The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"

[concretecamper]

So does that mean Jesus is literally a door?

How many followers left Him because they thought He was literally saying He is a door. The answer is ZERO.

It is clear His followers took His Words recorded on John 6 literally.

It is sad that over the past few hundred years people have skewed the meaning of John 6.

 

[LoveofTruth]

In the absence of scripture, the early church were given revelatory gifts which have since ceased.

This is not accurate, I have seen in reality and from scripture that the gifts have not ceased. if you think so, bring your scripture that says the gifts have ceased. I am aware of the few scriptures that some try to bring, but they do not say what they are saying as scripture will prove. and the testimony of many will as well.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Obviously. In your example his disciples did not ask "How can this man be made of wood?" In John 6 when his disciples questioned Him Jesus made it as clear as can be they were to eat His true flesh.

You miss what was said. Jesus said and this section of scripture is a very deep section about inner life as well and the Father teaching people inwardly in spirit even before they came to Jesus. But consider

"Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. 27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you:...“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”......Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life." ( John 6:63. 68 KJV) " ( John 6:26,27, 63, 68 KJV)

Here we see that many followed Jesus and wanted to make him a king to give them bread. They were only thinking of the physical bread that perisheth. Jesus told them not to labour for the meat that perisheth, but for the meat which endureth unto everlasting life. Jesus is the bread of life the true Light that lighteth every man. He is the loving bread and His word is life. He is the seed sown in the hearts of men and if they believer in him that seed will take root in their heart and rise with them. We are said to be planted together in the likeness of his death and risen with him. This planting in the heart is where the life comes the new birth by the word of God..

"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" ( Romans 6:5 KJV)

This planting aspect refers to the inward life. The heart of man is hard at first and when the word of God is sown in the heart it is like a fire and a hammer that breaketh the rocks in pieces. Then the seed(the word of God can take root)

“Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?”

"Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you." ( Hosea 10:12 KJV)

"For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns. 4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart," (Jeremiah 4:3 KJV)

also in this section Jesus does not just mention eating his flesh but drinking his blood.

This is a very telling part. If you say the bread if literally Jesus then what do you say the blood is? In the Jewish law and the book of Acts as well all are forbidden to drink literal blood. So consider again Jesus is not talking about them literally tearing him to pieces right there and eating his flesh and drinking his blood.

"Moreover ye shall eat no manner of blood, whether it be of fowl or of beast, in any of your dwellings. 27 Whatsoever soul it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people." ( Leviticus 7:26,27 KJV)

“That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.” (Acts 15"29 KJV)

So when Jesus speaks of drinking his blood this must not refer to literally drinking blood. Some religious forms of Christianity take the bread and the cup and believe the bread is literally Jesus and the cup is literally Jesus blood. But this is not what Jesus was refering to. We see this when Jesus spoke of the bread and cup of his blood,

"Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you." ( Luke 22:20 KJV)

Notice that the cup is the New testament and he speaks of it being shed for them. Bit at that time he had not shed his literal blood on the cross . The New testament was not in affect until the death of Christ. We read,

"...without shedding of blood is no remission.: ( Hebrews 9:22 KJV)

“Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.”" ( Hebrews 10:8 KJV)

Notice that there is no remission of sins without actual blood being shed. When Jesus died on the cross and shed his blood then it was finished. So the type or shadow of the death and blood shed was the bread and cup. The Testament was not in affect yet, consider this section clearly

"And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood." ( Hebrews 9:15-18 KJV)

sSo , Jesus spoke of the blood of the New testament, was abviously a figure of thr true refering to his actaul death and shedding his blood. Consider this also

"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (Hebrews 9"24-28 KJV)

So no man can make a bread with his hand and say Christ is now entered into that. And once did he sacrifice.

 

[LoveofTruth]

How many followers left Him because they thought He was literally saying He is a door. The answer is ZERO.

It is clear His followers took His Words recorded on John 6 literally.

It is sad that over the past few hundred years people have skewed the meaning of John 6.

Read Post #983 it is for you also

God bless

 

[LoveofTruth]

How many followers left Him because they thought He was literally saying He is a door. The answer is ZERO.

It is clear His followers took His Words recorded on John 6 literally.

It is sad that over the past few hundred years people have skewed the meaning of John 6.

Here is a spiritual clue to what Jesus is talking of

“As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.” ( John 6:57 KJV)

and consider this also

But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of. 33 Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? 34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work" ( John 4:32, 33 KJV)

"And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able." ( 1 Corinthians 3:1,2 KJV)

"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." (1 Corinthians 10:1-4 KJV)

 

[LoveofTruth]

Obviously. In your example his disciples did not ask "How can this man be made of wood?" In John 6 when his disciples questioned Him Jesus made it as clear as can be they were to eat His true flesh.

"This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. 7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep...There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. 20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him? 21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?" ( John 10:19 KJV)

 

[concretecamper]

Read Post #983 it is for you also

God bless

I did

That is why I said it was sad that the meaning of John 6 has been skewed over that past couple of hundred years.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I did

That is why I said it was sad that the meaning of John 6 has been skewed over that past couple of hundred years.

That’s the best answer you have??

Bring all your best theologians, even 450 of them of you want and let’s see how they answer the verses I gave.

Go to the highest authorities over you and see if 450 of them will come and show any error in what I have shown in John 6.

And I wait for you to give sone response scripturally as well .

 

[concretecamper]

That’s the best answer you have??

Bring all your best theologians, even 450 of them of you want and let’s see how they answer the verses I gave.

Go to the highest authorities over you and see if 450 of them will come and show any error in what I have shown in John 6.

And I wait for you to give sone response scripturally as well .

Despite all the bolding of letter, all the different colors, your posts lack truth.

If I had to decide who to believe, either Ignatius of Antioch (John the Apostle's student) or you, the master of colors and bolding of letter, I will choose Ignatius all the time.

I don't need to explain scripture, it has already been explained by the Holy Spirit.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Despite all the bolding of letter, all the different colors, your posts lack truth.

If I had to decide who to believe, either Ignatius of Antioch (John the Apostle's student) or you, the master of colors and bolding of letter, I will choose Ignatius all the time.

I don't need to explain scripture, it has already been explained by the Holy Spirit.

Again, that’s no answer.

We are not to put men above that which is written. And I would hear scripture from Paul over another who disagrees with scripture later on in history

 

[BobRyan]

It is clear His followers took His Words recorded on John 6 literally.

agreed - and then they left Him... taking Him too literally.

66 As a result of this many of His disciples left, and would no longer walk with Him

========= They were taking Him too literally

41 So then the Jews were complaining about Him because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” 42 And they were saying, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?”... 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats from this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I will give for the life of the world also is My flesh.”

literally living bread falling down literally out of heaven... or possible the John 1 "Word" where the lesson of Manna is brought into John 6's discussion about manna -- "man does not live by bread alone but by every WORD the comes from the mouth of God" Deut 8:3


52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”...58 This is the bread that came down out of heaven, not as the fathers ate and died; the one who eats this bread will live forever.”

Jesus says He is already bread - that already came down out of heaven and already is supposed to be eaten... not "some day in the future I will turn into bread and in the future you must eat my flesh".

66 As a result of this many of His disciples left, and would no longer walk with Him.

---- the real lesson of John 6

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh provides no benefit; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit, and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
66 As a result of this many of His disciples left, and would no longer walk with Him. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to leave also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.

=============================

YET ANOTHER example where His followers were taking the symbol of BREAD too literally.

Matt 16:5 And the disciples came to the other side of the sea, but they had forgotten to bring any bread. 6 And Jesus said to them, “Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 7 They began to discuss this among themselves, saying, “He said that because we did not bring any bread.” 8 But Jesus, aware of this, said, “You men of little faith, why are you discussing among yourselves the fact that you have no bread? 9 Do you not yet understand nor remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets you picked up? 10 Nor the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many large baskets you picked up? 11 How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to you about bread? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 12 Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

In both Matt 16 and John 6 - bread is used as a symbol for teaching

John 6

 

[concretecamper]

Again, that’s no answer.

We are not to put men above that which is written. And I would hear scripture from Paul over another who disagrees with scripture later on in history

Sure it is. I don't trust your interpretation. Isn't that clear enough?

 

[concretecamper]

agreed - and then they left Him... taking Him too literally.

66 As a result of this many of His disciples left, and would no longer walk with Him

========= They were taking Him too literally

41 So then the Jews were complaining about Him because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” 42 And they were saying, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?”... 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats from this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I will give for the life of the world also is My flesh.”

literally living bread falling down literally out of heaven... or possible the John 1 "Word" where the lesson of Manna is brought into John 6's discussion about manna -- "man does not live by bread alone but by every WORD the comes from the mouth of God" Deut 8:3


52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”...58 This is the bread that came down out of heaven, not as the fathers ate and died; the one who eats this bread will live forever.”

Jesus says He is already bread - that already came down out of heaven and already is supposed to be eaten... not "some day in the future I will turn into bread and in the future you must eat my flesh".

66 As a result of this many of His disciples left, and would no longer walk with Him.

---- the real lesson of John 6

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh provides no benefit; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit, and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
66 As a result of this many of His disciples left, and would no longer walk with Him. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to leave also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.

=============================

YET ANOTHER example where His followers were taking the symbol of BREAD too literally.

Matt 16:5 And the disciples came to the other side of the sea, but they had forgotten to bring any bread. 6 And Jesus said to them, “Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 7 They began to discuss this among themselves, saying, “He said that because we did not bring any bread.” 8 But Jesus, aware of this, said, “You men of little faith, why are you discussing among yourselves the fact that you have no bread? 9 Do you not yet understand nor remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets you picked up? 10 Nor the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many large baskets you picked up? 11 How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to you about bread? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 12 Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

In both Matt 16 and John 6 - bread is used as a symbol for teaching

John 6

Novel conclusion that go against close to 2,000 years of Church teaching.

When will everyone learn that underlining, red text, and bolding text does nothing to support your arguments!

 

[Valletta]

"This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. 7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep...There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. 20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him? 21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?" ( John 10:19 KJV)

Yes. But here no one there thought Jesus was saying he was a real door, with a handle and made out of wood with wooden hinges. But when Jesus spoke of eating His true Flesh, you can see the disbelief of some in John 6. Yet when questioned Jesus became more emphatic. Disciples left because they could not believe the words of Jesus about eating His flesh and drinking His blood, He was not there to fool or trick them into going.
Jesus is the Lamb of God, He linked the Holy Eucharist to the Passover where the Passover celebration was not complete until one ate the lamb.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Sure it is. I don't trust your interpretation. Isn't that clear enough?

No, you seem to have a bias against anything that would challenge your traditional view. But let scripture speak through the spirit if you have ears to hear. The spirit quickens the flesh profiteth nothing. as Jesus said,

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” ( John 6:63 KJV)

That is clear. How do you understand this verse in the context of what Jesus was saying? My interpretation is in line with what Jesus said here and can be trusted because I trust Jesus interpretation more than any mans or religious group that started way after his death or any so called "church fathers" etc.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yes. But here no one there thought Jesus was saying he was a real door, with a handle and made out of wood with wooden hinges. But when Jesus spoke of eating His true Flesh, you can see the disbelief of some in John 6. Yet when questioned Jesus became more emphatic. Disciples left because they could not believe the words of Jesus about eating His flesh and drinking His blood, He was not there to fool or trick them into going.
Jesus is the Lamb of God, He linked the Holy Eucharist to the Passover where the Passover celebration was not complete until one ate the lamb.

You do not see or hear what Jesus was saying. It is a spiritual revelation. we can eat and drink Jesus in a spiritual way as scripture shows.

In fact all the saints of all time had to eat and drink spiritual meat and drink of Christ.

1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." ( 1 Corinthians 10:1-3 KJV)

what do you think "spiritual meat and spiritual drink is?

also Jesus said a very specific thing in John 6 he said,

“And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.” ( John 6:35 KJV). So eating and drinking is connected to coming to him and believing on him.

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.” ( John 6:40 KJV).

To see the Son is by revelation of the Father in spirit.

“All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.” (Luke 10:22 KJV)

"And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
" ( Matthew 16:17 KJV)

and it was not just Peter who had this revelation

"She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world." ( John 11:27 KJV)

“And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.” ( John 6:69 KJV)

and so,

“Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.” ( 1 John 4:15 KJV)

“Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.”" ( 1 John 5:1 KJV)

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yes. But here no one there thought Jesus was saying he was a real door, with a handle and made out of wood with wooden hinges. But when Jesus spoke of eating His true Flesh, you can see the disbelief of some in John 6. Yet when questioned Jesus became more emphatic. Disciples left because they could not believe the words of Jesus about eating His flesh and drinking His blood, He was not there to fool or trick them into going.
Jesus is the Lamb of God, He linked the Holy Eucharist to the Passover where the Passover celebration was not complete until one ate the lamb.

a;so, here is another things to consider in John 6 we read,

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him."

Notice the words, "life in him" and "hath eternal life" and "dwelleth in me, and I in him"

we see these things in scripture referring to other aspects Consider this from the same writer John,

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men...That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." ( Jophn 1:1-4. 9.1- KJV).

Here we see that the Light lighteth every man that cometh into the world. We also read that in Him was life and the life was the light of men. In him was life. So when Jesus says that those who do not believe have no life in them. This would show that they hate the light in them and turn from it, the spirit of that person had not been enlightened with the light of life. This is a possibility for all men to come unto God because the true Light lighteth every man. This was possible way before Jesus came physically to earth as we see in men like Abraham who had the seed (Christ in him Galatians 3) and others.

Eternal life is in Christ and dwells in men as 1 John speaks of. This eternal life is Christ.Christ dwells in our heart by faith, not by eating a physical piece of bread. He is in fact not far from every person in them shining His light if they would come to the light.

"That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith;..." (Ephesians 3:15 KJV)

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." ( John 3:19-21 KJV).

So coming to the light inwardly is also coming to Jesus inwardly.

"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me." ( John 15:3.4 KJV).

This was spoken before Jesus had the last supper. Also when Jesus speaks of people "dwelleth in me, and I in him" in John 6:56 KJV) he is connecting this to his inward dwelling in them and they in him. This inward life is a spiritual life.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Sure it is. I don't trust your interpretation. Isn't that clear enough?

Well, do you trust Jesus interpretation of how to have eternal life? Jesus speaks of eternal life there and he is eternal life (1 John 1:2, 1 John 5:20 KJV)

and only in Him is life. There is no other way to escape the flames of hell but by having Christ dwell in our hearts by faith. No other way of having eternal life but by Him.

Yet many Catholics wear this thing called a "Scapular" , even many Popes, and it has on one side a woman on it and on the other side the words written,

"Whoever dies wearing this Scapular shall not suffer eternal fire"

This is not true and this is another gospel. No man escapes the eternal fire or has eternal life unless they have saving faith and believes in the righteousness of God saving him which is revealed in the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel (1 Cor 15:1-5).

Do any suppose they will actually escape eternal fire by simply wearing this Scapular?, that is another gospel, and why would they need anything else or any work of Christ at all if this Scapular will save them?

So the concerns are many in such groups.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Novel conclusion that go against close to 2,000 years of Church teaching.

It is not a novel conclusion. He quoted scripture which is before the novel interpretation of later men.

When will everyone learn that underlining, red text, and bolding text does nothing to support your arguments!

The colour text ( as least in my post) highlight certain words. It is for emphasis.

 

[concretecamper]

No, you seem to have a bias against anything that would challenge your traditional view

I have a bias against a self appointed experts who contradict what scripture says, what the Early Church Father taught, what the Church has consistently taught for close to 2,000 years. Don't take it personally, I just don't trust your interpretation.