'nuts' about the language context (e.g. the Hebrew word 'yom' for day) and how it works as well as looking logically at the consequences of particular views.

BTW, theistic evolutionists would be 'clean atheists' not 'dirty atheists' as [Christian theistic evolutionists] have supposedly been washed in the blood of the lamb (of course, this is meant to be taken figuratively as common sense tells us). :) You people, IMO, are either completely desperate to incorporate evolution into the Bible that you ignore 99.99% of the Bible or you are trying to be too religious by looking for deeper messages in the Bible that quite simply, aren't there. The Bible is a simple book written by simple man for simple man. God would have no purpose in inspiring a book that man cannot relate to or completely understand. That would be really stupid of an omniscient God. It is not intended by God to be a complex piece of work, but one that is simple to understand such that all men can understand that they are sinners and totally depraved by themselves, that they need a Saviour, and that Jesus shed His blood to pay the penalty for their sins. Just an observation... ^_^ Many people try to complexise and religiousise Christianity and the Bible. Don't do it!

I'll answer your point 1 in your last post later on as it addressed a point I brought up in my previous post. It's almost bed time here. A few Bible Scriptures will basically totally destroy your argument into tiny pieces (no offense). You see, this is where the theistic evolutionists always go down in a firey ball, you either don't realise or can't realise that the Bible itself destroys the very thing that you argue for. Such is your devotion to evolution that you are 'blinded' of the clear truth as represented in the Bible (probably much to the devil's glee). You say one thing, the Bible says something totally contradictory (and non-believers pick up on this).

It's as Pastor Greg Laurie said on a recent radio broadcast when asked by a believer something to the effect of: "What if I find something in the Bible that I don't agree with?" Pastor Greg [paraphrasely] replied: "Then you have to change your views to match the Bible's view because your view is wrong." That's how its supposed to be.

Finally, I saw this:

But if the evidence isn't the issue ... why is at least 90% of creationism "evidence against evolution"?

You have a common misunderstanding of what is going on here. The scientific data (e.g. fossils, mutations, rocks, etc) by its very nature has no voice and can't imply anything. It would deny logic to argue other wise, but we'll see the responses first. Ten bucks someone'll try to debunk this point. ^_^ By itself [the scientific data] is in effect meaningless (just like 'data' in computer terms). [Data in computer terms] is merely a lot of numbers and so on. The data only becomes meaningful when it is interpreted and given meaning by humans, which we call then call 'information'. Similarly, it is also true with the scientific data. Scientists come and look at the scientific data (which by itself has no meaning and no information; i.e. 'meaningless') and interpret it (in historical science such as origins, there is much more room for the personal beliefs of the scientist to creep into his work through the often present unknowns and gaps between fact and guesswork) often based on an underlying belief system to reach a conclusion. This conclusion (i.e. the interpretation of the scientific data) then becomes 'evidence' for or against a particular view. An Answers In Genesis article explains it differently and probably better. This is just a short off the top of my head view.

If you will, it isn't so much the scientific data that is debated in origins science (because it is the same for both parties, e.g. same fossils) so much as the interpretation of that scientific data (which is heavily affected by the preconceived beliefs of the scientist). Put simply, it is a battle of philosophies - Christianity vs. 'secularism'. For example, an atheist will never and can never accept that the Earth is young as with such a position, his beliefs in time, chance, luck, time, time, chance, time, etc, become impossible and thus the logical consequence is a belief in God or some other supernatural being or force.
 
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gluadys

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Katarn said:
This post is specifically addressed to shernren as I don't particularly like the idea of four or so people responding to my post as I can't get around to replying to them all.

Well, sorry about replying then, but a debate board is not the place for a one-on-one conversation. You are welcome to amalgamate responses when people make similar points. I will not make a detailed response, just a few notes on some specific points.


While you may know quite a bit about the Bible, you fail to realise [or refuse to acknowledge] how it is written and intended to be read and more importantly you either fail to or refuse to look at the consequences for what you are enspousing.

From a TE POV the same can be said for creationists. The refusal to delve into the cultural context in which a text was written and/or the insistence that a literal reading is always a preferred reading is IMO a failure to realise or recognize how a text is written or intended to be read.


You people, IMO, are either completely desperate to incorporate evolution into the Bible that you ignore 99.99% of the Bible

Actually, my experience is that creationists assume TEs are trying to incorporate evolution into the bible. Or they demand to see evolution addressed in the bible. Most (not all) TEs recognize that the biblical writers knew nothing of evolution and did not speak to the issue of evolution.


The Bible is a simple book written by simple man for simple man.

That is simply not true. Yes, some biblical truths are simple and presented simply. But the bible as a whole is not at all a simple book. Nor were the writers necessarily simple men. Amos may have been a simple shepherd and orchardist, and Peter a simple fisherman, but people like Jeremiah, Qoheleth and Paul were highly educated priests, nobles and theologians. And the bible was written for all, the simple and the not-so-simple. The infant Christian is encouraged to feed on the pure milk of the Word, but is also expected to mature to the point of being able to chew on its meat.


It's as Pastor Greg Laurie said on a recent radio broadcast when asked by a believer something to the effect of: "What if I find something in the Bible that I don't agree with?" Pastor Greg [paraphrasely] replied: "Then you have to change your views to match the Bible's view because your view is wrong." That's how its supposed to be.

I wonder what his response would be if the question had been "What if I find something to be true, but the bible disagrees with it?"


By itself [the scientific data] is in effect meaningless (just like 'data' in computer terms). [Data in computer terms] is merely a lot of numbers and so on. The data only becomes meaningful when it is interpreted and given meaning by humans, which we call then call 'information'. Similarly, it is also true with the scientific data. Scientists come and look at the scientific data (which by itself has no meaning and no information; i.e. 'meaningless') and interpret it (in historical science such as origins, there is much more room for the personal beliefs of the scientist to creep into his work through the often present unknowns and gaps between fact and guesswork) often based on an underlying belief system to reach a conclusion. This conclusion (i.e. the interpretation of the scientific data) then becomes 'evidence' for or against a particular view. An Answers In Genesis article explains it differently and probably better. This is just a short off the top of my head view.

Creationists often make this claim, but I notice they seldom provide alternative interpretations which explain the observed evidence. It is not enough, for example, to assert that fossil evidence can be explained by the flood. It is incumbent on someone who makes that claim to show in detail (at least equivalent to the detailed explanations of geologists and paleontologists) how it explains the fossil record e.g. how it explains why some strata contain trilobites and others don't, why some strata contain pollen and others don't. In the case of footprints, one should be able to explain whether they were made in pre-flood or post-flood sediments. Or how they could have been made and preserved in mid-flood.

If you will, it isn't so much the scientific data that is debated in origins science (because it is the same for both parties, e.g. same fossils) so much as the interpretation of that scientific data (which is heavily affected by the preconceived beliefs of the scientist). Put simply, it is a battle of philosophies - Christianity vs. 'secularism'. For example, an atheist will never and can never accept that the Earth is young as with such a position, his beliefs in time, chance, luck, time, time, chance, time, etc, become impossible and thus the logical consequence is a belief in God or some other supernatural being or force.

This is just playing the evolution = atheism card, and in a Christian only forum, that is not only false, it is hurtful to Christians who do not agree with you on this issue.
 
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Dannager

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Katarn said:
This post is specifically addressed to shernren as I don't particularly like the idea of four or so people responding to my post as I can't get around to replying to them all.
I won't respond to the rest of your post, as requested, but do note that this is a public debate board. If you wish to carry on a private conversation without the comment of others there are channels through which that can be accomplished. Otherwise, be prepared to have others offer up their opinions and criticisms. That is how discussion and debate boards function.
 
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chaoschristian

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Katarn said:
I take it then that chaoschristian wouldn't be the number one evidence you would put forward to support such a position given what I perceive to be un-Christ like words in his previous post (which is what I describe as 'nothing more than silly unsubstantiated tripe')... Mocking perhaps? :sigh: Just an observation. No different than the atheists in the open creation/evolution forum.

If you are going to challenge my faith, then please be forthright enough to do so to me directly, rather than as an aside in a post to another person that you immediately attempt to make a 'private affair' as if it were a PM and not a post on an public forum.

However, since you seem off-put by having some many folks refuting you at once, I'll hold the door open for shernren so that he can address you himself.
 
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shernren

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This post is specifically addressed to shernren as I don't particularly like the idea of four or so people responding to my post as I can't get around to replying to them all.

Well, it's up to them if they want to reply or not. I suppose you don't have to reply to them. But I am not the most knowledgeable TE around, and in many spheres of knowledge they know more than me. You may find it more stimulating to talk to them.

Well, from the bottom-up then...

You have a common misunderstanding of what is going on here. The scientific data (e.g. fossils, mutations, rocks, etc) by its very nature has no voice and can't imply anything. It would deny logic to argue other wise, but we'll see the responses first. Ten bucks someone'll try to debunk this point. ^_^ By itself [the scientific data] is in effect meaningless (just like 'data' in computer terms). [Data in computer terms] is merely a lot of numbers and so on. The data only becomes meaningful when it is interpreted and given meaning by humans, which we call then call 'information'. Similarly, it is also true with the scientific data. Scientists come and look at the scientific data (which by itself has no meaning and no information; i.e. 'meaningless') and interpret it (in historical science such as origins, there is much more room for the personal beliefs of the scientist to creep into his work through the often present unknowns and gaps between fact and guesswork) often based on an underlying belief system to reach a conclusion. This conclusion (i.e. the interpretation of the scientific data) then becomes 'evidence' for or against a particular view. An Answers In Genesis article explains it differently and probably better. This is just a short off the top of my head view.

If you will, it isn't so much the scientific data that is debated in origins science (because it is the same for both parties, e.g. same fossils) so much as the interpretation of that scientific data (which is heavily affected by the preconceived beliefs of the scientist). Put simply, it is a battle of philosophies - Christianity vs. 'secularism'. For example, an atheist will never and can never accept that the Earth is young as with such a position, his beliefs in time, chance, luck, time, time, chance, time, etc, become impossible and thus the logical consequence is a belief in God or some other supernatural being or force.

I know, I know. I mentioned this back in my second article. I am aware that some people interpret creationism that way. But I am sure that you know, as well, of other people who believe in creationism because of creationist "evidence", and reject evolution because they reject evolutionary "evidence". Putting in italics because that is quite the opposite of what I see in creationists' claims like yours.

Originally I had intended the third post to be on precisely that. But I refrained ... I need more time to think through and figure out just how creationists think. That is the whole purpose of this thread. Creationists are complex, and their thinking quite often seems counterintuitive to us who disagree. And yet their thinking must seem intuitive to them, for otherwise why would they believe it? Don't assume that all I am doing is "debunking" creationism. I also want to understand it. I know that in my Christian walk I will meet many creationists, and as a brother in Christ I must understand as much about them as possible, in order to be able to edify and uplift them as a brother without stepping on their toes too much. That is partly the purpose of my postings: by identifying what is unique to creationism, perhaps indirectly I can figure out what common ground we have and how I can strengthen them.

It's as Pastor Greg Laurie said on a recent radio broadcast when asked by a believer something to the effect of: "What if I find something in the Bible that I don't agree with?" Pastor Greg [paraphrasely] replied: "Then you have to change your views to match the Bible's view because your view is wrong." That's how its supposed to be.

The question is ... what is the Bible's view? How do we know for sure that it is really what the Bible is saying?

People have believed at various times that the Bible's view on things is:
geocentrism
slavery
conversion-or-massacre ("compel them to go in!")
silence of women in church

I am not arguing that these are right interpretations of Scripture. But they are interpretations of Scripture that seemed very valid and very commonsense to the people who believed in them. And I know that as a modern Christian you disagree with their interpretation. Let's say you go and try to argue one of them out of, say, geocentrism by showing scientific evidence that the earth goes around the sun. And they turn around and say to you, "If you don't agree with the Bible's geocentrism, then you have to change your view to match the Bible's, because the Bible teaches geocentrism!"

Wouldn't you then say to them, "I do believe in the Bible, but I don't believe it teaches geocentrism!"?

That is all we are saying. We are not denying the Bible. We never do. But even as we believe in the Bible, we don't believe that it teaches creationism, not without the interference of some very modern paradigms.

I'll answer your point 1 in your last post later on as it addressed a point I brought up in my previous post. It's almost bed time here. A few Bible Scriptures will basically totally destroy your argument into tiny pieces (no offense). You see, this is where the theistic evolutionists always go down in a firey ball, you either don't realise or can't realise that the Bible itself destroys the very thing that you argue for. Such is your devotion to evolution that you are 'blinded' of the clear truth as represented in the Bible (probably much to the devil's glee). You say one thing, the Bible says something totally contradictory (and non-believers pick up on this).

Be my guest.

BTW, theistic evolutionists would be 'clean atheists' not 'dirty atheists' as [Christian theistic evolutionists] have supposedly been washed in the blood of the lamb (of course, this is meant to be taken figuratively as common sense tells us). :) You people, IMO, are either completely desperate to incorporate evolution into the Bible that you ignore 99.99% of the Bible or you are trying to be too religious by looking for deeper messages in the Bible that quite simply, aren't there. The Bible is a simple book written by simple man for simple man. God would have no purpose in inspiring a book that man cannot relate to or completely understand. That would be really stupid of an omniscient God. It is not intended by God to be a complex piece of work, but one that is simple to understand such that all men can understand that they are sinners and totally depraved by themselves, that they need a Saviour, and that Jesus shed His blood to pay the penalty for their sins. Just an observation... ^_^ Many people try to complexise and religiousise Christianity and the Bible. Don't do it!

Note again the fallacy of personal projection:

God would have no purpose in inspiring a book that man cannot relate to or completely understand. That would be really stupid of an omniscient God.

There really is no force in this argument without either the implied intermediate step of personal projection ("I would be stupid if I did such a thing, therefore God would be stupid if He did such a thing"), or express witness from Scripture that God's character and attributes are as such. But I do agree partially with you and I will quote Scripture showing to what extent you are right.

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
(2 Timothy 3:16-17 ESV)

The Scripture really is for the purpose of equipping God's people for every good work. God did want to write a book man would understand and learn how to teach, reprove, correct, and train in righteousness from. But does this imply that God's word is simple?

And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: "'You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive. For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.' But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. Truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
(Matthew 13:11-17 ESV)


We have here firsthand, direct speech from Jesus that on occasions He wished people to not understand. We all know the standard interpretation of this: the parables were a little difficult, so that to someone who doesn't put in much thought about what they are saying they seem to be complicated and difficult, but to someone who thinks deeply about them, they have shown that they are truly interested in the Kingdom of God, and therefore by God's illumination the parables seem simple to them.

So, is it "stupid" after all for God to write something simple and intended for people's edification ... in complex language? It's a little like encryption. I may write an email as simple as "I love you", but someone who intercepts it on the way will read out only gibberish if the encryption in between has done its job. I have had very good reason to write something simple very complicated-ly.

Now these [Berean] Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
(Acts 17:11 ESV)

"Examining" here is anakrinontes, literally "to scrutinize", a word which is also used in a legal setting to denote interrogative questioning of a witness or a defendant. If the Scriptures really were that "simple", would the Bereans need to "scrutinize" them to support Paul's teachings? Furthermore, we may infer from the contrast and comparison that the Thessalonians were less noble because they did not examine the Scriptures: what they thought they knew about the Scriptures, by their common-sense interpretations, they held to, and it motivated them to throw Paul out and beat up the man who had housed him, accusing the whole lot of "turning the whole world upside down".

So the Thessalonian Jews trusted in their common-sense interpretation of Scripture, didn't bother to scrutinize it, found Paul's new doctrines unScriptural, and threw the whole lot out.
While the Berean Jews scrutinized Scripture, motivated by new doctrine to see if they had actually missed out anything, and therefore many of them believed.

I wonder if this is exactly how the Thessalonian Jews would have agitated and stirred up the crowds: You people, IMO, are either completely desperate to incorporate Paul into the Bible that you ignore 99.99% of the Bible or you are trying to be too religious by looking for deeper messages in the Bible that quite simply, aren't there.

Here is more interesting discussion on whether the Bible is supposed to be "simple" or not, perhaps you'd be interested: Perspicuity.

And theistic evolutionists do not try to read evolution into the Bible. Evolution is a scientific theory and it does not need Biblical support any more than relativity or quantum mechanics need Biblical support. But what we are saying is that there are readings of the Bible which are in harmony with an evolutionary understanding of the world's origins. There is a difference.

While you may know quite a bit about the Bible, you fail to realise [or refuse to acknowledge] how it is written and intended to be read and more importantly you either fail to or refuse to look at the consequences for what you are enspousing. I'd say that more accurately, it would be that many theistic evolutionists know 'nuts' about the language context (e.g. the Hebrew word 'yom' for day) and how it works as well as looking logically at the consequences of particular views.

Don't get us confused with the Day-Age crowd ... we're a completely different people intellectually. No TE denies that yom is a 24-hour day in Genesis 1 ... a 24-hour day in the context of a mythological week.

And there are TEs, including me, who go about the business of Bible study and discussion here by quoting from the Greek and looking into the possible meanings of the "actual words".

TEs are often very much aware of where we're coming from in terms of the understanding of myth, scripture, and pre-scientific culture and God's apparent methods of communication through accommodation. Whereas on the other hand it is often creationists who come into the forums believing that they have a "face-value" interpretation without realizing that such an interpretation is next to impossible and that their interpretation is heavily flavoured by post-Enlightenment rationalism, historicism, empiricism, etc.

I take it then that chaoschristian wouldn't be the number one evidence you would put forward to support such a position given what I perceive to be un-Christ like words in his previous post (which is what I describe as 'nothing more than silly unsubstantiated tripe')... Mocking perhaps? :sigh: Just an observation. No different than the atheists in the open creation/evolution forum.

And I suppose it is more Christian to call a post "silly unsubstantiated tripe"?
 
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Katarn

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shernren:

Well, it's up to them if they want to reply or not. I suppose you don't have to reply to them. But I am not the most knowledgeable TE around, and in many spheres of knowledge they know more than me. You may find it more stimulating to talk to them.

You seem to have quite a reputation around here though. I am mainly responding to you at present because this is your thread and you put forward some interesting ideas.

I don't like the idea of having four theistic evolutionists responses for one creationist... Two at most is okay.

That is partly the purpose of my postings: by identifying what is unique to creationism, perhaps indirectly I can figure out what common ground we have and how I can strengthen them.

Well, some obvious common ground between you and I is our belief in the Gospel message. Start from there. Why did Jesus need to have His blood shed for the remission of our sins? What does this mean? What is sin? Why is man sinful?

Other than that, we both use the same science, the same observations, the same scientific data, etc. Only the interpretations of the data are different and this is because we have vastly different presuppositional rationales.



The question is ... what is the Bible's view? How do we know for sure that it is really what the Bible is saying?

People have believed at various times that the Bible's view on things is:
geocentrism
slavery
conversion-or-massacre ("compel them to go in!")
silence of women in church

Once again, notice what these things are. Geocentrism is an idea from outside the Bible. The Greeks were strong believers in geocentrism, and the universities through the centuries have taught this as 'scientific fact' and thus many religious people not knowing any better shoved it into the Bible and tried to justify it from the Bible. Then Galileo comes along and they get into trouble! This is merely an idea from outside the Bible being made to fit to the Bible by Christians, a lot like some theistic evolutionists. The Bible does not teach geocentrism, rather Joshua's long day implies heliocentrism. In fact, the mention of the moon also standing still seems to confirm both the divine authorship of the account and the fact that it is the Earth which moves. Since all Joshua needed was extra sunlight, and most ancients believed the sun moves, not the Earth, a human author of a fictitious account would only have needed to refer to the sun stopping.

Slavery was perfectly legal and the 'norm' in the culture in which the Bible books were written. Rather than totally turn the culture up on its head with 'extremist' views like "Slavery is evil" and "Stop slavery" which would have by far taken the focus of the early church off Jesus and scared potential converts away, they include Christian teaching into slavery, e.g. treat your slaves like brothers, etc, etc. Similarly with women, you have to look at how the culture viewed them. If the early Christian church were to come out with radical statements enspousing change and so on, the focus would be off Jesus and as I said above, would possibly scare potential converts away. Like slavery, the Apostles teach Christian morality into the issue of women (e.g. Paul's teachings on husband and wife).

Many fail to realise this and consequently their knowledge of Scripture and what it means is distorted.

I am not arguing that these are right interpretations of Scripture. But they are interpretations of Scripture that seemed very valid and very commonsense to the people who believed in them. And I know that as a modern Christian you disagree with their interpretation. Let's say you go and try to argue one of them out of, say, geocentrism by showing scientific evidence that the earth goes around the sun. And they turn around and say to you, "If you don't agree with the Bible's geocentrism, then you have to change your view to match the Bible's, because the Bible teaches geocentrism!"

Wouldn't you then say to them, "I do believe in the Bible, but I don't believe it teaches geocentrism!"?

That is all we are saying. We are not denying the Bible. We never do. But even as we believe in the Bible, we don't believe that it teaches creationism, not without the interference of some very modern paradigms.

Tell me then, from a literal interpretation as from what I defined in a previous post, what does Genesis teach?

Secondly, then point out why [from Scripture] we should not take Genesis literally (in the sense of my previous post)?

There really is no force in this argument without either the implied intermediate step of personal projection ("I would be stupid if I did such a thing, therefore God would be stupid if He did such a thing"), or express witness from Scripture that God's character and attributes are as such. But I do agree partially with you and I will quote Scripture showing to what extent you are right.

But tell me, why would you write something in a way that the intended recepitent could not comprehend or understand it? Isn't that pointless? My point is that God is a logical God, so why would He do anything so inheritently illogical and wastefully?

The Scripture really is for the purpose of equipping God's people for every good work. God did want to write a book man would understand and learn how to teach, reprove, correct, and train in righteousness from. But does this imply that God's word is simple?

And apart of that purpose is having a good Biblical foundation with correct doctrines, including creation. By simple, I mean it means what it says in most cases. You can use common sense to understand what the Bible is saying. You still have not addressed this point.

We have here firsthand, direct speech from Jesus that on occasions He wished people to not understand. [Scriptural evidence: Matthew 13:11-17]


I don't know where you got that He 'wished people to not understand' from. :scratch: He says that their hearts have grown 'dull' and from this, obviously, nothing Jesus said would reach them to convey that He is the Messiah.

We all know the standard interpretation of this: the parables were a little difficult, so that to someone who doesn't put in much thought about what they are saying they seem to be complicated and difficult, but to someone who thinks deeply about them, they have shown that they are truly interested in the Kingdom of God, and therefore by God's illumination the parables seem simple to them.

So, is it "stupid" after all for God to write something simple and intended for people's edification ... in complex language? It's a little like encryption. I may write an email as simple as "I love you", but someone who intercepts it on the way will read out only gibberish if the encryption in between has done its job. I have had very good reason to write something simple very complicated-ly.

And just who would 'intercept' the Bible? Just then it seems like you have done a good job at this. To determine such wrong views, we look to the rest of Scripture and see whether or not it is consistent. This also has nothing to do with simplicity. One can easily change the meaning in either complex or simple text, as evolutionists have shown time and time again.

Now these [Berean] Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
(Acts 17:11 ESV)

"Examining" here is anakrinontes, literally "to scrutinize", a word which is also used in a legal setting to denote interrogative questioning of a witness or a defendant. If the Scriptures really were that "simple", would the Bereans need to "scrutinize" them to support Paul's teachings? Furthermore, we may infer from the contrast and comparison that the Thessalonians were less noble because they did not examine the Scriptures: what they thought they knew about the Scriptures, by their common-sense interpretations, they held to, and it motivated them to throw Paul out and beat up the man who had housed him, accusing the whole lot of "turning the whole world upside down".

So the Thessalonian Jews trusted in their common-sense interpretation of Scripture, didn't bother to scrutinize it, found Paul's new doctrines unScriptural, and threw the whole lot out. While the Berean Jews scrutinized Scripture, motivated by new doctrine to see if they had actually missed out anything, and therefore many of them believed.

That isn't the impression that I get from the letters by Paul to the Thessalonians. Yes they misunderstood what Paul wrote in his first letter, but he corrects their misunderstanding in his second.

I wonder if this is exactly how the Thessalonian Jews would have agitated and stirred up the crowds: You people, IMO, are either completely desperate to incorporate Paul into the Bible that you ignore 99.99% of the Bible or you are trying to be too religious by looking for deeper messages in the Bible that quite simply, aren't there.

Once again, nothing more than unsubstantiated and quite humorless. For one, the opposition from Jews came about not [primarly] because of the Gospel message that Paul was preaching so much as their jealously of Paul's success in preaching the Christian message among the non-Jews who had become interested in Judaism. Later on, there was some confusion, especially from the Gentiles who did not have the Jewish background. You must remember at this time about 51 A.D. the Gospels and New Testament had not yet been writen and hence confusion on issues that were not specifically addressed was to be expected. Particularly with questions like when Jesus would return.

Here is more interesting discussion on whether the Bible is supposed to be "simple" or not, perhaps you'd be interested: Perspicuity.

And theistic evolutionists do not try to read evolution into the Bible. Evolution is a scientific theory and it does not need Biblical support any more than relativity or quantum mechanics need Biblical support. But what we are saying is that there are readings of the Bible which are in harmony with an evolutionary understanding of the world's origins. There is a difference.

Yes, one would think that many theistic evolutionists would have to have a Scriptural basis of sorts - or are you taking man's word above that of God? You say that there are 'readings of the Bible which are in harmony with an evolutionary understanding of the world's origins' but you either refuse to acknowledge or cannot understand that your 'reading' of the Bible is heavily influenced by your in effect religious belief in evolution and through that, you do not understand the culture and writing practices of the Hebrews in particular.

What you [theistic evolutionists] in effect do is start off with the presupposition: Evolution is true. Then you proceed to say that the Genesis account is not meant to be taken literally (often without reasonable evidence, if not, feel free to prove me wrong), all other references to the Genesis account (e.g. Jesus) must also be wrong or portraying truth through falsehood, and so on. You start off with an idea outside the Bible and try to base your understanding of the Bible on that basis. Consequently evolution is contradicted by Scripture at every point.

However, we start off with no preconceived beliefs from outside the Bible when we read the Bible and with our acknowledgement of the way in which the Bible was written and intended to be read we come up with the Genesis account which is 100% consistent with all Scripture as I'll show to a certain extent in a later post.

And I suppose it is more Christian to call a post "silly unsubstantiated tripe"?

When it is righfully due as it was. Jesus went to town with the Pharasees and teachers of the law calling them snakes, vipers, hypocrites, children of the devil, and so on. That latter one was a really harsh comment. Was that 'bad' or 'evil'? No, there is such a thing as righteous anger which itself is not 'bad' or sinful. I don't particularly like being mocked for no reason, hence the unsubstantiated remark. Because it is unsubstantiated, it is then silly and nothing more than rubbish (tripe).

GTG.
 
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shernren

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I don't like the idea of having four theistic evolutionists responses for one creationist... Two at most is okay.

You're at perfect liberty to not respond to them, especially since you've made it clear that it is not meant as an insult to do so. :)

Well, some obvious common ground between you and I is our belief in the Gospel message. Start from there. Why did Jesus need to have His blood shed for the remission of our sins? What does this mean? What is sin? Why is man sinful?

Man is sinful because he has continually rejected and rebelled against God's commands and express will for him. Jesus came to save us from our sins by paying the penalty on the cross, demonstrating God's vast love (so that His death was both propitiatory and didactic), and sending to us the Holy Spirit to begin the work of sanctification which will be completed when we are resurrected into spiritual bodies.

None of this contrary to evolution.

But tell me, why would you write something in a way that the intended recepitent could not comprehend or understand it? Isn't that pointless? My point is that God is a logical God, so why would He do anything so inheritently illogical and wastefully?

How do you know that you are the intended recipient? To me, it seems that God spoke to the Jews in their own code and language: in the cultural paradigms of that day, through the analogy of the suzerainty agreement, by subverting the order-chaos myths of the time to make His message clear. And if we want to understand how God would have talked to us today, we need to decode His message to the Jews.

I must add that I believe that by the Holy Spirit's intervention and divine grace the essentials of the Christian message are very clear. The images ("code") which the Bible uses to portray it are close enough to us. Furthermore, the Western culture was founded (and still is, in its most basic fundamentals) on Scriptural concepts concerning humanity. This makes the essentials of Scripture extremely clear to those who read it. Having said that, I don't consider young-earth creationism an essential of Scripture, though I'm sure you do.

However, we start off with no preconceived beliefs from outside the Bible when we read the Bible and with our acknowledgement of the way in which the Bible was written and intended to be read we come up with the Genesis account which is 100% consistent with all Scripture as I'll show to a certain extent in a later post.

No preconceived beliefs? With all due respect, I find that highly unlikely. Reposting from #14:

Take Genesis 1: "In the beginning God created the heavens ... " which is enough to demonstrate the problem. Whose heavens?

To you, "the heavens" are outer space, stars, galaxies, the solar system.
To pre-Copernicans, "the heavens" were the planets and the sun and the moon making perfect circular orbits around the earth, all encased by a dark sphere with holes punched in it from which the light of God's heaven shone through. (And the "solar system" was a heresy.)
To the ancient Jews, "the heavens" were a solid dome above the earth which was covered by water, hence its being blue.

So whose interpretation is literal? You think yours is literal and the others' aren't? A "literal" pre-Copernican or a "literal" Jew would think you were the non-literal one.

All interpretations are informed by some sort of world-view. There is no such thing as the naked Scripture: Scripture always comes to us clothed in our own ideas as we read it.

I could go on further and further. What earth - a flat one or a round one? Which fish - did they include the dolphins and the whales and the amphibians?

It is impossible to read anything without referring back to your own private interpretive paradigm. Here's a clever trick: If you assume that you are reading the Bible without any presuppositions, you are presupposing that it is possible to not have any presuppositions. but that itself is a presupposition, too! But I don't have to go that far to show the folly. As you said yourself:

Other than that, we both use the same science, the same observations, the same scientific data, etc. Only the interpretations of the data are different and this is because we have vastly different presuppositional rationales.

We have the same Scriptural data, do we not? It is only because you have began from a Rationalist, post-Enlightenment paradigm that you consider a mythical interpretation to be inferior. This was not always the case, in medieval theological interpretation allegorical interpretation was one of the default means of interpreting Scripture.

Once again, notice what these things are. Geocentrism is an idea from outside the Bible. The Greeks were strong believers in geocentrism, and the universities through the centuries have taught this as 'scientific fact' and thus many religious people not knowing any better shoved it into the Bible and tried to justify it from the Bible. Then Galileo comes along and they get into trouble! This is merely an idea from outside the Bible being made to fit to the Bible by Christians, a lot like some theistic evolutionists. The Bible does not teach geocentrism, rather Joshua's long day implies heliocentrism. In fact, the mention of the moon also standing still seems to confirm both the divine authorship of the account and the fact that it is the Earth which moves. Since all Joshua needed was extra sunlight, and most ancients believed the sun moves, not the Earth, a human author of a fictitious account would only have needed to refer to the sun stopping.

And isn't heliocentrism also an idea from outside the Bible? That's the entire problem. Some people believe in geocentrism, and when they read the Bible, they find verses which seem to make sense in a geocentric viewpoint, and so say that the Bible supports geocentrism. You believe in heliocentrism, and you find a verse which seems to make sense in a heliocentric viewpoint, and so say that the Bible supports heliocentrism, or at least suggests it. But is what you are doing any different from what they did, and how?

Yes, one would think that many theistic evolutionists would have to have a Scriptural basis of sorts - or are you taking man's word above that of God? You say that there are 'readings of the Bible which are in harmony with an evolutionary understanding of the world's origins' but you either refuse to acknowledge or cannot understand that your 'reading' of the Bible is heavily influenced by your in effect religious belief in evolution and through that, you do not understand the culture and writing practices of the Hebrews in particular.

We don't understand the culture and writing practices of the Hebrews? How is it then that when I bring up the analogy between the order-chaos conflict of Genesis and the order-chaos conflict in similar origins myths from surrounding cultures, evolutionists know what I'm talking about while creationists don't? Why are evolutionists far more interested in Sabbatarianism and Genesis 1's implications for it than creationists (who should have far more interest in it, believing that the first Sabbath of Genesis 1 was a literal one)? In my experience, I know far more about Genesis 1 now than I did as a creationist.

Our belief in evolution is not "religious". There is evidence for evolution. But that's a topic for a completely different discussion. It's up to you whether you want to research and review the evidence yourself, or going to rely on creationist go-betweens to read up on the controversial issues.

Besides, why is there an insistence that Genesis 1 has to be scientifically true to be true? That is the real motivation behind any creationist reading of Genesis 1, is it not? Can I not say, in parallel to your critique of my reading, that your reading is so heavily influenced by your Rationalist understandings of the empiricism and historicality of all truth that you immediately reject any mythical reading as false?

And apart of that purpose is having a good Biblical foundation with correct doctrines, including creation. By simple, I mean it means what it says in most cases. You can use common sense to understand what the Bible is saying. You still have not addressed this point.

Firstly, common sense comes from outside the Bible. So it is an extra-Biblical influence in reading the Bible, and isn't that bad in your book?

Secondly, not all things in the Bible are common-sense-ical. Tell me by common sense what the four living creatures of Ezekiel 1 are and draw me a sketch by common sense. Or tell me by common sense what the baptism of the dead is in 1 Corinthians 15 (which is a foundational passage in the Christian belief of resurrection).

Thirdly, YECism is not a foundational doctrine of Christianity.
 
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chaoschristian

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Katarn said:
When it is righfully due as it was. Jesus went to town with the Pharasees and teachers of the law calling them snakes, vipers, hypocrites, children of the devil, and so on. That latter one was a really harsh comment. Was that 'bad' or 'evil'? No, there is such a thing as righteous anger which itself is not 'bad' or sinful. I don't particularly like being mocked for no reason, hence the unsubstantiated remark. Because it is unsubstantiated, it is then silly and nothing more than rubbish (tripe).

Self-righteousness aside, I call it as I see it. Whether you realize it or not, your initial response to shernren's post was extremely ironic.

Also, tripe is a good food to eat, especially pickled, and not garbage at all - well perhaps to the unaclamated pallete.

Now, I'm staying out of posting in this thread simply so that I don't inadvertantly derail shernren's excellent efforts in responding to katarn. Shernren, keep up the good work.
 
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Micaiah

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So this is a new argument? Sounds like the refutation of a strawman to me.

If Genesis is myth then saying its statements can be taken literally and the record can be scientifically validated doesn't make a lot of sense. But show me one YEC who does this?

The argument rests on the assumption TE's make regarding the interpretation of the first chapters of Genesis. They must assume that the plain historical or literal meaning is wrong. Otherwise they must accept a view of origins that is out of step with popular science. To assert that man's reasoning on origins is plainly at odds with what God clearly teaches in Scripture and is therefore wrong is something no TE will do. Maintaining intellectual respectability in the eyes of the worlds scientific community is for them of paramount importance, and alas their downfall.

They are then left with two options. One is to say that Scripture is wrong, and some of them do this. The other is to say that Scripture is correct, it is just that you have to interpret it as mythology or whatever other word one likes to use thereby dismissing all but the most general messages of the stories related. There is nothing new about this approach. It is as old as TE theology.

It is interesting that a number of the TE's on this forum like to give the impression that they agree with the orthodox Christian position that Scripture is inspired and therefore totally truthful in all that it asserts. Many try to argue the latter option.

The strength of the TE argument that Genesis is mythology comes mostly from claims the account is similar to other myths supposedly doing the rounds at that time. Of course that is not the case. The Genesis account is unique. Any resemblance between stories of origins can often be clearly explained as variants from the true version that was recorded in Genesis. This has been discussed extensively on the YEC websites.

One of the most powerful arguments that TE's could provide to substantiate their argument would be to show that other writers of Scripture who refer to events and people recorded in Genesis clearly understood the text as myth, not to be taken literally. So lets see all the examples from Scripture where this is the case.

The examples where the authors of Scripture plainly acknowledge that Genesis is a record of real events and real people are numerous and obvious to anyone willing to read Scripture honestly and openly. Christ Himself made it clear He interpreted Genesis literally. Furthermore, these references to Genesis are used by the authors as a basis for the doctrines they are expounding. That is one of the main reasons many Christians take strong exception to those who try to dismiss Genesis as myth.

So if Genesis is not myth, then either the inspired authors were telling porkies, or popular science is wrong. YEC's are not a fringe group of believers. They are simply Christians who believe in the true sense of the word that God's word is truthful and reliable and since it provides a historical record of Creation, they accept is as truth. Since it is truth, then science, which is fundamentally our best attempt to learn and understand the truth of our universe, will ultimately confirm God's truth. And that is what many brave, Christian scientists are discovering today.
 
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shernren

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I shan't take the bother of trying to refute the post. See, I wasn't making this thread to defend TEism. TE defenses might have occured as unintended consequences ... but what I was after was really to analyse scientific creationism. And Micaiah's post is perfect fodder.

The argument rests on the assumption TE's make regarding the interpretation of the first chapters of Genesis. They must assume that the plain historical or literal meaning is wrong

Perspicuity: plain meaning exists and is superior. (part III)

Otherwise they must accept a view of origins that is out of step with popular science.

Correlation between scientificity and legitimacy of myth. (part I)
[There have been TEs here who have openly stated that they would still read Genesis 1 as a myth even without any scientific position on origins.]

To assert that man's reasoning on origins is plainly at odds with what God clearly teaches in Scripture and is therefore wrong is something no TE will do. Maintaining intellectual respectability in the eyes of the worlds scientific community is for them of paramount importance, and alas their downfall.

Science as artificial and anthropocentric, Scripture as natural and theocentric. Perfect fodder for a post IV.

They are then left with two options. One is to say that Scripture is wrong, and some of them do this.

Correlation between scientificity and legitimacy of myth. (part I)
[As noted, this also motivates atheistic denunciations of Scripture as irrelevant.]

The other is to say that Scripture is correct, it is just that you have to interpret it as mythology or whatever other word one likes to use thereby dismissing all but the most general messages of the stories related. There is nothing new about this approach. It is as old as TE theology.

Correlation between scientificity and legitimacy of myth. (part I) - a scientific myth is superior to a paradigmatic myth.
Superiority of scientific messages to paradigmatic messages. (part I)

The examples where the authors of Scripture plainly acknowledge that Genesis is a record of real events and real people are numerous and obvious to anyone willing to read Scripture honestly and openly. Christ Himself made it clear He interpreted Genesis literally. Furthermore, these references to Genesis are used by the authors as a basis for the doctrines they are expounding. That is one of the main reasons many Christians take strong exception to those who try to dismiss Genesis as myth.

Interesting PoV I haven't explored: misconstruing a paradigmatic reference to myth as an indicative-historical, and therefore literal-scientific, reference to myth.

YEC's are not a fringe group of believers. They are simply Christians who believe in the true sense of the word that God's word is truthful and reliable

Personal projection of truthfulness and reliability (post III)
Word has one "true sense" i.e. plain meaning (post III)
YECism foundational (post II)

and since it provides a historical record of Creation, they accept is as truth. Since it is truth, then science, which is fundamentally our best attempt to learn and understand the truth of our universe, will ultimately confirm God's truth. And that is what many brave, Christian scientists are discovering today.

Illegitimacy of any kind of truth besides historico-scientific truth (post III).

So the whole of the post can be reduced to a few logical points:

Real truth has to be scientific and historical.
The paradigmatic messages of myths are inferior to their historico-scientific messages.
Scripture has only one right and plain meaning.

And guess how atheists attack Scripture? By using the exact same framework, and they've been doing it long before the days of YECism.

Funny how scientific creationists like brandishing weapons manufactured by the enemy.

[Thanks Micaiah for pointing me in some interesting new avenues for exploring creationist thought. Yes, I am abusing you by denying you your right to have your ideas engaged constructively. You picked a day when I was cranky to show up in the midst of some interesting thought-lines with stuff I've heard before a thousand times. Too bad.

Though there are ways to interpret non-engagement as a privilege.]
 
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Micaiah

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Okay, when you are ready to provide passages from Scripture

One of the most powerful arguments that TE's could provide to substantiate their argument would be to show that other writers of Scripture who refer to events and people recorded in Genesis clearly understood the text as myth, not to be taken literally. So lets see all the examples from Scripture where this is the case.

that support your contention then let me know.

I conclude you have none. God was the only one who was present at the time of Creation. He is the only one qualified to provide an eyewitness account of what actually happened. He has not left us in no doubt about our origins. The authors of Genesis under Divine inspiration provided us with the historical facts that are easily understood by those willing to see.
 
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artybloke

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Real truth has to be scientific and historical.
The paradigmatic messages of myths are inferior to their historico-scientific messages.
Scripture has only one right and plain meaning.

Thank you, Shernren, for your valuable research and thought here. I think it's important to carry on pointing out the basis of "creationist" thinking in materialist, positivistic thought, and I think you're doing a good job.

The whole of creationist thought rests on the twin pillars of Scientism: the idea that scientific truth is "truer" than mythical or spiritual truth; and its seeming opposite, a belief that the evidence of the world isn't real. There's a cognitive dissonance there that's staggering to behold. They attempt to "prove" the Bible "scientifically", then telling us that it doesn't matter, if the Bible says it it must be true and hang what the evidence says.
 
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Numenor

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Micaiah said:
The other is to say that Scripture is correct, it is just that you have to interpret it as mythology or whatever other word one likes to use thereby dismissing all but the most general messages of the stories related. There is nothing new about this approach. It is as old as TE theology.
Which is as old as people like Origen.
 
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