The science of abortion: When does life begin?

[redleghunter]

Ovum and sperm are both human cells and are no less human than an embryo at conception.

I hear this a lot but is quite incorrect given the presentation of the OP.

Sperm has the genetic make up of the father. At conception a new distinct human being begins. Distinguishable DNA their own set of 46 chromosomes.

This really is not difficult to decipher.

 

[Sabertooth]

So are zygotes then following that logic. They are regularly disposed of by the body (in 50% of pregnancies, and sometimes the fertilised egg fails to attach to the uterine wall resulting in a normal period where no one is even aware that fertilisation took place).

People can die/have died suddenly anywhere along their life cycle, but that doesn't grant us a license to terminate them on a whim.

We lost one due to a spontaneous abortion, so we had to come to terms with that. (God even told us her name.)

 

[redleghunter]

"Everybodyknows" That's some pretty deep stuff. And yet there it is staring everyone if the face in the Scripture.

Wrap your head around this. God says he is Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. He was there before the universe came into being, and he is there when the last star in the universe dies.

God transcends TIME. He is Omni Present. Before the universe was created, he saw every single human being that would ever be born !..

"The past, present and future are all just illusions" (Albert Einstein).

Science knows this as well.

Yet by observable science we all had a beginning. All created beings and things had a beginning. Let there be Light is a beginning, a genesis if you will.

In the beginning---time

God created the heavens --space

And earth ---matter.

By God's design we all had a beginning in time and space.

 

[Everybodyknows]

Yet by observable science we all had a beginning. All created beings and things had a beginning. Let there be Light is a beginning, a genesis if you will.

In the beginning---time

God created the heavens --space

And earth ---matter.

By God's design we all had a beginning in time and space.

How was Levi in the loin of Abraham if he only began at conception?

 

[Everybodyknows]

People can die/have died suddenly anywhere along their life cycle, but that doesn't grant us a license to terminate them on a whim.

We lost one due to a spontaneous abortion, so we had to come to terms with that. (God even told us her name.)

I'm not even talking about termination. You said gametes were disposable just because not every one of them becomes a human being. Why are embryos less disposable by that logic?

 

[redleghunter]

Fantastic point. I guess we are just extending the principle a little further. Adam was in the 'loin' of God before he was created. The same could be said for every being ever to exist. This is what the bible says, there is no verse that tells us that human life begins at conception.

Really not the OP.

However, on a thread discussing the philosophical and theological aspects they would be most interesting.

However what we have in our observable world is human beings, procreation begins at conception.

 

[Sabertooth]

I, too, believe that we all pre-exist conception* (a Theological point, not a scientific one), but, at that point, all are beyond the reach of any criminal abortion.

*In the form of a deliberate plan, not as functioning beings.

(I will reserve any further comment to the appropriate thread.)

 

[redleghunter]

So are zygotes then following that logic. They are regularly disposed of by the body (in 50% of pregnancies, and sometimes the fertilised egg fails to attach to the uterine wall resulting in a normal period where no one is even aware that fertilisation took place).

What exactly is your point?

 

[redleghunter]

And ends the first time you sin.
Not always right away.

What exactly is your point?

 

[PapaZoom]

Ovum and sperm are both human cells and are no less human than an embryo at conception.

and?

 

[redleghunter]

I don't know that you've requested any so far.
Did I miss that?
What additional info are you seeking?

Some outright deny we have a beginning; some will refuse the scientific evidence to hold a social or political view.

I created this OP for Christians to try to refute the observable science of conception. I was not asking for philosophical, theological or ontological arguments for or against abortion.

If we cannot accept things we know, the science, I think delving into the other areas will be unfruitful.

People normally create abortion threads with presuppositions. This one is based on the settled science. Simple as that.

 

[redleghunter]

How was Levi in the loin of Abraham if he only began at conception?

The genetic make up of you and me was in our parents and grandparents going on back. That's observable by modern science as well.

 

[Everybodyknows]

The genetic make up of you and me was in our parents and grandparents going on back. That's observable by modern science as well.

Sure. But the bible is taking it a step further here. It's saying that there is a (human) person, uniquely identifiable as Levi, three generations before his physical conception.

 

[redleghunter]

I'm not even talking about termination. You said gametes were disposable just because not every one of them becomes a human being. Why are embryos less disposable by that logic?

Disposable in what manner? A conscious decision to terminate as in abortifacients?

 

[redleghunter]

I, too, believe that we all pre-exist conception (a Theological point, not a scientific one), but, at that point, all are beyond the reach of any criminal abortion.

(I will reserve any further comment to the appropriate thread.)

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Everybodyknows]

Really not the OP.

However, on a thread discussing the philosophical and theological aspects they would be most interesting.

However what we have in our observable world is human beings, procreation begins at conception.

The genetic make up of you and me was in our parents and grandparents going on back. That's observable by modern science as well.

You answer yourself here as to why what I am saying is scientifically relevant to OP. There is a good case to say that human beginnings are more of a continuum rather than a single instance of conception. I could technically say that you began as an ovum in your mother while she was still forming in her mother's womb.

 

[Hank77]

This thread is dedicated to the science of conception as the beginning of a district human being.

I created this OP for Christians to try to refute the observable science of conception. I was not asking for philosophical, theological or ontological arguments for or against abortion.

There is no doubt that a fertilized egg is the beginning of growing a living human body. Just as a fertilized seed is the beginning of growing a living tree.
But that is as far as science alone can take us.

 

[redleghunter]

Sure. But the bible is taking it a step further here. It's saying that there is a (human) person, uniquely identifiable as Levi, three generations before his physical conception.

Not really what the author of Hebrews was trying to get across. Perhaps applying the eisegesis of your particular beliefs is saying that, but applying exegesis the author of Hebrews was making a point about Christ being the High Priest in the manner of Melchizedek as opposed to the line of Levi.

Again if you would like to discuss this theological point when we move from the science of life, it will be most welcome.

 

[Sabertooth]

withdrawn

 

[redleghunter]

You answer yourself here as to why what I am saying is scientifically relevant to OP. There is a good case to say that human beginnings are more of a continuum rather than a single instance of conception. I could technically say that you began as an ovum in your mother while she was still forming in her mother's womb.

Not really because at conception I became more than parts of the whole.

As Christians we know all of us genetically come from Adam and Eve.

This continuum you speak of can apply to genealogies in the Bible but until someone begat someone, they were not who they were. Of course begat applies to the father mostly.

I applaud your Biblical theological approach. In many ways I agree with it. However, we are addressing the observable science.