The Rule of Scripture ("Sola Scriptura" as Luther and Calvin called it)

sunlover1 said:

We really don't know then do we?
Or does it say peter "alone"?
No, it doesn't.

So that leaves us with what? Common sense.

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So if I specifically looked at you with a bunch of your brethren around and gave you (singular) the keys, common sense tells you that I also gave it to them? I'm somehow just not seeing that.

sunlover1 said:

Interesting that those who oppose SS want to use Scripture to prove a thing
(See title of thread)

Just an observation.

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We have to use the only tool that you guys will reeeeally pay attention to.

Originally Posted by Kepha

Of course not. Jesus only used the singular you in the context of both giving the Keys and Binding on earth and Heaven and it's extremely naive to assume it was for everybody else when the other Apostles were right there with him. Wishful thinking would be to believe otherwise. Something very special was going on there without a doubt that involved Peter only.

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Kepha said:

So if I specifically looked at you with a bunch of your brethren around and gave you (singular) the keys, common sense tells you that I also gave it to them? I'm somehow just not seeing that.

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If I had known this topic would keep coming up, I would have bumped this thread up

http://www.christianforums.com/t7465159/
Peter and the Keys, Catholicism and the Pope (6)

sunlover1 said:

Interesting that those who oppose SS want to use Scripture to prove a thing
(See title of thread)

Just an observation.

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Well, in reality, they have nothing else.

They are SS when it suits their purpose, other than that, they condemn it to hell when they don't like when it disagrees with them.

Kepha said:

So if I specifically looked at you with a bunch of your brethren around and gave you (singular) the keys, common sense tells you that I also gave it to them? I'm somehow just not seeing that.

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But we don't KNOW that He was "looking at" Peter.
Let's say I am wrong, and He was ONLY Giving Pete the keys,
(I have no idea tbh, could be that it was Peter and not the rest,
Don't really care much either way either... )
... what exactly were these keys of the kingdom of Heaven for?

sunlover1 said:

But we don't KNOW that He was "looking at" Peter.
Let's say I am wrong, and He was ONLY Giving Pete the keys,
(I have no idea tbh, could be that it was Peter and not the rest,
Don't really care much either way either... )
... what exactly were these keys of the kingdom of Heaven for?

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umm...To lead us out of the kingdom of the death and hades and into the Kingdom of everlasting Life

Reve 1:18 and the living One! And I became dead and behold! I am living into the ages of the ages.
And I am having the Keys of the Hades and of the Death

ivebeenshown said:

Why are you asking this 'basic stuff' instead of showing where Jesus addresses anyone but Peter to give the keys? Go ahead, show us where that happens. You've got the Scriptures at your fingertips.

If it's so basic, show me where it happens.

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I'm sad to let you leave reality for your own little pipe dream. Rome always wanted to be special, and it certainly didn't start with Christianity. This unholy bent fractured the Church, and made Rome into the sole violent Church, which she persisted in being for the exact amount of time prophesied in Revelation.

Your newfound indoctrination refuses to let you think for yourself, for fear you might discover any of this. Good thing they got you while you're still young, eh?

Kepha said:

So if I specifically looked at you with a bunch of your brethren around and gave you (singular) the keys, common sense tells you that I also gave it to them? I'm somehow just not seeing that.

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Except Jesus didn't give any physical, tangible keys to anyone, as you suggest. It is a Spiritual Truth He spoke of. So your pat little analogy here doesn't really hold water; not a single drop.

sunlover1 said:

But we don't KNOW that He was "looking at" Peter.
Let's say I am wrong, and He was ONLY Giving Pete the keys,
(I have no idea tbh, could be that it was Peter and not the rest,
Don't really care much either way either... )
... what exactly were these keys of the kingdom of Heaven for?

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Oh that's easy, just use your common sense!

"Binding and loosing" was a Rabbinical term, referring to interpreting Scripture. So clearly what Jesus did while sur-naming Simon Peter, was to establish the Magisterium, papal infallibility, ex-Cathedra, and all the associated doctrines.

How can you not see it?

razeontherock said:

Except Jesus didn't give any physical, tangible keys to anyone, as you suggest. It is a Spiritual Truth He spoke of. So your pat little analogy here doesn't really hold water; not a single drop.

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I also would like to see where this big "handing of the keys" event happened in scripture. There has to be something I missed, you know, heaven opening, angels flocking around Peter and magical keys floating down out of heaven to him,....?!?!?

Where is it at, I haven't read anything on it yet?!?

razeontherock said:

Except Jesus didn't give any physical, tangible keys to anyone, as you suggest. It is a Spiritual Truth He spoke of. So your pat little analogy here doesn't really hold water; not a single drop.

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It seems like Peter's bro Paul mentioned something about that

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

Young) 1 Corinthians 2:13 which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual things comparing,

Young) 1 Corinthians 12:1 And concerning the spiritual things, brethren, I do not wish you to be ignorant;

Spirits in the Material World - The Police - YouTube

razeontherock said:

Oh that's easy, just use your common sense!

"Binding and loosing" was a Rabbinical term, referring to interpreting Scripture. So clearly what Jesus did while sur-naming Simon Peter, was to establish the Magisterium, papal infallibility, ex-Cathedra, and all the associated doctrines.

How can you not see it?

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An interesting thread on that was started on the OBOB board
Not sure if this topic is on the GT board tho

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...istianforums.com+ex+cathedra+christian+forums

http://www.christianforums.com/t7581511/
Ex-Cathedra?

mrmccormo said:

In a discussion with a Catholic friend of mine (full disclosure: I am not Catholic), he mentioned the term Ex-Cathedra. I had asked him what the role of the Pope was and asked why the Pope had infallible authority over canon, the interpretation of scriptures, etc.

In reply, he said that the "infallible" part only applies to the Pope when he is sitting Ex-Cathedra, which has only happened a few times in history and only concerns a few select doctrines.

I'd be grateful for the help of any Catholics who are able and willing to shed light on this concept. THANKS!

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LittleLambofJesus said:

umm...To lead us out of the kingdom of the death and hades and into the Kingdom of everlasting Life

Reve 1:18 and the living One! And I became dead and behold! I am living into the ages of the ages.
And I am having the Keys of the Hades and of the Death

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I thought I made a thread addressing this very question but some threads
go bye bye. Or maybe not, you'd be the authority on that LOL
I dub you SEO LLOJ

razeontherock said:

How can you not see it?

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I have this thing about using common sense.
We do, after all, have the mind of Christ.
Seriously, He asks many many times "what do YOU think"

See:
Luke 2:49: He said to them, “Why were you searching for me? Did you not know that I must *be in my Father’s house?” *Or, be about my Father’s interests?
Luke 5:33-34: When Jesus perceived their questionings, he answered them, “Why do you raise such questions in your hearts? Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Stand up and walk’?“
Luke 5:34: Jesus said to them, ”You cannot make wedding guests fast while the bridegroom is with them, can you?“
Luke 6:3-4: Jesus answered, ”Have you not read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God and took and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and gave some to his companions?“
Luke 6:9: Then Jesus said to them, ”I ask you, is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the sabbath, to save life or to destroy it?“
Luke 6:32: If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
Luke 6:33: If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
Luke 6:34: If you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
Luke 6:39: He also told them a parable: ”Can a blind person guide a blind person? Will not both fall into a pit?
Luke 6:41: Why do you see the speck in your neighbor’s eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye?
Luke 6:42: Or how can you say to your neighbor, ‘Friend, let me take out the speck in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor’s eye.
Luke 6:46: Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I tell you?
Luke 7:24: When John’s messengers had gone, Jesus began to speak to the crowds about John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to look at? A reed shaken by the wind?
Luke 7:25: What then did you go out to see? Someone dressed in soft robes? Look, those who put on fine clothing and live in luxury are in royal palaces.
Luke 7:26: What then did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet.
Luke 7:31: To what shall I compare the people of this generation, and what are they like?
Luke 7:44: Then turning toward the woman, he said to Simon, ”Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave me no water for my feet, but she has bathed my feet with her tears and dried them with her hair.“
Luke 8:25: He said to them, ”Where is your faith?“ They were afraid and amazed, and said to one another, ”Who then is this, that he commands even the winds and the water, and they obey him?“
Luke 9:18: Once when Jesus was praying alone, with only the disciples near him, he asked them, ”Who do the crowds say that I am?“
Luke 9:20: He said to them, ”But who do you say that I am?“ Peter answered, ”The Messiah of God.“
Luke 9:25: What does it profit them if they gain the whole world, but lose or forfeit themselves?
Luke 9:41: Jesus answered, ”You faithless and perverse generation, how much longer must I be with you and bear with you? Bring your son here.“
Luke 10:15: And you, Ca·per´na·um, will you be exalted to heaven? No you will be brought down to Hades.
Luke 10:26: He said to him, ”What is written in the law? What do you read there?
Luke 10:36: Which of these three, do you think, was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of the robbers?
Luke 11:11: Is there anyone among you who, if your child asks for a fish, will give a snake instead of a fish?
Luke 11:12: Or if the child asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?
Luke 11:13: If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!
Luke 11:18: If Satan is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? —for you say that I cast out the demons by Bē·el´ze·bul.
Luke 11:19: Now if I cast out the demons by Bē·el´ze·bul, by whom do your exorcists cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges.
Luke 11:40: You fools! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?
Luke 12:6: Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten in God’s sight.
Luke 12:14: But he said to him, “Friend, who set me to be a judge or arbitrator over you?”
Luke 12:25: And can any of you by worrying add a single hour to your span of life?
Luke 12:26: If then you are not able to do so small a thing as that, why do you worry about the rest?
Luke 12:42: And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and prudent manager whom his master will put in charge of his slaves, to give them their allowance of food at the proper time?”
Luke 12:56: You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of earth and sky, but why do you not know how to interpret the present time?
Luke 12:27: And why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?
Luke 13:2: He asked them, “Do you think that because these Galileans suffered in this way they were worse sinners than all other Galileans?”
Luke 13:4: Or those eighteen who were killed when the tower of Si·lō´am fell on them—do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others living in Jerusalem?
Luke 13:15: but the Lord answered him and said, “You hypocrites! Does not each of you on the sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the manger, and lead it away to give it water?
Luke 13:16: And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham whom Satan bound for eighteen long years, be set free from this bondage on the sabbath day?
Luke 13:18: He said therefore, ”What is the kingdom of God like? And to what should I compare it?
Luke 13:20: And again he said, “To what should I compare the kingdom of God?
Luke 14:3: And Jesus asked the lawyers and Pha´ri·sees, ”Is it lawful to cure people on the sabbath, or not?
Luke 14:5: Then he said to them, “If one of you has a child or an ox that has fallen into a well, will you not immediately pull it out on a sabbath day?”
Luke 14:28: For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not first sit down and estimate the cost, to see whether he has enough to complete it?
Luke 14:31: Or what king, going out to wage war against another king, will not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to oppose the one who comes against him with twenty thousand?
Luke 14:34: Salt is good; but if salt has lost its taste, how can its saltiness be restored?
Luke 16:11: If then you have not been faithful with the dishonest wealth, who will entrust to you the true riches?
Luke 16:12: And if you have not been faithful with what belongs to another, who will give you what is your own?
Luke 17:7: Who among you would say to your slave who has just come in from plowing or tending sheep in the field, ‘Come here at once and take your place at the table’?
Luke 17:8: Would you not rather say to him, ‘Prepare supper for me, put on your apron and serve me while I eat and drink; later you amy eat and drink’?
Luke 17:9: Do you thank the slave for doing what was commanded?
Luke 17:17: Then Jesus asked, “Were not ten made clean? But the other nine, where are they?
Luke 17:18: Was none of them found to return and give praise to God except this foreigner?”
Luke 18:7: And will not God grand justice to his chosen ones who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long in helping them?
Luke 18:8: I tell you, he will quickly grant justice to them. And yet, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?“
Luke 18:41: ”What do you want me to do for you?“ He said, ”Lord, let me see again.“
Luke 20:4: Did the baptism of John come from heaven, or was it of human origin?
Luke 20:17: But he looked at them and said, ”What then does this text mean: ‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone’?
Luke 20:24: “Show me a denarius. Whose head and whose title does it bear?” They said, “The emperor’s.”
Luke 20:41: Then he said to them, “How can they say that the Messiah is David’s son?
Luke 20:44: David thus calls him Lord; so how can he be his son?”
Luke 22:27: For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.
Luke 22:35: He said to them, “When I sent you out without a purse, bag, or sandals, did you lack anything?” They said, “No, not a thing.”
Luke 22:48: But Jesus said to him, “Judas, is it with a kiss that you are betraying the Son of Man?”
Luke 22:52: Then Jesus said to the chief priests, the officers of the temple police, and the elders who had come for him, “Have you come out with swords and clubs as if I were a bandit?
Luke 24:17-19a: And he said to them, ”What are you discussing with each other while you walk along?“ They stood still, looking sad. Then one of them, whose name was Clē´o·pas, answered him, ”Are you the only stranger in Jerusalem who does not know the things that have taken place there in these days?“ He asked them, ”What things?“
Luke 24:26: Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer these things and then enter into his glory?
Luke 24:38: He said to them, ”Why are you frightened, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?“
Luke 24:41: While in their joy they were disbelieving and wondering, he said to them, ”Have you anything here to eat?“

ARBITER01 said:

I also would like to see where this big "handing of the keys" event happened in scripture. There has to be something I missed, you know, heaven opening, angels flocking around Peter and magical keys floating down out of heaven to him,....?!?!?

Where is it at, I haven't read anything on it yet?!?

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I think sometimes we get confused and make doctrines out of events
in the Bible. We need to meditate on Scripture, stay close to the Father
and always watch..

Was listening to this earlier and thought of you btw:
"I am reaching for the highest goal, that I might receive the prize,
pressing onward pushing every hindrance aside, out of my way,
cause I want to know You more",

In The Secret - Andy Park - YouTube

Quite the collection of questions asked by our Lord there, Sister!

And all from Luke? It is my contention that Luke reveals to us Jesus primarily as "Son of Man." This is consistent Don't know that you've read my study on the Breastplate, but it delves into the colors in the Tabernacle, and this corresponds to white. Also notice that Ezekiel's vision with 4 faces, one of those was the face of a man. (This side is where the candlestick was, giving light) All these things line up perfectly, and "agree" to the same Truth!

sunlover1 said:

Interesting that those who oppose SS want to use Scripture to prove a thing
(See title of thread)

Just an observation.

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There'd be no need except for those who depend solely on scripture and oppose the teachings of those who don't-they won't listen to anything else.

Paul wrote that those who promote sedition and heresy will not inherit the kingdom of God. Those who recognize no authority in the Church but the Scriptures are in error. How can you acknowledge that God appointed leaders and teachers within His Church yet oppose them?

sunlover1 said:

Actually, it's that "inside" check that's missing!
People need to LISTEN to God. But they've been lulled to sleep
by organizations teaching them to obey their "leaders". So they
blindly "obey".
IMO

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Yes - as before, a distortion will have a tendency to potentially affect the entire community.

What is known from Scripture, for example, is that we are called to obey those in charge of us.

So I think what is missing in this discussion is the understanding of "obedience" - that right obedience to elders etc. is commended to us, but that phenomena other than obedience occur and can be dangerous.

bbbbbbb said:

I do find it helpful to discuss Mr. Eliot with you because you are familiar with his work. Joseph Smith, like Mr. Eliot, drew upon various non-Christian sources for his writings. Unlike Mr. Eliot, he claimed that they were inspired by God and that he received them orally. The followers of Mr. Smith continue to make that assertion and disclaim anything to the contrary as being from The Great Apostasy (all of Christendom).

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I still don't follow ... the comparison of Eliot and Smith, and its relationship to the ECFs.

The RCC claims that its leader continues to receive insight and revelation from God. In doing so, they have wandered farther from orthodoxy and not closer, as I am sure you agree. For example, in 1872 the RCC proclaimed the dogma of Papal infallibility. They base this dogma upon their understanding of Tradition. Apart from using scripture as the norma norms to ascertain the accuracy of such dogmatic claims, Christians are only left with "My church rejects what your church says - because our Tradition is better than yours. nyah, nyah, nyah."

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Okay, but Smith launched a religion that is not exactly Christian and Eliot was not defending the Christian revelation per se.

So again, I don't see the purpose of the comparison.

BTW, I am unfamiliar with Mr. Rotten.

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That's okay - "never mind the bollocks".

Thekla said:

What is known from Scripture, for example, is that we are called to obey those in charge of us.

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How do you find out who is "in charge of you?
Just curious.
Ive already mentioned how I determine for myself.

So I think what is missing in this discussion is the understanding of "obedience" - that right obedience to elders etc. is commended to us, but that phenomena other than obedience occur and can be dangerous.

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As in "dis"obedience?

How does this pertain to SS?
*scratching head

fhansen said:

There'd be no need except for those who depend solely on scripture and oppose the teachings of those who don't-they won't listen to anything else.

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I am a SS and I do listen to logic as well as Scripture.
If you're referring to listening to the dogma of one of the "One True Church"es,
then no, that would not be logical.
IMO