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If Jesus doesn't, how can anyone? And why would He introduce the subject of the keys & mid-sentence suddenly start talking about binding & loosing? i think what I am asserting is a much more plauseable supposition.You can suppose these things, but Jesus does not clearly define binding and loosing as powers of the keys. The grammar of the passage does not necessitate such a notion.
Not equivalent of, but inclusive with, otherwise why should we believe we need to be sinless?Why should we believe that being free from sin is equivalent to entering the kingdom of heaven?
That's okay, believers still disagree. Roman Catholicism is not one true interpretation, it's an arbitration of many believers disagreeing over what Christianity is and means.I understand, the problem comes when believers disagree over the meaning of scripture, itself.
Roman Catholic teachings are expounded quite plainly in the Catechism. When enough people have disagreed seriously enough measures are taken to resolve the matter.That's okay, believers still disagree. Roman Catholicism is not one true interpretation, it's an arbitration of many believers disagreeing over what Christianity is and means.
Who resolves what issues? Where does one go in the Christian world to resolve them?Nothing's changed but the strategy of resolution when the conflict becomes persistent: which strategy is going back to what God's Scripture says, not what the elder at Rome says.
God does not intend evil-He permits it, whether that evil exists within the CC or in other Churches or within ourselves. But His light entered the world and the one thing He guaranteed is that it would not be put out, that the Church He established would endure, in spite of human frailties and sin, to proclaim His message.Ultimately the numerous schisms as well as the Protestant schisms shows that this church is not able to control nor resolve things this way. God didn't intend it to work out this way within His church -- else it would have.
You MUST use logic as well.If the Word of God says "the sky is blue", then the sky is blue, regardless of how many times it is found in the Word of God. The Word of God records Jesus promising the keys of the kingdom of heaven to Peter.
By splitting up conscientious objections.Roman Catholic teachings are expounded quite plainly in the Catechism. When enough people have disagreed seriously enough measures are taken to resolve the matter.
God leaves the conscience of people free of human authority.Who resolves what issues? Where does one go in the Christian world to resolve them?
Yes, but those frailties and sin are present in the authorities in the institutional church, and often God's message has been obscured by those very appointed authorities. Churches emerging generations after their founding by Apostles don't have any lock-hold on God's message. The Old Testament cites numerous leaders of Israel -- where God's visibly present at #1 Temple Street -- who departed God's truth.God does not intend evil-He permits it, whether that evil exists within the CC or in other Churches or within ourselves. But His light entered the world and the one thing He guaranteed is that it would not be put out, that the Church He established would endure, in spite of human frailties and sin, to proclaim His message.
God leaves the conscience free of all authority-if that's what we want-and that's often what people want. It's easy to pay lip service to God.God leaves the conscience of people free of human authority.
Frailties are guaranteed by a doctrine called Original Sin. But they're also virtually guaranteed to give people excuse to assert their own moral superiority and go their own way, at least until they begin to recognize more of their own frailties. When we join a Church we join with a group of admitted sinners, not a bunch of saints-not yet anyway.Yes, but those frailties and sin are present in the authorities in the institutional church, and often God's message has been obscured by those very appointed authorities. Churches emerging generations after their founding by Apostles don't have any lock-hold on God's message. The Old Testament cites numerous leaders of Israel -- where God's visibly present at #1 Temple Street -- who departed God's truth.
That's specualtion-God preserves His message in spite of people-and I don't see it preserved when SS has produced everything from Lutheranism to Anabaptism to SDAs to JWs.People are sinful and don't pick right. God preserves His message in the assembly of people who rely on Him -- that's His Church -- not in the descendants of people who have relied on Him.
Last I checked Christianity held to a judgment of people by God. God's an authority also -- last I checked.God leaves the conscience free of all authority-if that's what we want-and that's often what people want. It's easy to pay lip service to God.
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Ep 1:1Frailties are guaranteed by a doctrine called Original Sin. But they're also virtually guaranteed to give people excuse to assert their own moral superiority and go their own way, at least until they begin to recognize more of their own frailties. When we join a Church we join with a group of admitted sinners, not a bunch of saints-not yet anyway.
I don't see it preserved when AS has produced everything from Roman Catholicism to Ethiopian Orthodox to Coptic to Eastern Orthodox to Russian Orthodox to Anglican.That's specualtion-God preserves His message in spite of people-and I don't see it preserved when SS has produced everything from Lutheranism to Anabaptism to SDAs to JWs.
Could you please share the passage(s)?
Thanks.
Let me get this straight, you think that we should let "the leaders"It's in the letter to the Galatians.
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Those who practice Sola Scriptura say that the only rule we have to answer to is Scripture, but how can this be when Paul exhort us to obey the leaders that have the rule over us? (Heb 13:17)
No problem.I believe that you do not submit to the leaders that God appointed in His Church.
Paul wrote that God appointed government within the Church (1 Cor. 12:28.)
I think this is a good point worth repeating, maybe someone will be blessed by it!It's right there in Luke. I'm not saying don't submit to your leaders, I'm saying be more careful who you choose to follow.
GREAT question too. Didja get an answer on this?Who is appointed as your apostle? How many apostles are currently serving the RCC?
This is a false representation, surprised to see it from you sinceWhy must God's Word say something more than once before we can accept it?
God's teachings are the same, expounded quite plainly, more plainly than the catechism.Roman Catholic teachings are expounded quite plainly in the Catechism. When enough people have disagreed seriously enough measures are taken to resolve the matter.
[/QUOTE]God does not intend evil-He permits it, whether that evil exists within the CC or in other Churches or within ourselves. But His light entered the world and the one thing He guaranteed is that it would not be put out, that the Church He established would endure, in spite of human frailties and sin, to proclaim His message.
Gods' an authority whose authority we may or may not allow to fully reign within regardless of whether or not we call ourselves Christian-because He gave us that freedom since the beginning of human history and our rebellious tendencies don't change overnight. Whether the understanding of His will comes by our own interpretation of scripture or that of a pastor or a creed or the writings of this author or that or from denominational traditions and teachings that we've come to learn from and agree with-and its usually a combination of these-we ultimately decide for ourselves, for better or worse, just what that will is and in which ways it will affect our lives.Last I checked Christianity held to a judgment of people by God. God's an authority also -- last I checked.
Yes, I know, and I intended "saints" to mean strictly non-sinners-another common usage.Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: Ep 1:1
Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus,To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers and deacons: Pp 1:1
To the saints and faithful brothers in Christ at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father. Col 1:1
I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. Jude :3
To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 1:7
To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours: 1 Cor 1:2
Now concerning the collection for the saints: as I directed the churches of Galatia, so you also are to do. 1 Cor 16:1
With all the schism, the agreement is much more profound than any of the squabbles.I don't see it preserved when AS has produced everything from Roman Catholicism to Ethiopian Orthodox to Coptic to Eastern Orthodox to Russian Orthodox to Anglican.
You may or may not hear sermons on the gospel preached correctly in any Church-I heard a lot of bogus stuff from my Pentecostal pastors-but the foundation for it has to be sound first of all.I really don't see it preserved when I can attend a Catholic church and do not hear the Gospel. When it's there I praise the church. When it's not I pass on in silence.
This last part wasn't clear to me. Dogma's only good or bad depending on it's alignment with the truth. The Church simply states that God established a Church for His purposes of spreading His kingdom. The idea of some universal Church that resides in the hearts of believers is not without merit, and, in fact, the CC recognizes those who profess similar faith in Jesus to be "brethren", whereas many non-Catholic Christians don't accept the CC at all. But the idea that God would want the kind of separation we have now, that He would want the Church to exist as a strictly "spiritual" entity and not a visibly locatable one with a united body of beliefs no longer appeals or makes sense to me.God preserves His message in spite of the Elder at Rome just as much as the infant child. Your own ... tradition ... claims that His message is preserved in its form through an "unbroken line" to the Apostles. So ultimately we can discard the idea of Catholic dogma being agreeable to your reason. It's not. God preserves His message based on how He has said He preserves it. Not how dogmatic conclusions may try to influence those conclusions.
Yes, nice verse-a lot of people quote it."For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them. Mt 18:20
Couldn't disagree more. Like I said before, the bible was never written to serve as a catechism or theological handbook. The gospel was preached before one word of the NT was written. If the meaning is so clear, we wouldn't have any serious disagreements or dissension.
God's teachings are the same, expounded quite plainly, more plainly than the catechism.
Couldn't agree more.We should consider spending more time doing that part then lol
God promised that even though we may see affliction, our teachers will not be hidden from our sight. (Isaiah 30:19-21)Let me get this straight, you think that we should let "the leaders"
tell us what Scripture means too?
And that if we don't agree then we are seditious and heretical?
And so won't inherit the kingdom of God...
I know God won't leave me.No problem.
You may believe many things that are trippin you up right now,
God is able, he wont leave you.
It is possible that I misunderstood what he was trying to convey. I would hope that my brothers and sisters in Christ are not quick to judge me or accuse me of malicious intent. I seek truth and honesty, I seek to crucify my passions with my flesh working by the grace of God, to be free of anger and malice, and to assess all things in truth.This is a false representation, surprised to see it from you since
you used to say the same thing. Hope you're being straight with us.
I do know what you mean. Logic is truth. Logic... Logos... see the similarity? Etymology is cool stuff!You MUST use logic as well.
The Word of God says that God is a branch, a door etc.
We can't have double standards.
CAll no man father... etc.
kwim?
You may think so, but the grammar of the passage does not logically necessitate such an interpretation, therefore I am not required to believe it.If Jesus doesn't, how can anyone? And why would He introduce the subject of the keys & mid-sentence suddenly start talking about binding & loosing? i think what I am asserting is a much more plauseable supposition.
To enter the kingdom of Heaven one must be free of all blemish, but this does not mean that one who is free of blemish has necessarily entered the kingdom of Heaven. The Saints, by the power of the Spirit, crucified every lust of the flesh yet walked the earth for the rest of their earthly course.Not equivalent of, but inclusive with, otherwise why should we believe we need to be sinless?
Do you mean "in charge of you" refers to leaders ?How do you find out who is "in charge of you?
Just curious.
Ive already mentioned how I determine for myself.
Actually, non-obedience; not refusal, but that such a thing never was.As in "dis"obedience?
In response to the post that mentioned this within this thread.How does this pertain to SS?
*scratching head
Paul wrote that those who promote sedition and heresy will not inherit the kingdom of God. Those who recognize no authority in the Church but the Scriptures are in error. How can you acknowledge that God appointed leaders and teachers within His Church yet oppose them?
If the Catholic Church has authority from God, then you are engaging in sedition against established authority. If any other church has authority, then those who do not assent to it are guilty of engaging in sedition.Most of us here have no difficulty with recognizing authority in the church. We just have difficulty acknowledging that your Church is the only Church with authority.
Most of us here have no difficulty with recognizing authority in the church. We just have difficulty acknowledging that your Church is the only Church with authority.
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