The scarlet beast is....

[anetazo]

Its false religion. Near future, the devil in his role as antichrist, will lead a one world religious system. Revelation chapter 13, the political system receives deadly wound. Antichrist heals deadly wound by establishing world peace. Its 5 month period. The pulpit is devil most effective tool to deceive people. Mystery Babylon is confusion and false religion. When the one world political system receives deadly wound. It turns to a one world religious system. Antichrist takes over the one world religious system. The whole world will go bananas over antichrist. Because they're illiterate of God's word. Most people are lazy or playing church. The devil wants company in hell. Don't worship antichrist.

 

[Timtofly]

That is incorrect.

In fact, Scripture plainly says, "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of man" (Revelation 13:18). Please note though the transliteration in most Bibles might say "number of a man," that is not what the Scripture actually says. The original reads the number of man, and no legitimate Bible scholar will deny that since there is no article "a" in the original manuscripts. It actually reads, "Let him that has understanding count the number of the beast, for it is the number of man."

It is the number of Adam. Adam is mankind, but more to the point the man who brought sin into the world. The number is associated with the punishment of sin and death. When God places it as a mark on those during Satan's 42 months, it is literally an expiration time stamp. They are past the point of redemption. They have been removed from the Lamb's book of life, while still alive on the earth. They are stamped for death, just waiting to physically die, and be placed in Death, until Death is emptied and placed in the LOF.

Satan only lets those with the mark join in that beast's economic system.

The reason that the beast has 7 heads and 8 kings are mentioned, is the point the 7th king is the Prince to come. That Prince is Jesus Christ. Jesus is not part of this beast. Satan is the 7th head, but never was a kingdom, just was. Satan was/is, but is not a kingdom, until the 8th kingdom happens, the last 42 months leading up to Armageddon.

The 7 kingdoms were Babylon, Medes/Persia, Greece, Rome, and the ten toes. Revelation occurs after the first 5 are fallen. The 6th kingdom has not been one single kingdom. We are in the 6th kingdom stage.

The 6th Kingdom is in contrast to the stone that toppled the original statue. The stone is Christ and his followers toppled the statue at the point of the ten toes. Around the time of Reformation was the second wave of the gospel filling the whole earth. But the 6th kingdom is not the church, like the 7th Kingdom is not part of the beast.

Satan is the 7th head, but not the 7th kingdom. He will be the 8th, after Jesus as King sets up His throne in Jerusalem. Or there will not be an 8th kingdom at all. The future is not set in "prophetic stone".

The time of the 7th Trumpet will determine the future. Both Daniel and John described the worst case scenario. That there is no 8th kingdom is the best case scenario. In the days of the 7th Trumpet, Jesus will confirm the Atonement Covenant with the many, those left on the earth. God will let us know if time will be extended then. If time is extended, Satan will be the 8th kingdom. If time is not extended, there will be no 8th kingdom. The millennium will start when the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.

Jesus will continue to reign as the 7th Kingdom for a thousand years. Satan will still be bound for a thousand years. The sheep and wheat will still reign with Jesus as the first generation of the Millennium Kingdom. What people are wrong about, is that both Daniel and Revelation states Jesus as King comes (at the 6th Seal) to set up His Kingdom on earth. Jesus is the Prince to come. Jesus is the 7th kingdom; for a short while. The 7th Trumpet is the declaration that now all kingdoms on earth are under His control. All of Adam's dead corruptible flesh left on earth will be killed, at that point, in the winepress of God's wrath, because time is up.

Of course the 7th kingdom will be shorter than Satan's 42 months. Unless Satan never gets those 42 months. The 7th Kingdom is still the Millennium Kingdom. The 7th Kingdom is not one of the 7 heads, Satan is one of the 7 heads (of the 7). Satan is the 8th, because Jesus is the 7th Kingdom. Some people accept Jesus is the Prince in Daniel 9:27, yet they still seem to miss the point Jesus has that short 7th Kingdom as that Prince. No one wants to allow Jesus on earth at the 6th Seal, for some reason. Probably part of Satan's end time deception. Satan is still capable of that little nudge or twist in eschatology that ends up making a small or large part of one's eschatology contradict one or more Scripture(s).

Jesus spent time on earth at the first coming. But no one thinks Jesus has to spend time on earth at the Second Coming. Yet in Matthew 13, Jesus tells us He and His angels are on earth when Satan is openly at work. In Matthew 25:31, Jesus says He and His angels are on the earth, and He is sitting on that throne as the 7th Kingdom. Yet many just explain it all away with human reasoning thinking they have Scripture to back up their human understanding. Obviously those set in their mind are going to claim the same about my post. Except, I am not "explaining it away". I am pointing out the facts presented in Scripture. Some people just cannot see those facts.

Are the 2 beast related? Does one of the heads in Revelation 13 receive a death blow sentence (judgment)? Yes, if Satan is not allowed those last 42 months, that would be the end of that beast. All the other heads were already dead, the 6th kingdom literally destroyed at the Second Coming in the 6th Seal. All the works of earth burned up at the Second Coming. The scarlet colored beast is just a view of what is left of the 6,000 years of Adam's punishment, in the symbolic mirror. Yet Jerusalem is still the center of political and religious authority at the time of this 8th kingdom. The ten horns still just the remainder of those on earth who show up at the battle of Armageddon. Satan is certainly not going to reign with those 10 horns for a thousand years, even if Satan wanted to. That was never prophecied.

Since the beast is just symbolic imagery it is not to be taken literally, but as a guideline to the events of the time. Yes five are fallen. They have been since the Reformation ended the 10 toe kingdom. The ten horns on Satan's head is the 8th kingdom with 10 nations left in the crippling aftermath of the 6th Seal. Those nations Satan is helping prepare for the event, no doubt. But the 8th kingdom is not guaranteed, and much less so than the prayers of current believers who should be praying that there is revival on earth, not sin and death. Who prays that sin and death will get the victory?

 

[Timtofly]

KJV is a good translation but it is not infallible.

And true to God's word, we have trustworthy, reliable, copies of the original manuscripts from which the KJV of the Bible is translated. And we can reference them when we have questions about a translated KJB word, a theologian's interpretation, or an introduction of a word that doesn't belong. For example:

Revelation 13:18

• "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

By this examination of the original copy, we know that this verse actually says, the number 666 is the number of man, and not the number of "A" man as it has been translated. There is no article 'a' there, just as there is none in any other verse with the exact same construction. i.e.,

Romans 2:9

• "Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of Man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;"

Or again, as we see demonstrated in Corinthians:

1st Corinthians 2:9

• "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart Of Man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

See? There is NO ARTICLE "a" there, just as there is none in Revelation chapter 13. Or again, as seen in such contexts as Revelation chapter one:

Revelation 1:13

• "And in the midst of the seven candlesticks, one like unto the Son Of Man..."

Not the Son of "a" man, but the Son of Man. But I digress. I simply want to demonstrate that we know this "because" we have the actual original "copies" of the originals. Without them, one might surmise that God was talking about the number of a "particular" Man, rather than the number of man (Mankind). We know this because not one jot or title of God's word has been lost. Selah

Now...based on your insistence of "A" man in order to protect your flawed doctrine, let's test your wisdom on this to see if this comes from God. Tell us how do you count the number of "a" man since God said it is also the number of the beast and his number is Six Hundred Three score and six. So... how do you count that single number of "a" man then? Let's hear this from you!

Interestingly enough that no one went back in their translation to a Hebrew word, and inserted Adam into the verse. Of all the OT points John referenced, Adam was left out.

The beast in that verse is the image brought to life. It is not the head that was brought to life, because Satan is the head with the mortal wound. The image set up and brought to life is Satan's Adam. God created man/Adam in God's image. Satan created the image in man's fallen image. Not very original. Except perhaps, Satan was going for a creation that could not rebel, and was perfect, and had no free will, but looked like God's "failure", ie mankind. What the image looked like was out of spite. This is the new and improved AC. Not human at all. John calls it a beast, never legitimizing Satan's intent.

The only human was the FP. The spokesman of the beast from the sea. Introduced as the mouth given to this symbolic governmental entity. Many just tend to emphasize a human AC. The whole symbolic form of Revelation 13 is describing Satan. From the dragon to the government to even the beast out of the earth who is Satan. Yet we have the mouth as the FP mentioned slightly, and the image which is the literal beast working with the FP and Satan. But the subtle whole emphasis of the chapter is about Satan. John gives us more detail in chapters 17 and 18.

And chapters 12 and 13 deal specifically in the time frame of the 7th Trumpet. Not necessarily how Israel and Satan are introduced. Of course both existed prior to the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 12:6-17 deal specifically with the timing of the 7th Trumpet. And this beast from the sea does take into consideration human government of the past. There is no time within context of the Trumpets and Satan's empire to establish 7 new governments. Nor are these 7 heads current governments at all. No single government has had total control, so the 6th head or kingdom is not one particular nation, unless you are trying to reconcile the body with Daniel's 4 diverse beast, which some claim have been the last 500+ years since the Reformation. Past history is not really the issue, nor should be. One cannot change the past.

 

[Timtofly]

I have never denied that.

Nope, it is only the horns and heads on the beast out of the sea that are men.

Ten horns - kings
Seven heads - kings, of which only one head is mortally wounded, but healed.

The beast king is the one mortally wounded, but healed head.

If you think both beast are the same from out of human kind, in the description of the scarlet beast, we are told that 5 heads are already defunct kingdoms. They would be the main image in Daniel 2. Obviously the image is no longer around, not even the ten toes, which would have been defunct at the Reformation. The 6th head/kingdom is current government with no particular one in power. The heads are not humans on the scarlet beast, and they should not be on the beast from the sea/humanity. 5 heads are literally all already dead.

Only the 6th one is current, and Satan is the one mortally wounded, because he was aborted before even being a kingdom, ie the 8th kingdom. Unless like some they claim Satan usurped human authority, and humans were not even in control of their governments. I beg to differ on that. When Satan offered the kingdoms to Christ, he had no authority to do that. He would have had to kill all of humanity or convince them all to give up their authority for that to happen.

The 7th Trumpet is the declaration of Jesus receiving all the kingdoms. It was not time at the first coming for all humanity to submit to Jesus' authority. Nor did Satan have such authority as long as humans were not fully submitted to Satan. They were not.

What many keep overlooking especially calling the heads individuals instead of kingdoms is that no man has been the king of those kingdoms since Alexander the Great. Rome was not a kingdom. It was a republic with a Ceasar, but the introduction of more than one human having authority started to break down the, individual, one man Babylonian type empire. Eventually Rome could not even keep a decent Ceasar, as they kept being changed like clothing. And the human torso failed as symbolism after Alexander, and the Greek kingdom was split into 4 sections. Besides Greece is still a nation today, an individual nation, among many nations, and even Persia is still around in some fashion as Iran. The heads are still there, just not kingdoms ruling the entire earth.

So the point is that 5 heads have fallen, but not entirely dead, as humans are still alive in those defunct kingdoms. The 6th Kingdom is the current world status, until the 6th Seal is opened. The 6th Seal is the Second Coming of Jesus to establish the 7th kingdom. Daniel wrote that Gabriel told us the Prince to come was both Messiah and Prince.

In the symbolism of these beast, five kingdoms were fallen not dead, but Satan was a dead kingdom, unless allowed to have 42 months. But only after Jesus already set up the 7th kingdom, if even for a short period between the 6th Seal and the 7th Trumpet. The ten horns come after the geographical shake up of the 6th Seal. Even if mountains moving around at the 6th Seal is symbolic of human government, every thing is going to change in politics after the 6th Seal. That is an indisputable fact. That the Islands move can only be symbolism for the continents moving. No man is an island, no pun intended. God will bring all land back into one continent and rather instantly. And yes, most of humanity will survive the biggest roller coaster ride of a lifetime.

We know that those nations around Israel will remain, like Egypt. But how it will look after the 6th Seal is only guess work. The Mediterranean will still be there though smaller and the dead sea and the sea of Galilee will become one it seems.

My opinion on the current seasons and the length of the year is that the earth is not centered. By that, the land is not in perfect alignment with the course of the sun in the sky. Israel will be the center of the land mass with the sun in a perfect circuit around Israel. There will be twelve perfect seasons per year according to each month. It is interesting that sometimes Israel is referred to as the North or sides of the North. Except right now the north is somewhere above Canada and Russia, not Israel. I think after the 6th Seal, Israel will be the North Pole literally. If you are any place on the new earth, North will be towards Jerusalem.

 

[Timtofly]

3. There are people outside the Covenant who were not written in the Book of Life at all.

This is not Scripture. This is not what John wrote. John was saying that these people were removed after the 7th Seal was opened. You are contradicting the Scripture that declares God is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance.

That does not mean all will repent. This does mean that according to election, every soul ever conceived was written down upon God's will that all will come to repentance. So God, even in foreknowledge, did not just write down some names, that would physically descend from Abraham. That would be considered ridiculous.

You are inserting your human opinion, based upon some English Grammar from the last few hundred years. At the point they were given the mark is when they were not found in the Lamb's book of life. John writes Revelation in the past tense, even though the events are still future. The order given is this: all dwelling on the earth, of whom, not have been written, the names of them in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the founding of the world.

This can be interpreted they are not named when John wrote this down in the future. Revelation was not written as if in the first century. It was written as John had just witnessed each event in the future.

Moses understood that no names could be blotted out prior to the opening of the 6th Seal. Paul knew that as well. He mentioned the same about his first century Jews. We know that the Lamb was slain from God's perspective prior to creation. We know there was also a book with every one's name also since before Creation. What we cannot say is that God only chose to redeem a certain percentage of humanity. That would contradict all those verses that declare God chose to save the whole world. Yes, at the same time even at certain points, God reserved the right to destroy them all, who would not repent. God is willing to both redeem and destroy any human. God would prefer to redeem all over destroying all flesh. And, yes even at times God repented that He had even made mankind. It is way better that humans repent, than we make God repent.

Moses was referring to the Lamb's book of life. The one sealed that only the Lamb could unseal.

After the events of Revelation 13, John could write they were never in the Lamb's book of life. It is the same thought as this: Matthew 7:22-23

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

How can an all knowing God never know all those placed in the LOF? God did know them, and they were all in the Lamb's book of life until they were removed and that is when God declared they had never even existed.

So John is writing about those with the mark. There will be humans walking on earth who can never be redeemed, not even at the GWT. But this is not referring to all those who died in the past and are in sheol. That is what the GWT judgment is for. They will either be resurrected into eternal life or removed from the Lamb's book of life at that point.

Your error is claiming there were some people named in the Lamb's book of life in the past and some who were not. This is directly related to Reformation Theology that declares only a limited Atonement that only covered an elect few. No, God elected every soul for redemption, that is why God in foreknowledge wrote down every name and then sealed the book even before creation and before Adam chose to disobey God. God only chooses not to know those after they have been removed from the Lamb's book of life. Limited Atonement means the majority of humanity snuck past God and were born without His knowledge.

Now you can say that God chooses to have mercy on some and not others. Romans 9:13-18. Does that pertain to Salvation or how God works on humans to carry out His Sovereign Will? I think they are separate issues.


"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

It was not that God hated Esau from the foundation of the earth. God did not harden Pharaoh from the foundation of the earth. These verses show God stepping in at times during creation to bring about certain events God deemed necessary for His ultimate plan of salvation. He hardened Pharaoh's heart in opposition to God's plan. This was to show the strength of Pharaoh's defeat. God hated Esau because he was a failure, not because God was unrighteous. God does show mercy on whom He chooses. That is different from saying Jesus only died on the Cross to save an elect few.

Did God have mercy and compassion on Jesus who bore the cup of a brutal trial and crucifixion? Did God harden His own people's hearts to kill their own Messiah? Yes, all part of the plan to have an Atonement for every soul ever conceived. Jesus even prayed, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do". So the Atonement was even for all those responsible for the cup Jesus had to drink from. It was still their individual choices to ask God for forgiveness, no matter what the sin.

 

[TribulationSigns]

This is not Scripture. This is not what John wrote. John was saying that these people were removed after the 7th Seal was opened.

False. THose who have not yet sealed of God will be removed because they were never part of the covenant in the first place or before the foundation of the World.

You are contradicting the Scripture that declares God is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance.

Incorrect. It would help if you actually read the Scripture which obviously show why you omit part of whole verse:

2Pe 3:9
(9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

He is talking about HIS people with names already in the Book of life before the foundation of the Earth. He is long suffering until ALL of HIS PEOPLE on Earth have repented and sealed over time. Not everyone in the world.

The rest of your post is nonsense.

That does not mean all will repent. This does mean that according to election, every soul ever conceived was written down upon God's will that all will come to repentance. So God, even in foreknowledge, did not just write down some names, that would physically descend from Abraham. That would be considered ridiculous.

You are inserting your human opinion, based upon some English Grammar from the last few hundred years. At the point they were given the mark is when they were not found in the Lamb's book of life. John writes Revelation in the past tense, even though the events are still future. The order given is this: all dwelling on the earth, of whom, not have been written, the names of them in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the founding of the world.

This can be interpreted they are not named when John wrote this down in the future. Revelation was not written as if in the first century. It was written as John had just witnessed each event in the future.

Moses understood that no names could be blotted out prior to the opening of the 6th Seal. Paul knew that as well. He mentioned the same about his first century Jews. We know that the Lamb was slain from God's perspective prior to creation. We know there was also a book with every one's name also since before Creation. What we cannot say is that God only chose to redeem a certain percentage of humanity. That would contradict all those verses that declare God chose to save the whole world. Yes, at the same time even at certain points, God reserved the right to destroy them all, who would not repent. God is willing to both redeem and destroy any human. God would prefer to redeem all over destroying all flesh. And, yes even at times God repented that He had even made mankind. It is way better that humans repent, than we make God repent.

Moses was referring to the Lamb's book of life. The one sealed that only the Lamb could unseal.

After the events of Revelation 13, John could write they were never in the Lamb's book of life. It is the same thought as this: Matthew 7:22-23

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

How can an all knowing God never know all those placed in the LOF? God did know them, and they were all in the Lamb's book of life until they were removed and that is when God declared they had never even existed.

So John is writing about those with the mark. There will be humans walking on earth who can never be redeemed, not even at the GWT. But this is not referring to all those who died in the past and are in sheol. That is what the GWT judgment is for. They will either be resurrected into eternal life or removed from the Lamb's book of life at that point.

Your error is claiming there were some people named in the Lamb's book of life in the past and some who were not. This is directly related to Reformation Theology that declares only a limited Atonement that only covered an elect few. No, God elected every soul for redemption, that is why God in foreknowledge wrote down every name and then sealed the book even before creation and before Adam chose to disobey God. God only chooses not to know those after they have been removed from the Lamb's book of life. Limited Atonement means the majority of humanity snuck past God and were born without His knowledge.

Now you can say that God chooses to have mercy on some and not others. Romans 9:13-18. Does that pertain to Salvation or how God works on humans to carry out His Sovereign Will? I think they are separate issues.


"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

It was not that God hated Esau from the foundation of the earth. God did not harden Pharaoh from the foundation of the earth. These verses show God stepping in at times during creation to bring about certain events God deemed necessary for His ultimate plan of salvation. He hardened Pharaoh's heart in opposition to God's plan. This was to show the strength of Pharaoh's defeat. God hated Esau because he was a failure, not because God was unrighteous. God does show mercy on whom He chooses. That is different from saying Jesus only died on the Cross to save an elect few.

Did God have mercy and compassion on Jesus who bore the cup of a brutal trial and crucifixion? Did God harden His own people's hearts to kill their own Messiah? Yes, all part of the plan to have an Atonement for every soul ever conceived. Jesus even prayed, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do". So the Atonement was even for all those responsible for the cup Jesus had to drink from. It was still their individual choices to ask God for forgiveness, no matter what the sin.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes, in their relationship to Satan. And yes, as to their present status. The beast in Revelation 17:8a in the bottomless pit died long ago.

The beast in Revelation 17:8b is the forthcoming near future beast king, king 7 who becomes king 8.

Nope. They are the same beast and there is no basis whatsoever for thinking otherwise.

Revelation 17:8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

How can this be referring to two different beasts when in each case it's talking about the beast that "once was, not is not, and yet will come"? There is only one beast that "once was, now is not, and yet will come". Has that one beast taken on different forms over the years? Sure. But, the beast is still the beast and it "once was, now is not, and yet will come". Notice in Revelation 17:8b that John refers to "the beast" as if he had already previously referenced it. That is because he did in Revelation 17:8a.

With 42 months left in the 7 years, the beast (who was and is not) will merge with the beast (who was, is not, yet is) to be one beast.

The KJV does not have the best translation of that verse. There isn't "the beast who was, is not, yet is". That comes across as if there's a beast that both "is not" and "is". That's ludicrous and contradictory. When you read a better translation of the verse like the NIV you can see that it's talking in Rev 17:8b about the beast that "once was, now is not, and yet will come", which is the same as the beast mentioned earlier in the verse that "once was, not is not, and yet will come....up out of the Abyss".

How can you not understand that the beast currently in the bottomless pit, now a disembodied spirit, will sometime in the future ascend out of the bottomless pit to possess the end times person's soul, as the end times person comes back to life ?

LOL. How can I not understand something that is clearly not true? Very easily.

Let me ask you this.... Has the beast who was, is not , yet is made his appearance to the people of the world for them to be wondered by it ?

As you should be able to have seen from how I interpret it, I see that beast as being the same beast who was to come up out of the abyss/bottomless pit. And I see that happening at the same time that the dragon, Satan, is loosed. So, in my view, you are basically asking if I believe the beast and the dragon have yet come out of the bottomless pit which is what triggers the onset of what many call "Satan's little season". I relate this time period to what Jesus said in Matthew 24:10-13 and to what Paul wrote about in 2 Thess 2:1-12, so I see this time period as being marked by an increase in wickedness as well as a mass falling away from the faith (the love of many growing cold, as Jesus put it). And I think we may very well be in that time period now based on the kinds of things that have been happening from an immorality standpoint in recent years.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

In Revelation 13, verse 18 is within the context of the 42 months of verse 5 that the person is the beast king.

You're not addressing the point that was being made.

Revelation 13:18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man [or is humanity's number]. That number is 666.

The point that was made is that we should be able to determine the meaning of the number now rather than having to wait until some beast person arrives on the scene at some point in the future. Where does this say that the meaning of what is written here can't be understood now and can only be understood at some point in the future? It doesn't. That is what you are missing because you assume this is talking about some individual Antichrist/man of sin/beast guy in the future rather than talking about humanity or mankind's number.

The number 7 symbolically represents perfection and/or completeness (notice how many times it's used in Revelation in that sense) and is a number associated with God. You could say that 777 is God's number representing the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and mankind's number, 666, falls short of that because man falls short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23).

 

[Douggg]

Nope. They are the same beast and there is no basis whatsoever for thinking otherwise.

The beast in Revelation 17:8a cannot be said to be a king. No cross reference to being a king.

The beast in Revelation 17:8b is a king because "was, is not, yet is" can be cross referenced to king 8 in Revelation 17:11 "And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.” Since he is the 8th king - then he is the beast king.

Why will king 8 be called the beast ? Because the beast who was and is not, the garden of eden serpent beast, now a disembodied spirit, shall ascend out of the bottomless pit to possess him (king 8).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Revelation 17
the scarlet colored beast - Satan
the beast who was and is not, in the bottomless pit - the garden of eden serpent beast, now a disembodied spirit
the beast who was, and is not, and yet is - the end times king 8

Revelation 12
the great red dragon beast - Satan

Revelation 13
the composite beast out of the sea - the end times kingdom that will control the lands once held by the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek, empires.

the mortally wounded but healed head - king 8, the beast king.

the beast out of the earth - the false prophet.

the statue image of the beast king - the abomination of desolation

the statue image comes to life and speaks - incarnated by Satan.

 

[Douggg]

The point that was made is that we should be able to determine the meaning of the number now rather than having to wait until some beast person arrives on the scene at some point in the future. Where does this say that the meaning of what is written here can't be understood now and can only be understood at some point in the future? It doesn't. That is what you are missing because you assume this is talking about some individual Antichrist/man of sin/beast guy in the future rather than talking about humanity or mankind's number.

Humanity is not the beast king. It is talking about the number of beast king's name. "his" name, not "it's" name.

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Keep trying, maybe you will figure it out.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The beast in Revelation 17:8a cannot be said to be a king. No cross reference to being a king.

The beast in Revelation 17:8b is a king because "was, is not, yet is" can be cross referenced to king 8 in Revelation 17:11 "And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.” Since he is the 8th king - then he is the beast king.

I showed that each reference to the beast in Revelation 17:8 is to the same beast "that once was, now is not, and yet will come" and you're not even addressing what I showed. So, I'm not going to bother addressing what you're saying, either. I'm looking for an actual adult discussion where each person actually addresses the points that the other makes instead of ignoring what the other says and not addressing it at all.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Humanity is not the beast king. It is talking about the number of beast king's name. "his" name, not "it's" name.

You're all over the place with your beliefs. You see multiple beasts in the same verse and you apparently have decided that the Revelation 13:18 beast is the same as the Revelation 17:8b beast, but not the Revelation 17:8a beast. LOL. Your beliefs couldn't possibly be more convoluted than what they are.

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Keep trying, maybe you will figure it out.

Just keep acting as if the Bible was originally written in English and that King James Version is the original Bible manuscript then if that's what you want to insist on doing.

Revelation 13:17 (NIV): so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

Other English translations that have "of its name" there include the CEB, CJB, CEV, Darby (!), ESV, EXB, GW, ISV, JUB, NABRE, NCV, NTE, OJB, RSV and WE.

The fact of the matter is that English Bible translators, who all knew Greek better than you and me, could not all agree on how to translate the Greek word there, so some went with "his" and some went with "its". But, you keep acting as if you know Greek better than all of them did because humbling yourself and admitting otherwise would just be too much to ask of you, right?

Also, you should not act as if you have it figured out when you can't even tell us what the number of the beast's name represents.

 

[Douggg]

The KJV does not have the best translation of that verse. There isn't "the beast who was, is not, yet is". That comes across as if there's a beast that both "is not" and "is". That's ludicrous and contradictory. When you read a better translation of the verse like the NIV you can see that it's talking in Rev 17:8b about the beast that "once was, now is not, and yet will come", which is the same as the beast mentioned earlier in the verse that "once was, not is not, and yet will come....up out of the Abyss".

The NIV is inconsistent.

NIV Revelation 17:11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

See? NIV does not say "will come" like it did in Revelation 17:8b.

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What the translators, I think did, is that they applied the "the other not yet come" in verse 10 to verse 8b.

NIV Revelation 17:10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.

It appears that the translators of the NIV equate the beast "yet to come" in Revelaiton 17:8b with king 7. They actually made a mistake, because the world is not going to wonder when king 7 arrives. Instead, the world is going to wonder when they see king 7 killed, and comes back to life as king 8, the beast king.

 

[Douggg]

I showed that each reference to the beast in Revelation 17:8 is to the same beast "that once was, now is not, and yet will come"

The NIV made a mistake. They are equating the beast in Revelation 17:8b with king 7 in Revelation 17:10.

The world will not wonder when king 7 arrives. Instead, the world is going to wonder when they see king 7 killed, and comes back to life as king 8, the beast king.

 

[Douggg]

Just keep acting as if the Bible was originally written in English and that King James Version is the original Bible manuscript then if that's what you want to insist on doing.

Revelation 13:17 (NIV): so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

Well, there is part of your problem - the NIV.

The beast is not an "it" but a him. A king.

Where is king 8 in your translation of Revelation 13 ?

 

[Douggg]

@Spiritual Jew

NIV Revelation 13:18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.

"a man" not man, as in mankind.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The NIV is inconsistent.

NIV Revelation 17:11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

See? NIV does not say "will come" like it did in Revelation 17:8b.

The KJV is inconsistent at times as well. That's what we have to deal with since the Bible was not written in English. Thankfully, there are good Hebrew and Greek resources as well as the Holy Spirit to help make up for disadvantages like this that we face.

Anyway, it's silly to think that every time the beast is referenced it has to say that it's "the beast that will come" in order for us to understand which beast it's talking about. The translators understood that those who read the Bible carefully and take it seriously are not ignorant little infants who need everything to be spoon fed to them.

What the translators, I think did, is that they applied the "the other not yet come" in verse 10 to verse 8b.

NIV Revelation 17:10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.

No, they were not as dumb as you apparently think they were. That verse is just talking about the seventh head of the beast, not the beast itself. And it's true that the seventh head (seventh king/kingdom) had not yet come at that point, so why are you acting as if they didn't translate that verse properly? There is no indication whatsoever there that they were equating the seventh head with the beast coming up out of the bottomless pit, which is what the eighth head of the beast represents.

It appears that the translators of the NIV equate the beast "yet to come" in Revelaiton 17:8b with king 7.

Nope. That is a baseless assumption. That would mean they equated the seventh head of the beast with the beast itself, which is not something that is indicated in the text. It's only the eighth head that is equated with the beast itself, not the seventh head. And they indicated that in verse 11 by calling it "the beast who once was, and now is not", which is an obvious reference to the same beast referenced in Revelation 17:8.

They actually made a mistake, because the world is not going to wonder when king 7 arrives.

They didn't make a mistake. You are making a mistake by acting as if you know what they were thinking, which you don't. I guarantee that. You started out saying what you think they did and then that somehow became you coming across as if you know that they made a mistake. Humble yourself, Douggg. You don't know what they were thinking at all.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Well, there is part of your problem - the NIV.

I showed that there are many other translations that translate the word as "its" as well, so don't act as if it's just one translation that does that.

The beast is not an "it" but a him. A king.

Prophetic beasts are kingdoms, so "it" is appropriate.

Daniel 7:23 “He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it.

To be clear, I'm not starting a new argument here that the fourth beast is the same as the beast we're talking about. No, I'm just showing that a prophetic beast represents a kingdom. And, of course, kingdoms have kings. The seven heads are also said to be represent seven mountains and mountains sometimes represent kingdoms in scripture such as references to God's holy mountain. So, to make the beast as representing only a king requires you to ignore things like that as well as ignoring verses like Daniel 7:23.

Where is king 8 in your translation of Revelation 13 ?

I don't know what you're talking about here. Can you clarify? I'm the one who has to try to follow which beast you think any given verse might be talking about. You have no idea what it's like trying to follow and make sense of what you believe.

 

[Douggg]

The KJV does not have the best translation of that verse. There isn't "the beast who was, is not, yet is". That comes across as if there's a beast that both "is not" and "is". That's ludicrous and contradictory.

The wording is referring to a series of changing states of being.

was alive
is not alive
yet is alive

It simply means someone who is killed and comes back to life. King 7 will be killed and comes back to life as king 8, the beast king.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The NIV made a mistake. They are equating the beast in Revelation 17:8b with king 7 in Revelation 17:10.

No, they are not. It's funny how you went from saying in another post what you THINK the NIV translators may have done to somehow now acting as if you KNOW what they did. They equated the beast of Revelation 17:8a and 17:8b by referring to it as the beast "that once was, is not, and yet will come" and the clear implication is that it means it will yet come...up out of the Abyss/bottomless pit. That's not a description of the seventh head, but rather the eighth. So, I believe you are misinterpreting the intentions of the NIV translators just like you are misinterpreting this prophecy.

The world will not wonder when king 7 arrives.

No one has said that. Including the NIV translators. It's hilarious to me that you think you know what they were thinking when they translated Revelation 17 when the reality is that you have no idea and are just wildly speculating the same way you do with scripture.