The Saints of Revelation

[BABerean2]

So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place...........

Bits and pieces of the doctrine have so invaded the thinking of modern Christian churches that many have no idea that there is any other system of interpretation.

If you ask many about their understanding of the New Covenant, you will only get a blank stare as a response.

During the years that my wife and I were members of a Dispensational church body, I never heard a Sunday School lesson or a sermon on the New Covenant. I now know why.
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and its pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

Therefore, most Dispensationalists either ignore the New Covenant, or claim it is not now in effect.

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[shilohsfoal]

As I understand Dispensationalism, when you look at the Book of Revelation, the Rapture is supposed to happen in Rev. 4:1, when John is told to “Come up here!” The same people who believe this believe that Revelation is in chronological order, a dubious assumption.


Yet the saints are mentioned a number of times in the rest of Revelation. For instance:


<< This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.
Then I heard a voice from heaven say, 'Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”
“Yes, says the Spirit, they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.” >>
--Revelation 14: 12-13 NIV


From this passage it is clear that there are saints, Christians, on Earth, and so there is a Church on Earth. These saints are doing “labor,” obeying “commandments,” accumulating “deeds,” are “blessed,” and are destined for “rest.”


According to Dispensationalists, the angels pour out the seven bowls during the seven years of Tribulation. The following passage occurs during that time.


<< Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say:
“You are just in these judgments,
you who are and who were, the Holy One,
for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets,
and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve.” >>
--Revelation 16:5-6 NIV


While the previous passage mentions “saints,” here we have “saints and prophets,” and it is clear that some of these are being martyred.


Another passage on martyrdom:


<< I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. >>
--Revelation 17:6 NIV


Here, the presence of “those who bore testimony” is emphasized, along with “saints.”


Yet another passage, talking about Babylon:


<< Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
“Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.” >>
--Revelation 18:4 NIV






In this passage, a “voice from heaven” speaks to “my people.” The voice is either God or an angel speaking with Divine authority, and “my people” can only mean God's church on Earth.


There is no sign in any of these passages that the saints, prophets, martyrs, bearers of testimony, or God's people, are recent converts. There is no sign that they only converted to Christianity after a startling and cataclysmic Rapture event. On the contrary, the implication is that many of them are quite learned in what Christianity is and bear eloquent testimony to it. It doesn't look like these are people who decided that they wanted to be Christians in the midst of end-time chaos and persecution, when study would be virtually impossible.




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I believe many of these saints mentioned in revelation come to Christ during the persecution of the church in Israel .Between the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination which causes desolation is placed.


https://biblehub.com/daniel/11-35.htm

But agree there are those in Israel who were already saints before this persecution began.

https://biblehub.com/daniel/11-33.htm


As with most prophecy,the prophecies of Revelation is centerd around Israel.

 

[DavidPT]

You seem to be missing the entire point of the thread, and of my answer.

The OP claimed that the presence of "saints" on the earth during the troubles of the Revelation proves that the church will still be there.

My point was that the word "saints" does not necessarily mean "Christians," for it was repeatedly used of Israelites long before the time of Christ. So the presence of "saints" on the earth (not in heaven) in the Revelation does not disprove the concept of a pre-tribuation rapture.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Provide at least one example of a saint who would have the faith of Jesus, yet would not be a Christian, thus would not be part of the church.

Also, take note of what context Revelation 14:12 is in. It is in the context involving the beast, where some are alledging the church isn't even present during this time because the church has already been raptured prior to this time.

 

[Biblewriter]

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Provide at least one example of a saint who would have the faith of Jesus, yet would not be a Christian, thus would not be part of the church.

Also, take note of what context Revelation 14:12 is in. It is in the context involving the beast, where some are alledging the church isn't even present during this time because the church has already been raptured prior to this time.

The scriptures very clearly say that the people of God will worship God with animal sacrifices during the millennium. At least at the beginning, every one of these people will have believed in Jesus, because the rebels, and those that transgress against God, will have just been purged from their midst. (See Ezekiel 20:33-38)

This worship, based on animal sacrifice, could not be said to be Christian, yet it will be done by people that have believed in Jesus, as clearly seen in Zechariah 12:10-14 and Isaiah 4:3.

 

[BABerean2]

This worship, based on animal sacrifice, could not be said to be Christian, yet it will be done by people that have believed in Jesus, as clearly seen in Zechariah 12:10-14 and Isaiah 4:3.

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."


Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.
Act 2:15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
Act 2:17 'AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE LAST DAYS, SAYS GOD, THAT I WILL POUR OUT OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL FLESH; YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS.


Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

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[Biblewriter]

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."


Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.
Act 2:15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
Act 2:17 'AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE LAST DAYS, SAYS GOD, THAT I WILL POUR OUT OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL FLESH; YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS.


Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

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You neglected the rest of the prophecy you cited from Zechariah 12.

11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; 14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart. Zechariah 12:11-14

It is obvious that this did not happen at the time our Lord was crucified, or even near that time. I know you think this part refers to what happened abut 40 years (a generation) later. But that is not what the prophecy says. It says that this shall happen "in that day."

This is typical of Preterist, Historicist, and almost all other anti-dispensational arguments. They typically pretend that the details of what a prophecy says are not important.

 

[Davy]

Saddens me to see such bickering over Scripture just because of doctrines of men.

Dispensationalism was created by John Darby, the same British preacher that first preached a pre-tribulational rapture in a Church in 1830's Great Britain. It was never a doctrine of the first Church, not even for over 1,800 years! Dispensationalism was a by-product of the pre-trib theory, because God's OT Word reveals the gathering back of all the 12 tribes of Israel, and Darby, et al, struggled with how Christ's Church fits in all that. Easy, just separate Israel and Christ's Church, and show it with dispensations for each.

These are some of the Scriptures which Dispensationalists have used to try and do that separation, and creation of their pet 'Church ages' theory, and putting Israel on earth during Christ's future Millennial reign while they are supposedly in Heaven.

And I find it very strange that they just pass over what Paul said in Eph.3:6 about Gentiles becoming fellowheirs of the 'same body', meaning heirs WITH Israel, not separate from Israel. However, they have to deny many other Scriptures in God's Word to try and make their theories work.

1 Cor 9:17
17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
KJV

Eph 3:2-8
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward:
3 How that by revelation He made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of His power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
KJV

Gal 2:7-8
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For He That wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
KJV

 

[Dale]

The scriptures very clearly say that the people of God will worship God with animal sacrifices during the millennium. At least at the beginning, every one of these people will have believed in Jesus, because the rebels, and those that transgress against God, will have just been purged from their midst. (See Ezekiel 20:33-38)

This worship, based on animal sacrifice, could not be said to be Christian, yet it will be done by people that have believed in Jesus, as clearly seen in Zechariah 12:10-14 and Isaiah 4:3.

You make it sound like God wants us to return to Judaism in the Millenium.

How do you reconcile that with the message of Hebrews in the New Testament?