The science of abortion: When does life begin?

[redleghunter]

I would hate for people to think the Gospel is merely about being anti-abortion. Then that would be very cheap grace indeed (honestly, that's sort of what happened with alot of American evangelicalism).

I'm Evangelical and no pro life is not the Gospel message. However an outcropping of the Gospel message of the Kingdom.

As is giving aid to the refugee, helping the sick and poor. Among the many things Evangelicals do the work of Christ on a daily basis.

Just a few examples here:

https://cmda.org/resources/publication/crisis-pregnancy-centers
Pregnancy Centers in PA
Listing Of Crisis Pregnancy Centers In Illinois
Christian Life Resources
Special Delivery | Overlake Christian Church
Top 10 Non Profit Organizations that help Mothers
Creating a Cradle Care Ministry for Expectant & New Parents

These are a few examples of Christian ministries which span all 50 states.

Sanctuary of Hope:

https://www.jhm.org/SOHCares
The above is a grand scale example of after and future care. Others include Catholic charities and Samaritans Purse.

Becoming Adoptive Parents - FAQs
Counseling
Help Protect Vulnerable Women


Here's just one example of a conservative Evangelical charitable organization's ministry:


Help Families Fleeing the Fighting in Mosul

Emergency Field Hospital Sent as Christmas Gift to Iraq

Loving Care for an Orphan | Samaritan’s Purse Gift Catalog

A Brighter Future for Ebola Widows

Women’s Programs

Crisis & Disaster Response

Feeding Programs

Health & Medical Ministries

Water, Sanitation & Hygiene

Children’s Heart Project

Putting a Stop to Human Trafficking

Deadly Earthquake in Nepal

U.S. Disaster Relief

Which I know our Lutheran brethren do as well. By God's Grace.

 

[FireDragon76]

I just mean the general politico-religious movement of christian-based activism, or in modern parlance, "culture war". In that circle, it does seem sometimes that people can assume, for instance, what you think about the legality of abortion is a "church dividing issue", a fellowship issue, as opposed to say, what you believe about the Lord's Supper or about the two natures of Christ. There's some real spiritual confusion there and I think it comes down to failure to distinguish the two kingdoms and Law vs. Gospel. I do not believe being a true Christian necessarily involves being a culture warrior or activist in the sense evangelicals understand the term , but then I guess I am Lutheran and though evangelical, I'm not the type that would characterize my faith by the traditional 4 Marks of Evangelicalism. Activism is more an optional part of Lutheranism, and the 4 Marks are more representative of Anglo-American traditions influenced by puritanism/pietism.

 

[FireDragon76]

The two kingdoms doctrine is one reason I can sometimes take the "atheist side" in debates on this forum, because when it comes to worldly things we as Christians are free to engage in worldly discourse on terms that are common to all of us, ie, what is natural.

 

[redleghunter]

According to a story I heard there was a Catholic priest, a Protestant pastor and a Jewish Rabbi discussing this very thing.

The priest said, Life begins when the baby is born.
The pastor countered him and said, Life begins at the moment of conception.
The rabbi lifted his hands in the air and said, Life begins when the kids go to college and the dog dies.

It's always nice to have an appropriate joke now and then.

 

[Sabertooth]

There's some real spiritual confusion there and I think it comes down to failure to distinguish the two kingdoms and Law vs. Gospel.

That almost sounds like (my understanding of) Gnosticism.

While we bring the message of Amnesty, God still wants us to "do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with Him." "Doing justly" would drive us to either individual intervention, systemic influence, or some combination thereof.

Such activism was responsible for the end of slavery in the US and, if I understand correctly, the UK.

 

[redleghunter]

I just mean the general politico-religious movement of christian-based activism, or in modern parlance, "culture war". In that circle, it does seem sometimes that people can assume, for instance, what you think about the legality of abortion is a "church dividing issue", a fellowship issue, as opposed to say, what you believe about the Lord's Supper or about the two natures of Christ. There's some real spiritual confusion there and I think it comes down to failure to distinguish the two kingdoms and Law vs. Gospel. I do not believe being a true Christian necessarily involves being a culture warrior or activist in the sense evangelicals understand the term , but then I guess I am Lutheran and though evangelical, I'm not the type that would characterize my faith by the traditional 4 Marks of Evangelicalism. Activism is more an optional part of Lutheranism, and the 4 Marks are more representative of Anglo-American traditions influenced by puritanism/pietism.

Baptists and Evangelicals for the most part sat on the sidelines during the formative years of the counterculture. In some cases the traditional churches too.

What we saw in the 80s was a reactionary movement based on years of slumber. Don't think Christians will ever forget they can vote too.

There's nothing wrong with defending held morals as a worldview and voting on such. I'm sure many would love for Christians to hide and cower in their church buildings and become physically separate from the rest of the nation.

 

[FireDragon76]

While we bring the message of Amnesty, God still wants us to "do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with Him." "Doing justly" would drive us to either individual intervention, systemic influence, or some combination thereof.

Such activism is responsible for the end of slavery in the US and, if I understand correctly, the UK.

Of course. But you, as a Christian, have no right to bind anybody's conscience regarding matters of salvation based on their activism or lack thereof, unless it involves a clear threat to Christian faith. "Making a better world" is not a good enough reason.

Again, that's why I can talk to somebody like BubbaJack about religious matters without agreeing with his politics. I don't want to present stumbling blocks merely because certain things about him produce emotional reactions in me.

 

[Sabertooth]

But you, as a Christian, have no right to bind anybody's conscience regarding matters of salvation based on their activism or lack thereof, unless it involves a clear threat to Christian faith. "Making a better world" is not a good enough reason.

Should we wait until everyone is on the same page Theologically before we endeavor to save lives?

 

[redleghunter]

Should we wait until everyone is on the same page Theologically before we endeavor to save lives?

Good point.

 

[Abraxos]

Modern science is crystal clear: at the moment of conception (also known as fertilization) a unique organism comes into existence.
Since this new organism has DNA and is the offspring of human parents, it can only be described as human life.

"It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception." ~ Dr. Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard Medical School.

"I submit that human life is present throughout this entire sequence from conception to adulthood and that any interruption at any point throughout this time constitutes a termination of human life." ~ Dr. Alfred Bongiovanni and professor of pediatrics and obstetrics at University of Pennsylvania.

"By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception." ~ Professor Hymie Gordon, Founder of the Mayo Clinic's Medical Genetics Program.

So what does this all mean? It means that the abortion movement rejects scientific truth.

 

[FireDragon76]

That may surprise you to hear, but I don't actually consider myself completely on board with mainline Protestantism, especially the overwhelming emphasis on the Social Gospel. A minority in the ELCA consider ourselves outside the mainline, even if for convenience I refer to our denomination as that.

Actually, the Social Gospel has more in common with conservative American evangelicalism than I think that you'ld realize at first. It's all about trying to remake the world into an ideal form through political action, very much influenced by post-millenialism and a particular calvinist view of the relationship between church and state and justification and sanctification.

 

[FireDragon76]

Should we wait until everyone is on the same page Theologically before we endeavor to save lives?

No, of course not. But this rhetoric of somebody being a "true Christian" or "not a real Christian" just because they don't endorse the activist fad of the generation, is ridiculous from a Lutheran standpoint.

 

[Sabertooth]

It's all about trying to remake the world into an ideal form through political action, very much influenced by post-millenialism and a particular calvinist view of the relationship between church and state and justification and sanctification.

The motivation that I see in play is observance of Matthew 25:31-46 alongside of Evangelism.

 

[stephen583]

I think life starts before conception.

I agree with "Everybodyknows", not only on a scientific basis, but I believe the Bible makes that point also.

In the Book of Jeremiah God tells the prophet "I knew you before you were ever in your mother's womb" (Jeremiah 1:14).

Before John the Baptist was even conceived, an angel appeared to his father Zechariah and told him John was going to be born (Luke 1:13). Apparently, and according to this story, God already had plans for John before he was even conceived.

So if his mother Elizabeth had used contraceptives to prevent John's birth (If that were possible back then), she would have been interferring with the Will of God, wouldn't she ? So much for the idea using contraceptives isn't a sin, am I right ?

The Bible also says "It's better for a man to plant his seed in the belly of a harlot, than to spill it on the ground".. Doesn't it (Genesis 38:9) ? If the sperm isn't of any consequence until after it has fertilized an egg, "Why does this prohibition exist in the Bible" ?

Just a few things to ponder on.

 

[Everybodyknows]

Our gametes are regularly discarded in normal bodily processes, so they appear to be disposable in the absence of fertilization.

So are zygotes then following that logic. They are regularly disposed of by the body (in 50% of pregnancies, and sometimes the fertilised egg fails to attach to the uterine wall resulting in a normal period where no one is even aware that fertilisation took place).

Human life begins at conception. Before that it is not a 'human life' as that is only possible when the 2 meet, when God deigns it happen.

How do we know it begins at conception and not before (or after)?

You've lost no one. The life of a human being begins at conception. That is a point you're missing. A sperm isn't a human being.

Ovum and sperm are both human cells and are no less human than an embryo at conception.

Respecting the otherwise abuse of natural processes is a different but related topic to the OP wanting opinions on abortions. The RCC has position on such unnatural things as well.

Natural or unnatural, doesn't matter. Only a few out of billions ever make it.

I agree with "Everybodyknows", not only on a scientific basis, but I believe the Bible makes that point also.

In the Book of Jeremiah God tells the prophet "I knew you before you were ever in your mother's womb" (Jeremiah 1:14).

Before John the Baptist was even conceived, an angel appeared to his father Zechariah and told him John was going to be born (Luke 1:13). Apparently, and according to this story, God already had plans for John before he was even conceived.

So if his mother Elizabeth had used contraceptives to prevent John's birth (If that were possible back then), she would have been interferring with the Will of God, wouldn't she ? So much for the idea using contraceptives isn't a sin, am I right ?

The Bible also says "It's better for a man to plant his seed in the belly of a harlot, than to spill it on the ground".. Doesn't it (Genesis 38:9) ? If the sperm isn't of any consequence until after it has fertilized an egg, "Why does this prohibition exist in the Bible" ?

Just a few things to ponder on.

Thanks, good points there. I'd also add this verse:
Hebrews 7:10 For when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the loin of his ancestor.
So Levi existed in the loin of Abraham long before he was conceived. We in some sense pre-exist in the loin of our ancestors going all the way back to Adam and Eve. This is why we are born into sin because we all existed in Adam when he sinned defiling the whole of mankind.

Another interesting fact: All the ova that a woman will produce in her whole life are formed with the ovaries in utero. Think about it. The cell that ultimately became you began to exist when your mother was in the womb!

 

[stephen583]

Another interesting fact: All the ova that a woman will produce in here whole life are formed with the ovaries in utero. Think about it. The cell that would ultimately become you began to exist when your mother was in the womb!

"Everybodyknows" That's some pretty deep stuff. And yet there it is staring everyone if the face in the Scripture.

Wrap your head around this. God says he is Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. He was there before the universe came into existance, and he is there when the last star in the universe dies.

God transcends TIME. He is Omni Present. Before the universe was created, he saw every single human being that would ever be born !.. EVER !

"The past, present and future are all just illusions" (Albert Einstein).

Science knows this as well.

 

[Everybodyknows]

"Everybodyknows" That's some pretty deep stuff. And yet there it is staring everyone if the face in the Scripture.

Wrap your head around this. God says he is Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. He was there before the universe came into being, and he is there when the last star in the universe dies.

God transcends TIME. He is Omni Present. Before the universe was created, he saw every single human being that would ever be born !..

"The past, present and future are all just illusions" (Albert Einstein).

Science knows this as well.

Fantastic point. I guess we are just extending the principle a little further. Adam was in the 'loin' of God before he was created. The same could be said for every being ever to exist. This is what the bible says, there is no verse that tells us that human life begins at conception.

 

[SkyWriting]

God knew that we would be born, one day. I suppose, maybe, you could say that we existed in his mind, or that he had conceived the plan that we would exist.
But our physical life, as human beings with a heart, mind, body and spirit, began at conception.

And ends the first time you sin.
Not always right away.

 

[SkyWriting]

Thank you for your opinion however such does not address the OP of scientific evidence of conception.

I don't know that you've requested any so far.
Did I miss that?
What additional info are you seeking?

 

[redleghunter]

How do we know it begins at conception and not before (or after)?

The science was in the OP.

If you would like more sources just say the word.