The science of abortion: When does life begin?

[FireDragon76]

We really aren't debating when human life begins so much as human personhood.

 

[Sabertooth]

withdrawn

 

[redleghunter]

We really aren't debating when human life begins so much as human personhood.

Human personhood is a term too wrapped up in moral relativism and post modern opinion.

This thread is dedicated to the science of conception as the beginning of a district human being.

As I mentioned earlier I will create an OP in the theology forum on the theological aspects of the abortion debate. I do realize some Christians follow various philosophical beliefs in coming to their theological conclusions. We can entertain such when I post that OP.

 

[FireDragon76]

Well, like our Canadian friend said, a chimera casts into doubt the idea of a distinct human being in terms of genetics and chromosomes.

 

[Strong in Him]

I try not to involve philosophical scientists in the groin area.
Spiritually, life begins before conception.
This information is a couple thousand years old.

God knew that we would be born, one day. I suppose, maybe, you could say that we existed in his mind, or that he had conceived the plan that we would exist.
But our physical life, as human beings with a heart, mind, body and spirit, began at conception.

 

[redleghunter]

Well, like our Canadian friend said, a chimera casts into doubt the idea of a distinct human being in terms of genetics and chromosomes.

The chromosomes are in most cases (outside of a major deformity) 46 at conception. The DNA is human.

In the rare cases of a chimera, it does not refute the clear science that such a life or lives are clearly distinct from the host mother and father. What we have is a distinct life or lives from the parents which is still human.

Unless you have evidence it is something other than human? And if so what non homo sapien being can humans conceive?

 

[Strong in Him]

I'm still trying to absorb a 5 yr old and pregnancy.....

it doesn't compute

I wasn't aware of it until about 5 minutes ago.
However, the article did say that extremely early pregnancy was possible if the girl experienced precocious puberty - which could occur due to a brain injury or tumour.

There's 9 1/2 years between me an my youngest brother; the thought that some girls could be mothers at that age, is scary.

 

[FireDragon76]

I see your point, that opposition to abortion is about reverence for human life. But isn't reverence a religious notion? I don't see how you can toss out the concern over personhood. Personhood was essential to ending slavery, after all. Nobody denied that slaves were human lives.

 

[FireDragon76]

I decided to break off what I was going to say, to a separate topic. The mods can feel free to move it if they want:

Lets try this thought experiment, if abortion were legal murder, why don't we charge people who are chimeras with manslaughter? They literally absorbed another human being. I have images of certain sci-fi movies in my head just thinking about it.

FWIW, I consider abortion a sin, just based on the precedent of Christian tradition and the clear reverence for human life found in the Bible. But I'm not aligned politically with the conventional pro-life movement. I believe the ethics are more complicated than that.

 

[JackRT]

I see your point, that opposition to abortion is about reverence for human life. But isn't reverence a religious notion? I don't see how you can toss out the concern over personhood. Personhood was essential to ending slavery, after all. Nobody denied that slaves were human lives.

Bolding above is mine.

In a great many cases slaves were regarded as "subhuman". This is a typical tribal point of view regarding other tribes.

 

[cre8id]

It is obvious that both the female egg and the male sperm have a form of life but no one would call either a person. When they unite to form a zygote it certainly is alive.

'Person' is a legal definition, not a biological one.

However, from conception, the 'zygote' is, per the DNA, a unique biological human being... unique from the mother and father, there are even some slight differences with 'identical twins'.

 

[brinny]

I wasn't aware of it until about 5 minutes ago.
However, the article did say that extremely early pregnancy was possible if the girl experienced precocious puberty - which could occur due to a brain injury or tumour.

There's 9 1/2 years between me an my youngest brother; the thought that some girls could be mothers at that age, is scary.

I agree. A female child that young can, i'm assuming, experience all kinds of trauma, both physically and psychologically from the experience of pregnancy and giving birth, and being a mother.

 

[redleghunter]

I see your point, that opposition to abortion is about reverence for human life. But isn't reverence a religious notion? I don't see how you can toss out the concern over personhood. Personhood was essential to ending slavery, after all. Nobody denied that slaves were human lives.

Good point. However as you can see from a few posts here some have reservations something unique happens at conception. Scientifically speaking.

Which was my intent to convince those who adhere to the notion "it's just a pile of cells" and ignore the science of at conception we do have the beginning of a new human life. Which the facts should inform our held beliefs.

 

[redleghunter]

Lets try this thought experiment, if abortion were legal murder, why don't we charge people who are chimeras with manslaughter?

Definitely in the realm of science fiction IMO.

 

[FireDragon76]

Which was my intent to convince those who adhere to the notion "it's just a pile of cells" and ignore the science of at conception we do have the beginning of a new human life. Which the facts should inform our held beliefs.

I see your point, and I agree with the sentiments. But civil law has to be more than just sentiments, I think, especially in a pluralistic society such as the US, most of whom no longer have a strongly Christian ethos towards life (if they ever did?). Otherwise, as a Lutheran I potentially see a confusion here of the Law vs. Gospel distinction (through the somewhat difficult doctrine to explain of the Two Kingdoms doctrine). I would hate for people to think the Gospel is merely about being anti-abortion. Then that would be very cheap grace indeed (honestly, that's sort of what happened with alot of American evangelicalism).

 

[FireDragon76]

Definitely in the realm of science fiction IMO.

There's no statute of limitations on murder. I'm not sure of manslaughter, though.

I can imagine the headtrip somebody who discovers they are a chimera must deal with. It happens more now days, due to decreased costs of genetic tests on tissue, and more awareness of medical complications that chimerism can cause. Definitely a unique situation.

I know in Buddhism, they deny that there is a substantial existence of an individual person (sort of like what JackRT said), but they have a pragmatic definition of personhood beginning at conception ( the point at which the past karmic energy causes a human life to arise, the "spirit"). Abortion is considered bad karma in almost all Buddhist countries, though the ethical response varies.

 

[redleghunter]

I see your point, and I agree with the sentiments. But civil law has to be more than just sentiments, I think, especially in a pluralistic society such as the US, most of whom no longer have a strongly Christian ethos towards life (if they ever did?). Otherwise, as a Lutheran I potentially see a confusion here of the Law vs. Gospel distinction (through the somewhat difficult doctrine to explain of the Two Kingdoms doctrine). I would hate for people to think the Gospel is merely about being anti-abortion. Then that would be very cheap grace indeed (honestly, that's sort of what happened with alot of American evangelicalism).

Taking a Kingdom of God stance with in a human civil society is not a conflict of interest IMO. Abortion used to be illegal in most cases based on Christian morals of a society which saw such as good for all. I'm sure most Christians would not consider on demand elective abortion as a societal "progress" for the greater good. Not your argument of course but leaves open that door for justifying anything a pluralistic society comes up with in law. Which we've seen some societies become destructive to other societies and their own implementing.

I do reject the notion human life begins at conception is a sentiment. It could be such for those convinced of the science, but sentiments aside a doctor and embryologist looking at a diagnostic report tell us the facts. What is formed at conception is the beginning of a new distinct human being.

That is why we call it procreation.

I think we can all have a nice discussion on what some consider "personhood" when I create the new OP which I should get to early this week time permitting at work and home. I just don't want to throw out another abortion thread without setting up some parameters for discussion. I think as fellow Christians we can have such a discussion without the usual diversions to personal opinion and closely guarded bias.

 

[redleghunter]

There's no statute of limitations on murder. I'm not sure of manslaughter, though.

I can imagine the headtrip somebody who discovers they are a chimera must deal with. It happens more now days, due to decreased costs of genetic tests on tissue, and more awareness of medical complications that chimerism can cause. Definitely a unique situation.

I know in Buddhism, they deny that there is a substantial existence of an individual person (sort of like what JackRT said), but they have a pragmatic definition of personhood beginning at conception ( the point at which the past karmic energy causes a human life to arise, the "spirit"). Abortion is considered bad karma in almost all Buddhist countries, though the ethical response varies.

The chimeric manslaughter notion is mildly amusing to consider. Frankly not a consideration here.

I think such notions are easily in the realm of bad laws being based on extreme cases; and bad theology is based on one verse.

 

[AlexDTX]

The science of abortion: When does life begin?

According to a story I heard there was a Catholic priest, a Protestant pastor and a Jewish Rabbi discussing this very thing.

The priest said, Life begins when the baby is born.
The pastor countered him and said, Life begins at the moment of conception.
The rabbi lifted his hands in the air and said, Life begins when the kids go to college and the dog dies.

 

[FireDragon76]

Modern Two Kingdoms doctrinal discourse is certainly more complicated than merely capitulating to the culture. That ended horribly with Nazism combined with liberalism. So we became more nuanced. The Church does have a role critiquing society's assumptions about morality, but I think we should still be careful we do not confuse our political stances with our righteousness before God.

In the left hand kingdom, the realm of the civil sphere, we must not rely upon revelation per se, we have to rely upon natural law, in the medieval sense. That means persuasion and rational discourse. That is the best way to protect the integrity of the Gospel message. Even irreligious people and non-Christians understand the natural law to some extent, though they may not obey it.