The Sabbath of the TEN Commandments - for all mankind (V2)

[klutedavid]

No he hasn't.

Yes He has.

 

[klutedavid]

Hmmm...When I look up the definition for no one and nobody; I don't see those qualifiers. What dictionary are you using?

I am ahead of you there. I use the common usage in the English language. Dictionary take a while to catch up.

 

[klutedavid]

You've provided no scripture to support your assertion. I'm not buying it.

There Hark, I told you that circumcision is the law.

Leviticus 12:3
On the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

If your not circumcised, then, your not following the law.

 

[klutedavid]

So why aren't we in heaven then? He fulfilled yes. He made it more full, never says he abolished it, he completely it sure. Simply accomplished the requirements part of the debt to pay for sins, sins as in break god's first laws, second law was the debt needed to pay for the first law broken, which existed since the beginning, if it didn't then you claim that God isn't the same and changes his laws that determine what sin is.

Your understanding of the scripture is not up to the mark.

You openly admit that 600 laws were annulled by Jesus. As close as you can get to the entire law, being of no effect to Christians.

Then for some unknown reason, you exclude some laws you refer to as moral laws, the ten commandments.

You include those ten commandments, even though you know, that Jesus fulfilled all the, so called, moral laws. Incidentally, the sabbath is definitely not a moral law.

Then you proceed to interpret the scripture. Every time Paul uses the phrase, 'the law', you look to alter that phrase. Into another phrase like 'ceremonial law', or 'sacrificial law'.

Depending on the context that the phrase, 'the law', appears in. Then you might even accept that the phrase, 'the law' means 'the law'.

Truly astounding that method of interpretation.

Here is a question for you.

Drunkenness is a sin and drunkards will not be in heaven. This you will admit freely. So where in the law is drunkenness defined as a sin?

 

[Aussie Pete]

So you are Jesus on earth now that you don't sin? You never get sick? You won't die and be resurrected?

If I've replied already, my apologies........My spirit man does not sin. Body and soul are yet to be changed into the likeness of Christ. (1 John 3:2, 1 John 4:17)

 

[expos4ever]

They are that simple. Forever means forever.

No, obviously not.

You are basically saying that, on your say-so, Bible writers are forbidden from using metaphorical language to make a point. Yet it is clear that such metaphor and imagery is all over the place in Scripture. Let's apply your reasoning - that words like "forever" are always to be taken literally - to this text:

Let the rivers clap their hands, Let the mountains sing together for joy

I trust that readers will get the point - the author here is using exaggerated fanciful imagery to make a point. You are basically stripping scripture of any of the expressive power of metaphor.

Again: not only is there Biblical evidence that "end of the world" language is sometimes not intended to be taken literally, there is also extra-Biblical evidence that Jews would use such a strategy of metaphor.

 

[expos4ever]

No he hasn't.

Paul seems to think otherwise:

For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes.

 

[BobRyan]

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

Thank you for stating the obvious - we need that now and then

You have been show over and over again that things are not this simple.

I prefer to just accept the obvious rather than try to avoid it.

Many do not understand how, or refuse to believe that, Jews used the language of cosmic collapse as a metaphor for sociopolitical change: such texts were never intended to be taken literally.

Example: Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Look at the context - Babylon was being destroyed,

The Bible often uses local events then applies them as illustration of future catastrophe or cosmic significance.

We see it with the prediction of Christ as the coming Messiah - born of a virgin.
We see it in the end time predictions of the destruction of the world.

No stars fell.

We see falling stars all the time.. what we do not see that often is the sort of massive falling star "shower" that occurred in 1833 ‘They thought it was judgment day’: The night the stars fell on the US south

Which began a whole new area of science for monitoring falling stars.

============================
from; Leonids - Wikipedia
"The Leonids are famous because their meteor showers, or storms, can be among the most spectacular. Because of the storm of 1833 and the recent developments in scientific thought of the time (see for example the identification of Halley's Comet), the Leonids have had a major effect on the development of the scientific study of meteors, which had previously been thought to be atmospheric phenomena. Although it has been suggested the Leonid meteor shower and storms have been noted in ancient times,[9] it was the meteor storm of 1833 that broke into people's modern day awareness – it was of truly superlative strength. One estimate of the peak rate is over one hundred thousand meteors an hour,[10] but another, done as the storm abated, estimated in excess of 240,000 meteors during the nine hours of the storm,[1] over the entire region of North America east of the Rocky Mountains."

And then there was the historic "dark day" where the moon was darkened.

https://www.history.com/news/remembering-new-englands-dark-day

What caused the mystery of the Dark Day?
"The sense that a decisive moment was afoot would have been bolstered by the fact that during the preceding days, the sun and moon glowed red."

 

[expos4ever]

We see falling stars all the time.

You are evading, of course.

The point is that language describing cosmic collapse is not necessarily to be taken literally. This is a reall challenge for you - we know that Isaiah described the fall of Babylon with language about cosmic events that was never intended to be taken literally.

Those with an agenda to have Jesus declaring that the Law will last till "heaven and earth" pass away have to rule out such metaphorical use of end-of-the-world language. Otherwise, their position crumbles from beneath them.

And yet the Old Testament is clear - such end-of-the-world language can indeed be used metaphorically.

 

[BobRyan]

You have been show over and over again that things are not this simple. Many do not understand how, or refuse to believe that, Jews used the language of cosmic collapse as a metaphor for sociopolitical change: such texts were never intended to be taken literally.

Example: Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Look at the context - Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. No stars fell. And the moon was not darkened. .

Isaiah 13
Judgment on the Day of the Lord
6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is near!
It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore all hands will fall limp,
And every man’s heart will melt.
8 They will be terrified,
Pains and anguish will take hold of them;
They will writhe like a woman in labor,
They will look at one another in astonishment,
Their faces aflame.
9 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
Cruel, with fury and burning anger,
To make the land a desolation;
And He will exterminate its sinners from it.
10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light.
11 Thus I will punish the world for its evil
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud
And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.
12 I will make mortal man scarcer than pure gold
And mankind than the gold of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble,
And the earth will be shaken from its place
At the fury of the Lord of hosts
In the day of His burning anger.

Sun dark... the moon does not "shed its light" could be any variation from the normal light of the moon but the sun would appear to be dark when normally it would be light.

Just like Isaiah 8, and 9

Is 8
3 So I approached the prophetess, and she conceived and gave birth to a son. Then the Lord said to me, “Name him Maher-shalal-hash-baz; 4 for before the boy knows how to cry out ‘My father’ or ‘My mother,’ the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be carried away before the king of Assyria.”

Is 9
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;


---- which is then used to point to the first coming of Christ

Is 9
2 The people who walk in darkness
Will see a great light;
Those who live in a dark land,
The light will shine on them.
3 You shall multiply the nation,
You shall increase their gladness;
They will be glad in Your presence
As with the gladness of harvest,
As men rejoice when they divide the spoil.
4 For You shall break the yoke of their burden and the staff on their shoulders,
The rod of their oppressor, as at the battle of Midian.
5 For every boot of the booted warrior in the battle tumult,
And cloak rolled in blood, will be for burning, fuel for the fire.
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this.

Ezek 28

And Matthew 24 - destruction of Jerusalem... then used to point to the end of the world at the 2nd coming

Here we have the story of Lucifer and his ultimate demise

Ezek 28
“You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

Addressed to -- 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God,

So then a literal judgment to fall upon the king of Tyre - and yet that becomes "a type" of the literal judgment to fall upon Satan in the literal future.

You are evading, of course.

You have free will - ignore the point as you wish.

The point is that language describing cosmic collapse is not necessarily to be taken literally.

On the contrary - the point is that local events are used all through the Bible to also point to the larger plan of salvation , eschatological events.

 

[Bob S]

↑
Hark wrote:

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

Bob Ryan responded:

Thank you for stating the obvious - we need that now and then

You play lip service to the jots and tittles and yet pick only a couple of the laws God dictated to Moses. I know, Ellen didn't have any visions on any of the other laws like the feast days, so you go on your merry way putting your trust in her.

 

[BobRyan]

I posted this

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

Thank you for stating the obvious - we need that now and then

You have been show over and over again that things are not this simple.

I prefer to just accept the obvious rather than try to avoid it.

↑
you play lip service to the jots and tittles and yet pick only a couple of the laws God dictated to Moses. I know, Ellen didn't have any visions ...<obligatory rant deleted here>

Were you hoping to address an actual point in the post??

 

[Bob S]

Very often we have debate and differences on the Sabbath and LAW -- but now and then some Bible details surface that are so incredibly obvious - that scholarship on BOTH sides freely admit to them.

That will be our focus in this thread - so this could be pretty easy for all to find some level of agreement.

Some are interested in this teaching in the Bible about the 7th day Sabbath of the Ten Commandments being for all mankind. (as opposed to the Sabbath of the TEN Commandments being temporary or merely ceremonial).

If indeed it is for all mankind then why is it in some parts of the World no one knows about it and never have known anything about it?

Paul plainly wrote that the ten commandments were temporary and Jewish scholars know it to be a ceremonial law.

1. When stating that the Bible Sabbath of the Ten Commandments is part of the moral law of God and is applicable to all mankind I am stating a Bible detail so obvious that all major Christian denominations agree - the TEN are part of the moral law of God written on the heart (see the "Baptist Confession of Faith" sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" section 19 and the Catholic Catechism on the TEN Commandments... etc)

You who belongs to a group of people who believe that all Christendom except the SDA church is Babylon stoop to use those Babylonians to prove a point?

2. Isaiah 56:6-8 specifically singles out gentiles for Sabbath keeping.

So what!

3. In the NT we see gentiles keeping Sabbath in Acts 13, 17 and 18

Not hardly. Where do you get the idea that they were "keeping" Sabbath?

4. in Isaiah 66:23 for all eternity in the New Heavens and New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship".

Where does it say for all eternity? In fact Is 65 tells us that man might live as long as a tree. Man will live to be over one hundred.

If anyone feels this is not a valid thread topic or content for "Sabbath and the Law forum" - please contact me.

And what will you do about it?

 

[Studyman]

Well, that is what He said He came to do, so according to you He failed.
Matt5:
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Fulfil,
to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.)
to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time:


Did Jesus fulfil the prophecies concerning His coming? He came to do two things, according to the verse, ending the prophecies about His coming and likewise ending the Law.

Can you show us a "Prophesy" that teaches the Messiah was coming to "end the Law"? From Gen to Malachi I find no such prophesy. Please post them so we can all see the Prophecies you are claiming exists.

And this prophesy from Jesus Himself, about the fulfillment of future works HE also came to do, shall we ignore them?

Matt. 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Can you show me the evidence that this Prophesy has been fulfilled? And there is still "iniquity", so by Paul's own Word, there is still Law. I could fill this page with Prophesies about the Great Judgment that includes Jesus, which have not yet come to pass.

Why do religious men preach "all" has been fulfilled when it is so clear that it has not? What is their agenda for teaching such untruths?

We are told to "Watch" and be diligent to be found by Him in a certain lifestyle.

2 Pet. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Why do religious men want to convince us that "ALL" has already been fulfilled, when we are told they have not? It's almost as if there is a spirit out there that doesn't want us to "watch" and be diligent to be found blameless. It's almost as if there is a spirit out there that is trying to convince us we are already there, that "we shall surely not die" regardless of iniquity.

No, the teaching that "ALL" has already been fulfilled is a deception of the highest order. I would say don't walk, but run from the religious voice who would promote such untruths.

 

[HARK!]

Yes He has.

Proof?

I've been waiting for his second coming.

 

[Andre_b]

Gentiles keeping the Sabbath you respond:

So what!

Now that's funny, you straight up deny that it's been prophecied that the gentiles would keep the Sabbath. So God would say all these commandments, remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Very strong words but he would be vague as to stop keeping this commandment, like "forget the sabbath day". Why would the apostles "keep the Sabbath according to the commandment" after Jesus was crucified and in the grave? Wouldn't Jesus have told them, you do not have to keep the Sabbath anymore. Yet he SPECIFICALLY said "MAN was made for the Sabbath"

You who belongs to a group of people who believe that all Christendom except the SDA church is Babylon stoop to use those Babylonians to prove a point?

You realize that there are over 400 denominations apart from SDA that keeps the Saturday Sabbath?

3. In the NT we see gentiles keeping Sabbath in Acts 13, 17 and 18
You said:
Not hardly. Where do you get the idea that they were "keeping" Sabbath?

Why would they even mention the Sabbath if it wasn't important anymore? They could have simply said they reasoned with Jews and Greeks, period. Yet they said they did this specifically on the Sabbath, including the Greeks which they could have simply told them to meet any other time.

Acts 13
42 As Paul and Barnabas were going out, the people kept begging that these things might be spoken to them the next Sabbath. 43 Now when [the meeting of] the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.

Paul Turns to the Gentiles

44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord.
This would have been the perfect time for Paul to simply tell them let's meet tomorrow instead of the NEXT SABBATH. Or any other time, yet the gentiles met with Paul every Sabbath as it is stated constantly the next Sabbath over and over.

not according to the Jews custom, but according to PAUL's CUSTOM
Acts 17
And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures.

Acts 18:
4 And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.
He could have left out the word Sabbath since it's unimportant according to you. It would have simply read "he was reasoning in the synagogue and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks". He specifically says the SABBATH because IT IS IMPORTANT. YET YOU IGNORE THIS CLEARLY.

 

[HARK!]

Paul seems to think otherwise:

For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes.

Things aren't always as they seem, especially with Paul.

Revelation 1:7 - Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

[Studyman]

You have been show over and over again that things are not this simple. Many do not understand how, or refuse to believe that, Jews used the language of cosmic collapse as a metaphor for sociopolitical change: such texts were never intended to be taken literally.

Example: Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Look at the context - Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. No stars fell. And the moon was not darkened. The obvious point: language about the end of the world, such as we see here, and such as Jesus used, is not necessarily to be taken literally.

When Jesus says that it is easier for heaven and earth to pass than for the law to end, it is plausible indeed that He is participating in this well-documented tradition of using end-of-the-world language in a highly metaphorical sense.

There are some who understand that the stars and "moon" are symbolic of the "light of the night", while the sun is the "Light of the day". The Christ speaks in parables for a reason.

I think it is Biblically true to say Jesus is the Light of the Day, and satan is the light of the night, symbolically speaking.

So when satans church, Babylon, is being exposed as a fraud, the great light of the night is darkened, no longer giving off its light, and his demons are exposed and fall.

Jn. 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. 5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

1 Thes. 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

It seems Hark understands this, and both Jesus and Paul understands this, and I am pretty sure I understand this, but I'm not so sure you do.

Maybe you might consider Hark and the Holy Scriptures He posts for the edification of the brethren.

When Jesus says it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, maybe that is HIS way of telling you God's Law is still here. Kind of like saying it is easier for a camel to pass through an eye of a needle.

 

[HARK!]

Paul plainly wrote that the ten commandments were temporary and Jewish scholars know it to be a ceremonial law.

No he didn't

 

[HARK!]

Jewish scholars know it to be a ceremonial law.

You mean Pharisees.

So you build your dogma on the opinions of Pharisees?