The Sabbath: Universal law or Mosaic shadow?

DamianWarS · Dec 15, 2021

Kilk1 said:
What passage would you use to support that the 4th commandment is part of something bigger? Would Hebrews 4:1-11 (especially Hebrews 4: be an example, in your view?

I find Genesis 1 to be one of the most unappreciated passages that's full of foreshadowing and prophecy but all we can do is fight over if it's literal or not and refuse to read it with a goal that goes beyond the literal.

Hebrews 4 is convoluted and people have used it here to support opposing views so I don't find it useful in this conversation. However, reading Genesis 1 through the lens of Christ is not something I made up. I would say not "Hebrews 4" but "2 Corinthians 4" has greater precedence, particularly vs 6 calling Christ the light and reveals the Genesis 1 creation account to be more than the surface words, and the account points to Christ. 5:17 calls us a "new creation" under Christ, if we want to know what's inside of creation we should read Genesis 1, and inside it is the rest of day 7.

When we read the creation account in this way the days transform into something else defined by Christ not just surface words or separated acts/days or law. the days and actions are bound to each other, in a specific order, and point to Christ and we should take notice. this concept of the creation account ending in rest is then rooted in Christ not in law. The darkness is vanquished by the light then goes through a transformation that ends in rest, Christ is this light (2 Cor 4:5) and he offers us this rest (Mat 11:28) the result is we are a new creation (2 Cor 5:17) under Christ (which includes day 7).

DamianWarS · Dec 15, 2021

guevaraj said:
Brother, the first day in Genesis helps us understand what God is saying in Hebrews 3 and 4. God calls us in Hebrews 3 and 4 to enter His "rest", established on the seventh day of creation.

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” (Hebrews 4:1-5 NLT)

The reason God takes us to the beginning with the word "rest" is because the tradition since Joshua of the Sabbath is incorrect outside of the Promised Land. We have not understood God's definition of a weekday in Genesis since Joshua because of the human tradition in the Promised Land of the Sabbath as a weekday as it was in Eden when the Sabbath actually falls between two days of the week in the Promised Land. There are two announcements in the message of Hebrews 3 and 4 about God's "rest" on the seventh day of creation.

First, they did not enter His "rest" during the 40 years that they kept the seventh day of the week with Manna from morning to morning near the Promised Land.

Second, Joshua did not give them God's "rest" even though they entered God's "rest" in the Promised Land from evening to evening.

Those under Joshua did not understand the Sabbath lesson with Manna from morning to morning that God expects us to understand! The difference between the Sabbath with Manna for 40 years from morning to morning and the Sabbath in the Promised Land from evening to evening is that one is the seventh day of the week and the other is not. My church assumes as you that the sentence in Genesis 1:5 starts the first day on an evening, but it only gives the end of the first day as a "night" from evening to morning. The first day ends in a morning and not in an evening like the Sabbath in the Promised Land. The first day started before this sentence, in the special case of the first day from first light to light again in the "morning".

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was EVENING, and there was MORNING—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)

From evening to morning is what God called "night", we are missing a morning to evening that God called "day".

Notice that God did not say in the next passage the "night" half from evening to morning as He said on the first day.

It shall be to you a sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict your souls; on the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening, you shall celebrate your sabbath.” (Leviticus 23:32 NKJV)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

are you suggesting a true sabbath from morning to evening and we should be following this day? I'm afraid that I can't track with any of that logic so I'm not sure if our conversations will be productive since it seems your position is quite clear.

guevaraj · Dec 15, 2021

DamianWarS said:
are you suggesting a true sabbath from morning to evening and we should be following this day? I'm afraid that I can't track with any of that logic so I'm not sure if our conversations will be productive since it seems your position is quite clear.

Brother, God taught in the Promised Land to remember the Sabbath in the Eden time zone. When God made "holy" His "rest" on the seventh day in Eden, He separated the Sabbath from the week in the Eden time zone. God taught in the Promised Land to remember the Sabbath together all over the world. Together, as when multinational corporations have an emergency meeting via video conference with their heads in many countries of the world at different local times for those in different time zones.

So the creation of the heavens and the earth and everything in them was completed. On the seventh day God had finished his work of creation, so he rested from all his work. And God blessed the seventh day and declared it holy, because it was the day when He rested from all his work of creation. (Genesis 2:1-3 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

SabbathBlessings · Dec 16, 2021

guevaraj said:
Brother, God taught in the Promised Land to remember the Sabbath in the Eden time zone. When God made "holy" His "rest" on the seventh day in Eden, He separated the Sabbath from the week in the Eden time zone. God taught in the Promised Land to remember the Sabbath together all over the world. Together, as when multinational corporations have an emergency meeting via video conference with their heads in many countries of the world at different local times for those in different time zones.

So the creation of the heavens and the earth and everything in them was completed. On the seventh day God had finished his work of creation, so he rested from all his work. And God blessed the seventh day and declared it holy, because it was the day when He rested from all his work of creation. (Genesis 2:1-3 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

This is nonsense, not a biblical teaching or an SDA teaching. You added “in the time zone of Eden” not in the Bible. It’s evening to evening Lev 23:32 so everyone can enjoy Sabbath regardless what time zone they are in. Jews have been celebrating Sabbath for thousands of years, please stop trying to make a case that only one person on earth- you- keeps the Sabbath correctly. I would prayerfully consider what you are teaching here, because its not biblical.

guevaraj · Dec 16, 2021

SabbathBlessings said:
This is nonsense, not a biblical teaching or an SDA teaching. You added “in the time zone of Eden” not in the Bible. It’s evening to evening Lev 23:32 so everyone can enjoy Sabbath regardless what time zone they are in. Jews have been celebrating Sabbath for thousands of years, please stop trying to make a case that only one person on earth- you- keeps the Sabbath correctly. I would prayerfully consider what you are teaching here, because its not biblical.

Sister, I am not the only one! Many have understood the days of the week from morning to morning in Genesis. Rejected is due to human tradition since Joshua of the Sabbath in the Promised Land as a day of the week that God corrects in Hebrews 3 and 4. My book solves the issue presented in this scholarly paper by Amanda McGuire in 2008. The title of my book is: "Proof of God in the International Date Line: Site of our Origin". The Sabbath in Israel is not a day of the week as it was in Eden because remembered is the Sabbath in the Eden time zone that falls in Israel between two days of the week instead of the Seventh day as in Eden. The first day in Genesis below is from morning to morning, in the special case of the first day from first light to light again in the morning. Evening falls in the middle of the first day dividing the halves that God called "day" and "night", in that order. Each day of the week ends in a "night" in which God has nothing to report from evening to morning because He only creates during the first half of light from morning to evening and stops creating every "night" from evening to morning.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was MORNING—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Servus · Dec 16, 2021

pescador said:
Under the New Covenant, Christians are supposed to rest from doing their own works in order to be justified, and to rest in Christ.

I don't get what you're saying. Could you elaborate on it some please?

SabbathBlessings · Dec 16, 2021

guevaraj said:
Sister, I am not the only one! Many have understood the days of the week from morning to morning in Genesis. Rejected is due to human tradition since Joshua of the Sabbath in the Promised Land as a day of the week that God corrects in Hebrews 3 and 4. My book solves the issue presented in this scholarly paper by Amanda McGuire in 2008. The title of my book is: "Proof of God in the International Date Line: Site of our Origin". The Sabbath in Israel is not a day of the week as it was in Eden because remembered is the Sabbath in the Eden time zone that falls in Israel between two days of the week instead of the Seventh day as in Eden. The first day in Genesis below is from morning to morning, in the special case of the first day from first light to light again in the morning. Evening falls in the middle of the first day dividing the halves that God called "day" and "night", in that order. Each day of the week ends in a "night" in which God has nothing to report from evening to morning because He only creates during the first half of light from morning to evening and stops creating every "night" from evening to morning.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was MORNING—the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 NIV)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

You don’t need a book “outside the Bible” to explain the Sabbath. The Bible already does this.

ralliann · Dec 16, 2021

Kilk1 said:
That seems to be a good point. I will continue to study.

The reason it is in the talmud is because it was taught in the synagogues concerning Gentiles. There are those which say it was a later invention. But there is clear it was not a later invention. The Apostles themselves spoke of it.

1. An heir of the righteousness which is by faith (ie the just shall live by faith)
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. {moved … : or, being wary }

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

2.) Noah was a preacher of righteousness to the world then.
2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
Gentiles had a portion of universal law.

Remember Noachide in Judaism has as its focus Gentile status for a place in "the world to come", "kingdom of heaven". It is not about having a place "earthly", "worldly" kingdom.

Therefore the council decision concerning Gentiles spoke of what was taught concerning them in the synagogues.

Ritual law, was for the earthly Shadow, and worldly inheritance.

SabbathBlessings · Dec 16, 2021

ralliann said:
The reason it is in the talmud is because it was taught in the synagogues concerning Gentiles. There are those which say it was a later invention. But there is clear it was not a later invention. The Apostles themselves spoke of it.

1. An heir of the righteousness which is by faith (ie the just shall live by faith)
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. {moved … : or, being wary }

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

2.) Noah was a preacher of righteousness to the world then.
2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
Gentiles had a portion of universal law.

Remember Noachide in Judaism has as its focus Gentile status for a place in "the world to come", "kingdom of heaven". It is not about having a place "earthly", "worldly" kingdom.

Therefore the council decision concerning Gentiles spoke of what was taught concerning them in the synagogues.

Ritual law, was for the earthly Shadow, and worldly inheritance.

Are you teaching that Noah did not obey God? That’s not what my Bible teaches.

2 Peter 2:5
and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;

Psalms 119:172
My tongue shall speak of Your word, For all Your commandments are righteousness.

The weekly Sabbath is not a “ritual” according to God. It is the personally spoken Word of God, personally written Word of God and according to God we are to weekly keep the seventh day Sabbath holy Exodus 20:8-11, not a request or a suggestion, but a commandment. Exodus 20 which came in a covenant of Ten, not nine. Exodus 34:28 God promised the Sabbath would be a perpetual covenant Exodus 31:16 which we see being fulfilled Isaiah 66:23. It’s always best to believe God and I don’t think remember means “forget”.

Many people did not believe Noah and we are told the Second Coming of Jesus will be like the days of Noah. Keeping the Sabbath is a sign between us and God. Ezekiel 20:20. According to scripture God’s saints keep all of God’s commandment Revelation 14:12. We should always obey God, not to be saved, but because we have faith that God knows what is best for us and we love Him. God bless

SabbathBlessings · Dec 16, 2021

Seems like people spend all this time trying to disprove God’s spoken and written Word and the holy day of the Lord thy God that is indisputable Genesis 2:1-3 Exodus 20:10 Isaiah 58:13 but spends no time trying to make a biblical case why they go to church on a day that is not blessed by God, was not made holy by God, is not God’s holy day, not a day that God made holy for us, not the day Jesus as His custom worshipped, or the disciples - not a commandment of God, but Sabbath keeping is, people spend hours trying to discredit God’s commandment and true holy Sabbath day. What message to do you think this is sending to God? That you can pick His holy day over the one God choose? Man’s authority is greater than God’s? The Sabbath is a commandment of God, Sunday keeping is not, but a tradition of man Matthew 15:3-9 comes to mind.

Perhaps something everyone should pray about.

DamianWarS · Dec 16, 2021

SabbathBlessings said:
but spends no time trying to make a biblical case why they go to church on a day that is not blessed by God

What is the biblical precedence for these things?

1. There are day(s) blessed by God and there are day(s) not blessed by God? which days are exactly not blessed by God? Are there days cursed by God? in the creation account does not God conclude each day calling it good?

2. Where does the bible says we should "go to church" only on days that are "blessed" by God but somehow doing the same on "unblessed days" is seen as less? For that matter where does the bible say we should "go to church"?

you seem to be superimposing post-biblical church tradition with the Sabbath but then wag your finger at others who are doing the same because they have landed on a different day. it would seem hypocritical to say your post-biblical value of "going to church" on a specific day is better than someone else post-biblical value of "going to church" on a specific day.

ralliann · Dec 16, 2021

SabbathBlessings said:
Are you teaching that Noah did not obey God? That’s not what my Bible teaches.

Clearly, I am not. So why are you asking this?

SabbathBlessings said:
2 Peter 2:5
and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;

Yep, He certainly was a preacher of righteousness. Noachide.

SabbathBlessings said:
Psalms 119:172
My tongue shall speak of Your word, For all Your commandments are righteousness.

Yep. Noah, Building the ark. Abraham Sacrificing of his Son. Were righteous commandments to them

SabbathBlessings said:
The weekly Sabbath is not a “ritual” according to God.

Yes it is, by the law in the Sinai covenant.
It was made a holy convocation, a memorial feast.
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

SabbathBlessings said:
It is the personally spoken Word of God, personally written Word of God and according to God we are to weekly keep the seventh day Sabbath holy Exodus 20:8-11, not a request or a suggestion, but a commandment.

A feast day which were days the offerings were designated each day.

SabbathBlessings said:
to Exodus 20 which came in a covenant of Ten, not nine. Exodus 34:28 God promised the Sabbath would be a perpetual covenant Exodus 31:16 which we see being fulfilled Isaiah 66:23. It’s always best to believe God and I don’t think remember means “forget”.

Not forgetting=to remember. The feast days many which were for memorials.
Passover is a sacrifice, and the feast (of unleavened bread) is for a memorial.
Many

SabbathBlessings said:
people did not believe Noah and we are told the Second Coming of Jesus will be like the days of Noah. Keeping the Sabbath is a sign between us and God.

It is a sign of the covenant made with ISRAEL. Noah, the rainbow, Abraham, the circumcision.

SabbathBlessings said:
Ezekiel 20:20. According to scripture God’s saints keep all of God’s commandment Revelation 14:12. We should always obey God, not to be saved, but because we have faith that God knows what is best for us and we love Him. God bless

We who are In Christ (messiah) are in a new covenant.
Noachide was clearly taught in the synagogues, and it's principals by the Apostles. The council of acts has determined Gentiles do not need to keep the Law of Sinai.
You might consider universal law being law which the nations were judged according to.

De 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
De 9:6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

Universal law. This is the Judgement on the nations, and Israel itself.
18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled
28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.

SabbathBlessings · Dec 16, 2021

DamianWarS said:
What is the biblical precedence for these things?

1. There are day(s) blessed by God and there are day(s) not blessed by God? which days are exactly not blessed by God? Are there days cursed by God? in the creation account does not God conclude each day calling it good?

2. Where does the bible says we should "go to church" only on days that are "blessed" by God but somehow doing the same on "unblessed days" is seen as less? For that matter where does the bible say we should "go to church"?

you seem to be superimposing post-biblical church tradition with the Sabbath but then wag your finger at others who are doing the same because they have landed on a different day. it would seem hypocritical to say your post-biblical value of "going to church" on a specific day is better than someone else post-biblical value of "going to church" on a specific day.

I noticed you did not provide any scripture to answer any of the questions I presented . If you have proof that God blessed any other say except the seventh day, made holy any other day except the seventh day to Him and for us. sanctified any other day except the seventh day. Where is Sunday keeping a commandment of God? Or a new day of worship now or in Heaven. These scriptures are all reserved for the seventh day Sabbath, otherwise please provide scripture to make your case.

Lev 23:3 ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

Isaiah 66:23 And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the LORD.

SabbathBlessings · Dec 16, 2021

ralliann said:
Clearly, I am not. So why are you asking this?

Yep, He certainly was a preacher of righteousness. Noachide.

Yep. Noah, Building the ark. Abraham Sacrificing of his Son. Were righteous commandments to them

Yes it is, by the law in the Sinai covenant.
It was made a holy convocation, a memorial feast.
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

A feast day which were days the offerings were designated each day.

Not forgetting=to remember. The feast days many which were for memorials.
Passover is a sacrifice, and the feast (of unleavened bread) is for a memorial.
Many
It is a sign of the covenant made with ISRAEL. Noah, the rainbow, Abraham, the circumcision.
We who are In Christ (messiah) are in a new covenant.
Noachide was clearly taught in the synagogues, and it's principals by the Apostles. The council of acts has determined Gentiles do not need to keep the Law of Sinai.
You might consider universal law being law which the nations were judged according to.

De 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
De 9:6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

Universal law. This is the Judgement on the nations, and Israel itself.
18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled
28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.

What are you trying to prove in these scriptures and how is it revelant to Noah obeying God's commandments? Obeying God on a direct order given to Noah to build an ark is not the same as Noah obeying the law of God.

ralliann · Dec 16, 2021

SabbathBlessings said:
What are you trying to prove in these scriptures and how is it revelant to Noah obeying God's commandments?

It is relevant as to what the nations were judged for obviously. As well as Israel was subject to the same judgement, as were any stranger among them. For the circumcised the uncircumcised alike, these were abominations whereby, THE LAND, would spew them out. Obviously it was universally SIN.

SabbathBlessings said:
Obeying God on a direct order given to Noah to build an ark is not the same as Noah obeying the law of God.

Oh, so what God commands some, are not universal to all. Gotcha. That is the point here. As well as each covenant has a sign, to be kept as part and parcel with keeping the covenant.

SabbathBlessings · Dec 16, 2021

ralliann said:
It is relevant as to what the nations were judged for obviously. As well as Israel was subject to the same judgement, as were any stranger among them. For the circumcised the uncircumcised alike, these were abominations whereby, THE LAND, would spew them out. Obviously it was universally SIN.

Where is circumcision in the Ten Commandments? Paul said this about circumcision

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. We should believe Paul

Scripture tells us we are judged by the Ten Commandments-

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

Where do you find the "He who said" commandments? Exodus 20 and we are told to keep the whole law and the Ten Commandments is a covenant of Ten according to God Exodus 34:28 and God personally wrote His holy law, God personally spoke His law to a whole nation and kept His law in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God's Temple that is also in Heaven Revelation 11:19

ralliann said:
Oh, so what God commands some, are noit universal to all. Gotcha. That is the point here.

So are you saying that God commanded everyone to build an ark? Maybe you can provide that scripture.

ralliann · Dec 16, 2021

SabbathBlessings said:
Where is circumcision in the Ten Commandments?

It is not there, because circumcision is a covenant, made with made with their fathers.
Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

It is not from Moses......as we see here..
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,

SabbathBlessings said:
Paul said this about circumcision
1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. You should believe Paul.

Since circumcision is a covenant ....Here is what Paul says of circumcision.
indebted to Whole law
Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Why? The oath
Deut 29:1 These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
Deu 29:9 Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do.
10 ¶ Ye stand this day all of you before the LORD your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, with all the men of Israel,
11 Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water:
12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the LORD thy God, and into his oath, which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day: {enter: Heb. pass }
13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:

The whole law..Entering with in the oath...

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Seems to be a reference to collective guilt. An idea of Judaism.

All become subject to guilt, of one man. I have heard it called by at least one Rabbi, The collective nature of sin.

One man Achan....troubler of Israel

Jos 7:1 But the children of Israel committed a trespass in the accursed thing: for Achan, the son of Carmi, the son of Zabdi, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took of the accursed thing: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against the children of Israel.

About thirty six died..... as a result

Jos7:5 And the men of Ai smote of them about thirty and six men: for they chased them from before the gate even unto Shebarim, and smote them in the going down: wherefore the hearts of the people melted, and became as water.

Who sinned?

Israel has sinned......transgressed the covenant

10 And the LORD said unto Joshua, Get thee up; wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face? {liest: Heb. fallest }
11 Israel hath sinned, and they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: for they have even taken of the accursed thing, and have also stolen, and dissembled also, and they have put it even among their own stuff.

Who could not stand?

12 Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you.

Achan must be pointed out, and stoned......

25 And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.

Two and 1/2 tribes....turn away?

Jos 22:18 But that ye must turn away this day from following the LORD? and it will be, seeing ye rebel to day against the LORD, that to morrow he will be wroth with the whole congregation of Israel.
Jos 22:20 Did not Achan the son of Zerah commit a trespass in the accursed thing, and wrath fell on all the congregation of Israel? and that man perished not alone in his iniquity.

We read scripture very differently

SabbathBlessings · Dec 16, 2021

ralliann said:
It is not there, because circumcision is a covenant, made with made with their fathers.
Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

It is not from Moses......as we see here..
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,

Since circumcision is a covenant ....Here is what Paul says of circumcision.
indebted to Whole law
Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Why? The oath
Deut 29:1 These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
Deu 29:9 Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do.
10 ¶ Ye stand this day all of you before the LORD your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, with all the men of Israel,
11 Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water:
12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the LORD thy God, and into his oath, which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day: {enter: Heb. pass }
13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:

The whole law..Entering with in the oath...
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
All become subject to guilt of one man. I have heard it called by at least one Rabbi, The collective nature of sin.
One man Achan....
Jos 7:1 But the children of Israel committed a trespass in the accursed thing: for Achan, the son of Carmi, the son of Zabdi, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took of the accursed thing: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against the children of Israel.
About thirty six died.....
Jos7:5 And the men of Ai smote of them about thirty and six men: for they chased them from before the gate even unto Shebarim, and smote them in the going down: wherefore the hearts of the people melted, and became as water.
Israel has sinned......transgressed the covenant
10 ¶ And the LORD said unto Joshua, Get thee up; wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face? {liest: Heb. fallest }
11 Israel hath sinned, and they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: for they have even taken of the accursed thing, and have also stolen, and dissembled also, and they have put it even among their own stuff.
12 Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you.

Achan must be pointed out, and stoned......

25 And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.
Two and 1/2 tribes....turn away?

Jos 22:18 But that ye must turn away this day from following the LORD? and it will be, seeing ye rebel to day against the LORD, that to morrow he will be wroth with the whole congregation of Israel.
Jos 22:20 Did not Achan the son of Zerah commit a trespass in the accursed thing, and wrath fell on all the congregation of Israel? and that man perished not alone in his iniquity.

We read scripture very differently

Circumcision was discussed in depth by the Apostles and this is Paul's conclusion

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. We should believe Paul.

Again, circumcision is not part of the Ten Commandments and Paul tells us very plainly that is what matters.

And circumcision has nothing to do with the seventh day Sabbath that is part of the Ten Commandments written by the hand of God and spoken by God. Jesus said you break the least of the commandments and teach others; it comes with some warnings. Matthew 5:19

Yes, we read scripture very differently and we should never be closed off to hearing the Word of God and the truth. Jesus said if you love Me, keep My commandments so this shouldn't be so difficult. Jesus came to do the will of His Father and God wrote His will for us originally on stone for its eternal nature and now placed in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant. Hebrews 8:10

Psalms 40:8 I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart.”

I am not the one you need to convince that you do not have to keep the law of God, which includes the Sabbath commandment that God said is holy and asked us to remember.

Take care

ralliann · Dec 16, 2021

SabbathBlessings said:
Circumcision was discussed in depth by the Apostles

Yes, they did. You don't...

SabbathBlessings said:
and this is Paul's conclusion
1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. We should believe Paul.

The ten are the words of a covenant....

SabbathBlessings said:
Again, circumcision is not part of the Ten Commandments and Paul tells us very plainly that is what matters.

And circumcision has nothing to do with the seventh day Sabbath that is part of the Ten Commandments

Because each are covenants.....

SabbathBlessings said:
written by the hand of God and spoken by God.

It is a covenant.

SabbathBlessings said:
Jesus said you break the least of the commandments and teach others; it comes with some warnings. Matthew 5:19

He was speaking to the circumcision. What, they no longer needed to circumcise their Children? No longer needed to attend temple? No longer partake of passover? I do not think you intend that?
The law still applied as long as the temple still stood. Jews were commanded to keep Passover, still needed to maintain ritual purity etc. Surely the apostles did not conduct themselves in a manner to defile the temple, nor cause anyone else to either.

SabbathBlessings said:
Yes, we read scripture very differently and we should never be closed off to hearing the Word of God and the truth.

But you ignored Paul concerning his indepth teaching of circumcision.

SabbathBlessings said:
Jesus said if you love Me, keep My commandments so this shouldn't be so difficult. Jesus came to do the will of His Father and God wrote His will for us originally on stone for its eternal nature and now placed in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant. Hebrews 8:10

Psalms 40:8 I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart.”

I am not the one you need to convince that you do not have to keep the law of God, which includes the Sabbath commandment that God said is holy and asked us to remember.

Since you won't do any indepth, or address the scripture in discussion, all i can say is...I am not commanded to keep the Sinai covenant

SabbathBlessings said:
Take care

Ditto

LoveGodsWord · Dec 16, 2021

ralliann said:
Yes, they did. You don't...

The ten are the words of a covenant....

Because each are covenants.....

It is a covenant.

He was speaking to the circumcision. What, they no longer needed to circumcise their Children? No longer needed to attend temple? No longer partake of passover? I do not think you intend that?
The law still applied as long as the temple still stood. Jews were commanded to keep Passover, still needed to maintain ritual purity etc. Surely the apostles did not conduct themselves in a manner to defile the temple, nor cause anyone else to either.

But you ignored Paul concerning his indepth teaching of circumcision.

Since you won't do any indepth, or address the scripture in discussion, all i can say is...I am not commanded to keep the Sinai covenant

Ditto

Good luck telling that to God come judgement day. Gods' Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) *see Matthew 5:17-20; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:4. We are in the new covenant now not the old covenant but the new covenant does not abolish Gods' law it establishes Gods' law through love in the hearts of all those who through faith believe and follow what God's Word says (see 1 John 5:2-4; Romans 13:8-10, James 2:8-12; Matthew 22:36-40). We have to be born again *John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:6-9 to walk in the Spirit *Galatians 5:16 in order to receive a new heart through faith. This is Gods new covenant promise as defined in the scriptures in Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. When we are born again God's Spirit helps us to obey Gods' law not break God's laws *1 John 3:6-9. What is obsolete in the new covenant is the old covenant Mosaic laws for remission of sins (Levitical Priesthood; earthly Sanctuary; animal sacrifices and sin offerings, Feast days, circumcision etc) from the Mosaic book of the covenant *Exodus 24:7 not God's eternal laws that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. James says if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin.

Take Care.

The Sabbath: Universal law or Mosaic shadow?

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