THE SABBATH IS GOD'S 4th COMMANDMENT - WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS IT IS ABOLISHED?

[Dkh587]

I probably know the OT better than you do. The words of Moses were the words of GOD for Israel until Christ.

In the real world, they are still the words of God.

 

[Jack Meredith]

How, exactly, does one keep the Sabbath? And what part did animal sacrifice play in keeping it?

 

[Acts2:38]

The scriptures here do not say God's 10 commandments have been ABOLISHED.

Hello there,

Checked out your links to other threads you did. Thank you for doing what most here have not, provide scripture in an attempt to back your position.

"Is the sabbath removed"?

The sabbath is Saturday. It is a ceremony to be done for Saturday, the seventh day.

However, Christ rose again on Sunday, the first day of the week.

In the book of Acts, people had taken communion and came together to worship on the first day of the week, not on the seventh.

You seem to be on the same page as that we understand Luke 24:44 and the such.
And we have been told "why" they needed the laws in Galatians 3:19, that it was to be in effect until the "seed should come" Genesis 3:15; Genesis 12:1-3; Galatians 3:16 (Jesus).

If we look here, Galatians 3:24-25, the sabbath (saturday) is not binding upon us anymore. See also Ephesians 2:13-15.

Jesus's sacrifice on the cross abolished the first covenant (old law Exodus 20:8) (See also Jeremiah 31:31-34)

He abolished it "in the flesh" - His death on the cross Colossians 2:14-17

The new law aka new covenant came into effect in Acts 2, when Christ's church was established (see Acts 2:36-47).

From that point on, people are meeting on the first day of the week, Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:1-2, for example.

Another reason to, is like I previously said, Christ rose on the first day of the week, Mark 16:1-6; Luke 24:1; John 20:1. The day the church began was on the first day (Pentecost) see example Leviticus 23:9-16.

This is why Sabbath (saturday) is removed and no longer binding.

 

[Acts2:38]

Ok.

Alrighty. You take care friend.

 

[Kaon]

How, exactly, does one keep the Sabbath? And what part did animal sacrifice play in keeping it?

Honest answer?

The Redeemer is the Ultimate Sacrifice. It would be foolish to kill a bull for a sin offering when the Word of God shed His blood for every human's sin. However (paradoxically, even,) the Law is still in effect: it would just be ridiculous to sacrifice a bull when the Redeemer is The Sacrifice.

How to keep the Sabbath? The first day of the first month of the year is the new moon after the solstice/when the barley turns green in Israel. From there, six days you count and that is your sabbath day until the next year. Don't do any servile work, or any work you wouldn't normally do (i.e. cooking, setting up family time, electricity, etc.) The day was made for us by our Father - an entire day He made for our rest. And, it matters that it is on the 7th day.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

How, exactly, does one keep the Sabbath? And what part did animal sacrifice play in keeping it?

Hi Jack,

Nice to meet you here and a big welcome to you. I think that is a great question you asked.

To answer this question let's look at the scriptures. I think Jesus is our best example on how to keep the Sabbath.

HOW TO KEEP THE SABBATH

Exodus 20
8, Remember the SABBATH DAY, to KEEP IT HOLY. <Why?> Because God made it Holy for mankind and commands us to keep it as a Holy day)
9, Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
10, But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: <WHY>
11, For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT.

WHAT DAY IS GOD'S SABBATH?

v10 The SEVENTH DAY of the week. (Saturday)

WHEN DOES THE SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK START?

Genesis 1
4, And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5, And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

A day in God's time is the night (darkness) and the light make up one day. The DAY in God's WORD starts at SUNSET to SUNSET

ALL UNECCESSARY WORK TO BE DONE BEFORE FRIDAY SUNSET

Exodus 16
22, And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.
23, And he said to them, This is that which the LORD has said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath to the LORD: bake that which you will bake to day, and seethe that you will seethe; and that which remains over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

Mark 15:42, And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath

The preparation day is the 6th day of the week. This includes preparing to stop all business and secular work as well as any domestic work; cooking, cleaning; shopping, buying and selling that can be done on any other day of the week.

IT IS LAWFUL TO DO GOOD ON THE SABBATH?

Matthew 12
5, Or have you not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
6, But I say to you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
7, But if you had known what this means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, you would not have condemned the guiltless.
8, For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day
9, And when he was departed from there, he went into their synagogue:
10, And, behold, there was a man who had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
11, And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
12, How much then is a man better than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Mark 2:27, And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath

It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.

WHAT IS LAWFUL ON GOD'S SABBATH?

1. Remembering the creator and his creation (Exod 20:8-11)
2. Rest from all unnecessary work (Ecodus 20:10-11)
3. Doing good (Matt 12:12)
4. Prayer (Acts 16:13; Matt 21:13)
5. Worship the creator (Isaiah 58:13-14; Ex 34:14; 1KING 9:6; Rev 14:6-12)

Song, praise, bible study, helping others, preaching the gospel, resting, prayer, seeking God, remembering the creator and his creation. Walking in nature, going to church with like minded believers. (too many scriptures)

WHAT IS NOT LAWFUL ON GOD'S SABBATH?

WORK; all business and secular work as well as any domestic work; cooking, cleaning; shopping, buying and selling that can be done on any other day of the week and anything to do with work (Exodus 20:8-11; Ex 16:22-23; Matt 21:13).

.............

There is no purpose in FOLLOWING any of God's LAWs including the SABBATH if it is NOT done through FAITH that works by LOVE because it is ONLY as GOD writes his LAW to LOVE then we can take up our beds to follow him. LOVE is the fulfilling of GOd's LAW in those who BELIEVE (Rom 13:8-10)

Hope this is helpful.

God bless.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hello there, Checked out your links to other threads you did. Thank you for doing what most here have not, provide scripture in an attempt to back your position.

Hello Acts2:38, no problem it is only on God's Word we stand and fall and it is only to the Word of God that we should point all because Jesus is God's Word and it is the Word of God alone that we are all judged by come judgment day (John 1:1-3; 14; John 12:47-48).

"Is the sabbath removed"? The sabbath is Saturday. It is a ceremony to be done for Saturday, the seventh day.

The Sabbath is NOT a ceremonial law it is the 4th commandment in God's 10 Commandments (Exodus 20:8-11). In the 10 Commandments it is a MEMORIAL law and starts off to REMEMBER the Sabbath day to keep it holy. This is pointing back to GENESIS 2:1-3. Let's look at the scriptures.

EXODUS 20:8-11 [8], REMEMBER the SABBATH DAY, to KEEP IT HOLY. <Why?> [Because God made it Holy for mankind and commands us to keep it as a Holy day] [9], Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: [10], But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: <WHY> [11], For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT.

v8 shows that this commandment is a MEMORIAL of creation v11 [the reason for the 4th commandment]. Let's now look at the origin of God's 4th commandment...

GENESIS 2:1-3 [1], Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
[2], And ON THE SEVENTH DAY God ended his work which he had made; and he RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY from all his work which he had made. [3], And GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY, and made it HOLY <the 7th day>: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

The 4th commandment of the 10 Commandments is a MEMORIAL of CREATION and a sign that we worship the God of CREATION.

EXODUS 31:13-17 [13], Speak also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths you shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that you may know that I am the LORD that does sanctify you. [14], You shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defiles it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. [15], Six days may work be done; but on the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever does any work on the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. [16], Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a EVERLASTING covenant. [17], It is a sign between me and the children of Israel forever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

New Living Translation
The people of Israel must keep the Sabbath day by observing it from generation to generation. This is a covenant obligation for all time.

English Standard Version
Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.


New American Standard Bible
'So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.'

King James Bible
Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Christian Standard Bible
The Israelites must observe the Sabbath, celebrating it throughout their generations as a permanent covenant.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Let the children of Israel keep the sabbath, and celebrate it in their generations. It is an everlasting covenant

Darby Bible Translation
And the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations -- [it is] an everlasting covenant.

Now all of this links into the next key scripture as follows

............................

ISAIAH 66:22-23 [22], For as the NEW HEAVENS AND THE NEW EARTH, which I will make, shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your descendants and your name remain. [23], And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and FROM ONE SABBATH TO ANOTHER, shall all flesh come to worship before me, says the LORD.

............................

CONCLUSION: Yep the scriptures are pretty clear here that God's SABBATH is an EVERLASTING COVENANT that will be kept in the NEW EARTH.

In the OLD COVENANT however, God's 4th Commandment did have some ceremonial laws attached to it (burnt offerings and other sin offerings; now fulfilled in Christ our perfect sin offering) but these were not God's 4th Commandment which can be found in Exodus 20:8-11.

However, Christ rose again on Sunday, the first day of the week. In the book of Acts, people had taken communion and came together to worship on the first day of the week, not on the seventh.

Theses are interesting scriptures you have provided here. Let me ask you however where does it say here that God's 4th Commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day? Also in Acts where does it say they were taking communion? It says they broke bread but this translates as they had a meal together and the context of this scripture if you check it was that Paul was leaving the next day. None of those scriptures say that God's 4th commandments is abolished and neither do they say that we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day in it's place.

continued...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You seem to be on the same page as that we understand Luke 24:44 and the such. And we have been told "why" they needed the laws in Galatians 3:19, that it was to be in effect until the "seed should come" Genesis 3:15; Genesis 12:1-3; Galatians 3:16 (Jesus). If we look here, Galatians 3:24-25, the sabbath (saturday) is not binding upon us anymore. See also Ephesians 2:13-15.

It is a very interesting chapter Galatians 3. Did you know that there were two main sets of laws that made up the OLD COVENANT? This included God's LAW (10 Commandments) which were spoken and written by God to his people (Exodus 20:1-17) and the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT that provided all the ceremonial laws for sin offerings and the sanctuary service and the Levitical priesthood.

EXODUS 34 [28] And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the COVENANT, the ten commandments.

EXODUS 24 [7] And he took the BOOK OF THE COVENANT, and read in the hearing of the people: and they said, All that the LORD has said will we do, and be obedient.

Together these made up the OLD COVENANT and both had a different purpose in God's plan of salvation.

1. GOD'S ETERNAL LAW (10 Commandments) spoken and written by GOD himself to his people on two tables of stone. (Exodus 20:1-17; 32:16; 32:28) God's LAW was not made by Moses it was made by God alone on two tables of stone and nothing was to be added to it (Deuteronomy 4:1-2). God commanded Moses to keep the Tables of Stone separated from the Mosaic book of the law and both were to be housed in the ARK of the Covenant (Deuteronomy 10:5; Deuteronomy 31:24-26).

That is why God's LAW is referred to in the scriptures as God's LAW or the 10 commandments and not the 613. (Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13; Deuteronomy 10:4)

and...

2. The MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT FOR REMISSION OF SIN spoken and written by MOSES to God's people in the BOOK of the COVENANT (Deuteronomy31:9; 24-26; Exodus 24:3-4; 7; Colossians 2:14-17; Deuteronomy 29:21). This is were the other 603 laws were held many of which were SHADOWS pointing to Jesus and God's plan of salvation and fulfilled in Christ.

.................

CONCLUSION: The OLD COVENANT was made up of two sets of laws which included 1. GOD'S ETERNAL LAW (10 Commandments) and 2. The MOSAIC SHADOW laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT.

Both these sets of LAWS had very different PURPOSES under the OLD Covenant.

1. GOD'S ETERNAL LAW (10 Commandments) where to provide a KNOWLEDGE of SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS.

2. The MOSAIC SHADOW laws from the BOOK OF THE COVENANT of laws and ORDINANCES which included the CIVIL, CEREMONIAL and ECCLESIASTICAL laws were laws for the REMISSION or FORGIVENESS of sin which included the Leviticial PRIESTHOOD and ORDINACES for sin offerings for the SNACTUARY SERVICE. PRIESTHOOD, SACRIFICAL SIN OFFERINGS for FORGIVENESS OF SIN.

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GODS ETERNAL LAW (10 commandments) ARE FOREVER

The Law of God (10 commandments) which includes the 4th commandment is the work of God (Exodus 32:16) whatsoever God does is forever nothing can be added to it or taken away (Ecclesiastes 3:14).
God's Law is perfect converting the soul (Psalms 19:7).
It is the very standard of the Old and New Covenants (Exodus 20:1:17, Hebrews 8:10-12).

God's Law was spoken by God himself to His people (Exodus 20:1-22). Jesus says Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away (Matthew 25:35). Gods Law is still in force today (Psalms 111:7-8, Revelation 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1 John 3:5-8, 1 John 2:3-4 etc.). The Law of God reveals sin to us so we can see ourselves as we truly are sinners in need of a Saviour (Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4).It is the great standard of the judgement (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1 John 3:4, Acts 17:31). God's Law is our teacher revealing sin and the character of God and brings us to Christ at the foot of the cross that we might be saved by faith by Him who loves us and washed us in His own blood (Galatians 3:24; Revelation 1:5). Jesus came not to abolish the law, but to fulfil it ( Matthew 5:17-20 ). The law is the embodiment of truth that instructs ( Romans 2:18-19 ). It is "holy" and "spiritual, " making sin known to us by defining it; therefore, Paul delights in it ( Romans 7:7-14Romans 7:22). The law is good if used properly ( 1 Tim 1:8 ), and is not opposed to the promises of God ( Galatians 3:21 ). Faith does not make the law void, but the Christian establishes the law (Romans 3:31), fulfilling its requirements by walking according to the Spirit (Romans 8:4) through love (Romans 13:10).

You cannot know the power of God or the Gospel of Grace without the 10 commandments. If there is NO LAW then you do not know what SIN is (James 2:11; Romans 7:7; Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4). If you do not know what SIN is you have NO need of a Savior. If you have NO need of a Savior you have NO Salvation. If you have NO Salvation you are LOST because it is written.

God's LAW was written and made by God alone on two tables of stone and spoken by God himself to his people and nothing was to be added to it. (God's LAW; Exodus 32:16; 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13; 10:4; Exodus 20; Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7; Ps 119:172; James 2:8-12; Hebrews 8:10-12; Galatians 3:24; Deuteronomy 5:22; Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 10:4 Ecclesiastse 3:14; Exodus 25:16; Deuteronomy 10:5)

It is called God's LAW or the 10 Commandment, because he was the one alone who made it and commanded Moses to keep in separated from the book of the law in the Ark of the Covenant (Nehemiah 10:29; Deuteronomy 10:4-5; Deuteronomy 31:25-26; Deuteronomy 4:13; Exodus 34:28)

God's LAW was not made by Moses it was made by God alone on two tables of stone and nothing was to be added to it and it was to be separated from the Mosaic book of the law. That is why it is referred to in the scriptures as God's LAW or the 10 commandments (not the 613).

The Mosaic law was made and written and spoken by Moses as directed by God in the book of the covenant. (Mosaic Book of the law; Deuteronomy31:9; Exodus 24:3-4; Deuteronomy 31:24-27; Colossians 2:14-17).

God not only commanded Moses to keep the 10 Commandments separated from the Mosaic book of the law in the Ark of the Covenant (Deuteronomy 10:5; 31:25-26 nothing was to be added to it (Deuteronomy 4:1-2; Deuteronomy 5:22)

God makes a distinction between the 10 Commandments and the book of the law of Moses….

2 Kings 21
8, Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them.

Together God's ETERNAL LAW and the SHADOW laws of the MOSAIC BOOK OF THE COVENANT made up the OLD COVENANT (Torah)

................

Now "till the seed should come" what does this mean in relation to the OLD COVENANT? It means two things based on the purpose of the laws under the OLD COVENANT...

1. The MOSAIC laws for remission of sin (animal sacrifices and sin offerings; shadow laws) are now abolished and fulfilled in Christ our perfect sacrifice.

2. God's law shows us that we are all sinners in need of a Savior and leads us to Christ that we might be justified by faith (Galatians 2:24) v25 we are no longer under the schoolmaster of both the Animal sacrifices and being taught that we are all sinners in need of a Savior.

Can you see that these scriptures are NOT saying that God's Law (10 Commandments) is abolished? They are saying that when we come to Jesus and have faith in his sacrifice for our sins we are no longer under the condemnation of the law because we have been forgiven for our sins.

ROMANS 3:19-20 [19], Now we know that whatsoever things the law says, it says to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

If you look at Ephesians 2:15 it is also the same story here. Notice it is the laws contained in "ORDINANCES" that the scriptures are referring to?

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continued...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Jesus's sacrifice on the cross abolished the first covenant (old law Exodus 20:8) (See also Jeremiah 31:31-34)

Actually no. The purpose of the COVENANT changed. God's LAW (10 Commandments) role is still the same. It's role is to give is a KNOLEDGE of what SIN is (Romans 3:20; James 2:8-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4) however under the NEW COVENANT promise it is to be written on the heart to LOVE and LOVE is the fulfilling of God's LAW in those who BELIEVE God's WORD and walk by faith in his Spirit (Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 13:8-10; Romans 8:1-4).

He abolished it "in the flesh" - His death on the cross Colossians 2:14-17

Colossians 2 is in relation to the shadow laws from the Mosaic book of the covenant fulfilled in Christ as our great sin offering. It is not talking about the 10 commandments.

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The new law aka new covenant came into effect in Acts 2, when Christ's church was established (see Acts 2:36-47). From that point on, people are meeting on the first day of the week, Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:1-2, for example. Another reason to, is like I previously said, Christ rose on the first day of the week, Mark 16:1-6; Luke 24:1; John 20:1. The day the church began was on the first day (Pentecost) see example Leviticus 23:9-16. This is why Sabbath (saturday) is removed and no longer binding.

Now look at all the scriptures you have provided above and in these last three posts. Which one says that God's 4th Commandments has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day?

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SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)
Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

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God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You should follow the words of Jesus rather than Moses. Those are the words you will be judged by, not Moses'.

Now your making things up. Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4)

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16)

Jesus is EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Do you have any scripture to share?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Bible scholars believe that Exodus 20 was written at least a century after Exodus 34 and the Deuteronomy version is several centuries after that. Why three versions? And why is the original totally ignored?

Who do we follow, bible scholars or the Word of God? It was the fisherman in Jesus day that God choose to share his WORD. It was the bible scholars in Jesus day that crucified Jesus.

Exodus 20 is the first references of when God himself spoke the 10 commandments to his people (Exodus 20:1-17). When it was written is not relevant as it is the order of events that is important here.

You do not need to be a bible scholar to know God's WORD. It is a gift of God through his Spirit to those who believe (John 14:26; 16:13; 7:17; 8:31-32; Hebrews 8:11).

Hope this helps.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Then you must think God is bipolar if he gave commandments to his people, and then comes in the flesh thousands of years later and says “okay guys those commandments are old. No need to do them anymore” But thank God we have the Old and New Testament to know that’s not the case

I think it is becuase many are taught not to study God's Word for themselves and are taught only what their church teaches. At the same time however I believe God has his people in every Church and they will hear his voice and come out to follow his Word in Spirit and in truth. Thanks for sharing.

 

[συνείδησις]

In the real world, they are still the words of God.

It is like all of scripture - profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. The law is good if it is used lawfully knowing that the law was made for the ungodly.

But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a faith without hypocrisy, from which some have deviated, and have turned away into fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the law, although they do not understand either the things which they are saying or the things concerning which they are speaking confidently.

But we know that the law is good, if anyone makes use of it lawfully knowing that the law is not given for a righteous person but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and totally worldly, for the one who kills his father and the one who kills his mother, for murderers, sexually immoral people, homosexuals, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is opposed to sound teaching, 1 Timothy 1:5-10​

 

[συνείδησις]

Now your making things up. Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4)

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16)

Jesus is EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Do you have any scripture to share?

Can't live on yesterday's manna (Exodus 16:20). Moses is old manna. Jesus is the bread of life that is fresh every day coming down from heaven and giving life to the world (John 6:23), not yesterday's ministration of death through Moses.

GOD told Israel at Sinai to listen to Moses. In the fullness of time that he foretold through his prophets, GOD said to listen to Jesus, not Moses (Matthew 17:5, Deuteronomy 18:18-19, John 12:48-49)

 

[JackRT]

Who do we follow, bible scholars or the Word of God? It was the fisherman in Jesus day that God choose to share his WORD. The bible scholars in Jesus that crucified Jesus. Exodus 20 is the first references of when God himself spoke the 10 commandments to his people (Exodus 20:1-17). When it was written is not relevant as it is the order of events.

You do not need to be a bible scholar to know God's WORD. It is a gift of God through his Spirit to those who believe (John 14:26; 16:13; 7:17; 8:31-32; Hebrews 8:11).

Hope this helps.

So Exodus 34 is fluff? And Deuteronomy 5 is redundant? Biblical scholarship attempts to explain these sorts of problems.It has certainly been helpful to this Christian.

 

[Ken Rank]

It began to be redacted at that time. It took about 500 years to complete, I believe.

No, they didn't even begin to write the Talmud until the 400's. Rabbinic Judaism AS WE KNOW IT, did not begin in earnest until after Rabbi Akiva which puts us around 135AD. To say that the Acts 15 letter offers gentiles the Noachide laws in anachronistic (against the timeline) and is therefore simply not true. You keep arguing, but you are arguing against established and recorded history just for the sake of being right. That is one of the reasons we have so much division in the body of Christ.

 

[Ken Rank]

Those 4 laws were an incipient form of the now 7 Noahide laws.

The decision that you say was binding 50 years before the council wasn't binding at synagogues throughout the world because believing gentiles weren't circumcised and observing the law of Moses, yet they were attending synagogues. The fact that followers of Shammai came and tried to impose the more restrictive conditions on them shows that the controversy was still occurring. And it raged for centuries afterwards.

So I really don't understand what it is you are trying to say. The only thing I see that we differ on is whether the controversy was settled, or not.

No... you ARE making stuff up to make yourself look good in a debate. With this becoming circular, you can just carry on with others. I don't mind disagreement, but when there isn't even an attempt to factor in established and recorded history... then this isn't about truth for you, it's about being correct.

 

[Ken Rank]

I have to agree with Ken. When I stopped reading the Scriptures from a Western, linear and Greek perspective, I saw how man easily changed the Word of God. If we read from a Hebrew and circular perspective as Jesus did, it is very hard not to hear the Shema in both the Old and the New. Opps, from a Hebrew perspective, there is no Old and New. The Law and Prophets work seamlessly together.

Shema, literally hear and do or hear and act or hear and obey. This should sound familiar to the modern Christian world but it doesn't because we have allowed the word "faith" to evolve into the meaning of the word "belief." What I mean is... when Paul write that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, and James writes that faith without works is dead... then we have the shema when we put those two verses together. "Faith comes by hearing God and doing whatever it was we heard Him declare." Hear and act on what we hear... that is faith and that is shema. And when we read the great faith chapter (Heb. 11) what do we see? We see each and every example of "faith" being somebody HEARING God and then acting on what they heard.

So what has changed? Nothing... unless our paradigm continues to create space between Christians and anything Hebrew. Which to me is mind blowing seeing Yeshua and most of the first generation of "Christians" were Jewish. It matters... it affects context in ways most Christians just don't yet see.

 

[Ken Rank]

I can't say about the people here, but I do feel sure that many get on Christian boards not to be supportive of the Scriptures, but to attack them in subtle, and not so subtle, ways. That is why I do not have the patience you have in debating. I'm glad you have it, though.

When presenting scientific facts to evolution believers. i have seen the same denial of obvious truths (which, again, I was guilty of myself in the past about the Sabbath), the same weakness in research, the same evasion when asked simple questions, and the same sometimes deliberate twist and spin. The difference is that the evolution believers are generally not distorting the Scriptures, which is far more serious and saddening than distorting scientific data.

I am not always patient... I try, but we are human. What helps though is knowing that what we are seeing today in the form of non-Jewish believers in messiah clinging to him AND returning to the teachings and practices he would have taught and lived, is something God is doing over a generation. And that the guy who stands in my face today telling me how wrong I am, might very well be helping our congregation build a sukkah in the fall. And don't laugh, Lorica, that actually happened.

 

[Ken Rank]

I suppose that this would be the root at which needs to be addressed.

The OT made MANY predictions/prophecies that this would happen.

So I agree God doesn't change, God in fact placed it in the OT as something that would happen when Christ would come.

So, there is only a lens for people that wish to change things up according to their own desires. I read it for what it is and what is says straight up.

As far as how to study, do you think that God would only give the bible to people that understand Greek?

Is the bible only for the rich and educated?

I am not saying that I don't study the Greek words (because people like to twist scripture it makes it easier to refute them with the original Greek), however one does not need the Greek words to know what the scriptures say. God has made means of people out there in the world that can translate for people that do not have the means.

Did you also know that the bible is written in the 6-12 grade reading level pending on the version (kjv,asv,esv,etc)?

It's really not that hard to understand, people make it hard with their own desires/wishes.

What I believe (and I will keep this short because it is not the topic of the thread) is that we can learn about God, discern much of His will, and walk a life pleasing in His sight by reading an NIV or a KJV. But, I also believe we leave food on the table that He would prefer we eat when we ONLY read in the language the original languages have been translated into. So, if we are to "study to show ourselves approved," then that study should include some things that fill some gaps, for example...

Historical analysis - we live in the 21st century, cultures, years, and a ton of paradigm affecting history removed from when the books of the bible were written. They didn't write from OUR perspective, they wrote from theirs. Studying first century Judean culture will reveal context we lack as well as idiomatic phrases used by the writers that we don't recognize as idiomatic and thus miss the context. In the case of Paul, his use of the 7 Rules of Hillel is extent in some of his letters and these rules were, "designed to effect context." Since we don't even know they exist because we don't teach them today in the church, then when Paul uses one of them (which he does over 30 TIMES) we can't get the full context.

Linguistics - We are not dealing with Paul writing in the King's English... He wrote in Hebrew and it was translated or he wrote in Greek (or both perhaps?) and regardless of the language, it wasn't English. Thus a basic understanding of the nuances of the languages involved will help gain better definitions. For example... we are called adopted sons of God. Be honest, when you hear that do you basically think, "spiritual orphans that a loving heavenly Father took in?" While that preaches well and there may be an essence of truth in it... an adopted son to somebody in THAT DAY and in THAT part of the world.... was somebody brought into the family to do the WORK of that family. A father would adopt his OWN SON, a grandfather his OWN grandson... into the family business. As an adopted son of God we have been brought in to the family work... reaching the nations with God's word. That is just one of many examples as you why we simply cannot define words according to our current understanding and studying the nuances of language coupled with an understanding of how words evolve over time... is paramount to being able to "study to show ourselves approved."

I will stop there... there are 4 or 5 other disciplines I can mention but I think you get the point.

Blessings.
Ken