The saved are eternally secure

[Hentenza]

You need glasses.....

Heb 6:4 It is impossible...

What's impossible?

Verse 6 "to be brought back to repentance"

What's repentance in its basic form?

Answer: I am a sinner and I need your righteousness....

That's repentance.

Now if you hardened your heart the Holy Spirit can no longer convict you of your need of repentance. Hence you don't need Christ. You become self-righteous like the Pharisees of old.

When that happens you go from under God's grace and love back under the law.

You are correct in that the verses refer to repentance not salvation since the word apostasy (apostasia) is never used in these verses. The word used is parapipto which means "to fall alongside." The verbs "crucify" and "put" in verse 6 are, in Greek, present participles: “while they are crucifying" and "while putting Him to an open shame.” The writer did not say that these people could never be brought to repentance. He said that they could not be brought to repentance while they were treating Jesus Christ in such a shameful way. Once they stop disgracing Jesus Christ in this way, they can be brought to repentance and renew their fellowship with God just as the prodigal son was brought back enthusiastically.

Furthermore, the writer of Hebrews is describing a hypothetical case here. In essence what he is saying is that let’s suppose that you do not go on to maturity (the topic of Heb. 5 which continues on chapter six, see "Therefore" in verse 1). Does this mean that you will go back to condemnation, that you will lose your salvation? Impossible! If you could lose your salvation, it would be impossible to get it back again and this would disgrace Jesus Christ. He would have to be crucified again for you, and this could never happen.

Hebrews 6:9 supports this:

9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that [h]accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.

The pronoun structure also supports this since in verse 4 the writer changed the pronouns from “we” and “us” from verses 1-3 to “those” and then returns to "we" and "us" (or you) in verse 9.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yep. The thing is that those with saving faith do persevere.

Luke 8
15 But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with [d]perseverance.

Not only that but God, by His own power through the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, keeps or preserves the believer forever.

Eph. 1
13 In [q]Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also [r]believed, you were sealed in [s]Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is [t]given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

He is perfectly capable of finishing what He started.

Phil. 1
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Yes, and this is all true.

That, however, doesn't change that if we knowingly, actively, and willing turn away from Christ that we have--in fact--turned away from Christ.

Nobody doubts (or at least I hope they don't) the power and ability of God to keep us and secure us in Himself; which is why the Apostle says there is no power in heaven or under heaven that can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

So it's not as though we can "lose" our salvation. But we can reject our salvation. Else it would be pointless for Scripture to even address such a thing.

"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: 'The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.'” - 2 Peter 2:20-22

"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons," - 1 Timothy 4:1

"And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no rot; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away." - Luke 8:13

-CryptoLutheran

 

[SavedByGraceThruFaith]

Yes, and this is all true.

That, however, doesn't change that if we knowingly, actively, and willing turn away from Christ that we have--in fact--turned away from Christ.

Nobody doubts (or at least I hope they don't) the power and ability of God to keep us and secure us in Himself; which is why the Apostle says there is no power in heaven or under heaven that can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

So it's not as though we can "lose" our salvation. But we can reject our salvation. Else it would be pointless for Scripture to even address such a thing.

"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: 'The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.'” - 2 Peter 2:20-22

"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons," - 1 Timothy 4:1

"And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no rot; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away." - Luke 8:13

-CryptoLutheran

The guarantee of salvation is absolute so none of the saved ever lose salvation. The 3 passages you quoted are not about any saved person losing salvation.

The Lord Jesus Christ promised the saved that He will never leave them.

Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

So the saved could never go to hell. If they did, Jesus Christ would still be with them and would be in hell forever. That emphatic and absolute promise, without condition, shows that once saved always saved is true.

Also if the saved could lose salvation and go to hell forever, then Jesus Christ would certainly have forsaken them. So it is impossible fro the saved to lose salvation. Never, ever could it happen.

Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved is absolutely true and guaranteed by Jesus Christ my Saviour.

 

[ViaCrucis]

How does the following describe anything other than Christians no longer being Christians--people who believed, but no longer believe; having known the truth, but turning away from it?

"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: 'The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.'” - 2 Peter 2:20-22

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hentenza]

How does the following describe anything other than Christians no longer being Christians--people who believed, but no longer believe; having known the truth, but turning away from it?

"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: 'The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.'” - 2 Peter 2:20-22

-CryptoLutheran

Hey Cripto,

Who are "they" in these passages?

 

[Florierte Gottes]

Matthew 18, unmerciful debtor.

 

[Florierte Gottes]

Hey Cripto,

Who are "they" in these passages?

These:

Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 2 Peter 2:15

... was Balaam a prophet of God?

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 2 Peter 2:20

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2 Peter 2:21

But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Peter 2:22

 

[Florierte Gottes]

Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Ezekiel 3:20

 

[Florierte Gottes]

From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. John 6:66

 

[Florierte Gottes]

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Romans 6:16

 

[SavedByGraceThruFaith]

From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. John 6:66

Where they saved? Does not say

If they were, did they lose salvation? Does not say.

I believe they were not saved.

 

[Florierte Gottes]

King Saul; 1 Samuel 10:6, 10; 19:23; 28:16. The Lord departing from Saul and becoming his adversary: 1 Samuel 28:16

 

[Florierte Gottes]

...I believe they were not saved.

Thus you define who is saved, even as you do with OSAS.

 

[Florierte Gottes]

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Romans 11:22

Can a person be cut off forever? See Leviticus 16 and 23.

Whom is this text [Romans 11:22] addressing? Romans 11:13

Were they to whom the text [Romans 11:22] is addressing previously in a salvational relationship with Jesus Christ or no? Romans 11:30

Are they now according to the text [Romans 11:22] in such a salvational relationship with Christ Jesus at that point?

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: Romans 11:20

And so thus according to Romans 11:22, etal, can such who had at one point not known GOD, but then by His grace stood by faith [in Christ Jesus], and so were at one point grafted into the true stock and thus at one point continuing in His goodness, but yet at some later point choose to cease to go/walk any farther in faith [John 6:66] and so then through continued and stubborn unbelief then onwards become "broken off" and "cut off" and finally become eternally lost?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hey Cripto,

Who are "they" in these passages?

Based upon the entirety of 2 Peter 2, these are those who have turned away from true faith and followed after false teachers, having become apostate by going after heresy.

They had received the faith, believed it, but have since turned away from it.

Is there an alternative interpretation you have in mind where those spoken who "have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" and "have known the way of righteousness" are not people who have believed in Christ and known His righteousness? Which is what the very straightforward, contextual reading of the text would seem to suggest.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Florierte Gottes]

Are the wicked already condemned?

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

Can the wicked turn from wickedness according to scripture?

"the wicked turn"; "the wicked forsake" and so on.

Ezekiel 18:21,23, 33:8,11,19; Isaiah 55:7; can the Righteous then Turn back? and be lost? Does God, in His will, remove the will He gave unto us?

We may choose to divorce ourselves from Christ.

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:2

In the marriage to Christ Jesus, it works the same...

"But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. ..." 1 Corinthians 7:15;p

...also the stipulation for 'fornication'...

 

[SwordFall]

Corinthians 6:9
Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.




Paul outright warns to not be deceived by 'once saved always saved'. I believe that he saw this coming, and yet, OSAS believers have still tried to override what he says with all sorts of reach arounds, especially predestination theology.

 

[Hentenza]

These:

Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 2 Peter 2:15

... was Balaam a prophet of God?

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 2 Peter 2:20

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2 Peter 2:21

But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Peter 2:22

No, they are false prophets.

2 Peter 2
2 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

When you get outside of the text eisegesis ensues.

 

[Florierte Gottes]

But isn't it said that,

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand." John 10:28

"My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand." John 10:29,

Yes, but notice it does not say that we cannot choose to leap out or divorce ourselves or disqualify ourselves, utilizing the will God gave unto us.

The passage is about no one being able to force [Pluck; arpasei vs 28, arpazein vs 29 and means "1) to seize, carry off by force;2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly;3) to snatch out or away" (Strong's Concordance)] you out, not that we cannot of our own free choice choose to leave, even forever if we so wanted. God will force none to love Him, and none to remain with Him, and none to have eternal life if they absolutely refuse it.

It does not mean we have to be always in a condition of "saved", "lost", "saved", "lost", for we can have assurance of salvation without needing the unbiblical notion of OSAS in the equation, which OSAS leads to dangerous paths and presumption upon the Loving Grace of God.

Talents given [Matthew 25], gifts given, can be wasted or abused or thrown aside.

Salvation is such a gift.

I am not speaking about stumbling or [momentary] lapse, I am asking about complete and total rejection of what one once fully believed in and faithed in and walked in?

Must we, as the text [etal] says, "standeth by faith" and "continue in [his] goodness" "unto the end" and so "shall be saved"?

...or do we rather 'stand by presumption' and say that we cannot be lost once 'saved' no matter what choices we make, we can never of our ownselves let go of God?

It is relationship, not the rape of 'irresistible grace'.

 

[Hentenza]

Corinthians 6:9
Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.




Paul outright warns to not be deceived by 'once saved always saved'. I believe that he saw this coming, and yet, OSAS believers have still tried to override what he says with all sorts of reach arounds, especially predestination theology.

And yet, Paul tells us in the very next verse:

1 Cor 6

11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.