The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"

[concretecamper]

Well, do you trust Jesus interpretation of how to have eternal life?

Yep, that is why I believe that water Baptism is essential for salvation, and that reception of the Eucharist is required. My beliefs are consistent with the Scriptures, the teachings of the early Church, the teaching of the Church for close to 2,000 years.

People come up with strange alternate meaning to scripture that doesn't make sense. So I will call it out.

 

[concretecamper]

The colour text ( as least in my post) highlight certain words. It is for emphasis.

It doesn't add to anything. Imagine the Bible written in that format.

 

[concretecamper]

Well, do you trust Jesus interpretation of how to have eternal life? Jesus speaks of eternal life there and he is eternal life (1 John 1:2, 1 John 5:20 KJV)

and only in Him is life. There is no other way to escape the flames of hell but by having Christ dwell in our hearts by faith. No other way of having eternal life but by Him.

Yet many Catholics wear this thing called a "Scapular" , even many Popes, and it has on one side a woman on it and on the other side the words written,

"Whoever dies wearing this Scapular shall not suffer eternal fire"

This is not true and this is another gospel. No man escapes the eternal fire or has eternal life unless they have saving faith and believes in the righteousness of God saving him which is revealed in the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel (1 Cor 15:1-5).

Do any suppose they will actually escape eternal fire by simply wearing this Scapular?, that is another gospel, and why would they need anything else or any work of Christ at all if this Scapular will save them?

So the concerns are many in such groups.

I trust Jesus and the Church (who are One)

Can you show me in official Church Teaching where it says that anyone dying wearing the scapular will not suffer eternal fire?

if you can't, you just highlighted again why your judgment cannot be trusted.

 

[LoveofTruth]

If I had to decide who to believe, either Ignatius of Antioch (John the Apostle's student) or you

I choose to believe John who quoted Jesus and I believe Jesus words over any other man . We must not put men above that which is written.

the master of colors and bolding of letter,

Call no man master, or father

I will choose Ignatius all the time.

O will choose Jesus all the time and John who wrote what Jesus said, over any others outside of scripture. If a man speaks according to scripture in the spirit that is the truth. Ignatius of Antioch and his writings can be questioned about the authenticity of such letters and the content also, they are not scripture,

Ignatius of Antioch in an attempt to resist other doctrine and men coming into the church set himself up as the sole "Bishop" over all. This is not right and draws away disciples after him. All believers have freedom in Christ to minister, speak and use their gifts. But if one man exalts himself or his role over others this can cause problems and quench the spirit in other believers, Oy doesn't matter how good or not he may be or his character, the dominating over all is not allowed in scripture. i can bring many verses about this. But this kind of thing set the course for later Lords over the flock as i see from scripture.

But if he said things like this,

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

We can question this according to scripture and disagree that the word called "Eucharist ; is literally Jesus Christ physical body. Believers can quote Jesus when he said this is my body and the cup is his blood, but we see that Jesus often spoke in such types and shadows of the reality. He spoke in parables and figures often as well. This can easily be proven from scripture. Even other men from the past like TTertullian said of the supper,

“Then, having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, He made it His own body, by saying, ‘This is my body,’ that is, the figure of my body. A figure, however, there could not have been, unless there was first an actual body. An empty thing, or phantom, is incapable of a figure,” (Tertullian, Against Marcion, Book 4, Chapter 40).

About the supper, It is in remembrance of him and a shadow of the reality and the cup is a shadow of his blood shed on the cross. Without the [actuall] shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

And as far as I have studied Ignatius did not teach the Catholic view of "transubstantiation." But still I see went too far in that and the allowing men to dominate over others.

and even at the time of the early church there were errors being taught all over.

I don't need to explain scripture, it has already been explained by the Holy Spirit.

Explained to you? or do you just believe other men outside of scripture who interpret it?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Can you show me in official Church Teaching where it says that anyone dying wearing the scapular will not suffer eternal fire?

???

If Popes wear it and millions of Catholics and it says in the back that the wearer will escape the eternal flames. Doesn't that show the error. For example if a man wears a cross on his neck and he also wears a small statue of the Buddha would not the wearing of the Buddha statue fight against the cross? yes,

I don't trust in Catechism of your church or put it equal to or above scripture. According to scripture there are traditions of men that make the word of God of no effect and that can turn from the truth as the Scapular does. It is another gospel. The true gospel is this

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" ( 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)

Notice that there is nothing added to that gospel, no Lord's supper, no water baptism, no circumcision, no Mosaic law keeping, no Scapulars, No Mary intercession, no rituals, or traditions of man for salvation, no works of the flesh for salvation etc etc.

And we hear Popes say about the Scapular, (not that we are concerned about what they say except to show the error here)

Pope Leo XI (d. 1605) wore a brown scapular and while he was being vested in his papal robes, following the conclave that elected him, his scapular was accidentaly removed and he said: "Leave me Mary lest Mary should leave me".

Pope Benedict XV (d.1922): "Let all of you have a common language and a common armour: the language, the sentences of the Gospel; the armour, the Scapular of the Virgin of Carmel, which you all ought to wear and which enjoys the singular privilege of protection even after death".

Pope Benedict XV (d.1922): "Let all of you have a common language and a common armour: the language, the sentences of the Gospel; the armour, the Scapular of the Virgin of Carmel, which you all ought to wear and which enjoys the singular privilege of protection even after death".

Pope Puis XII (d.1958): "There is no one who is not aware how greatly a love for the Blessed Virgin Mother of God contributes to the enlivening of the Catholic faith ... In the first rank of the most favored of these devotions that of the Holy Carmelite Scapular must be placed".

St. John Paul II (d.2005): "There are two truths which the sign of the Scapular brings out: on the one hand, there is the continuous protection of the Blessed Virgin, not only along the pathways of this life, but also at the moment of passing into the fullness of eternal glory;

 

[LoveofTruth]

It doesn't add to anything. Imagine the Bible written in that format.

Some bibles highlight in red Jesus words, I find that helpful

 

[concretecamper]

???

If Popes wear it and millions of Catholics and it says in the back that the wearer will escape the eternal flames. Doesn't that show the error. For example if a man wears a cross on his neck and he also wears a small statue of the Buddha would not the wearing of the Buddha statue fight against the cross? yes,

I don't trust in Catechism of your church or put it equal to or above scripture. According to scripture there are traditions of men that make the word of God of no effect and that can turn from the truth as the Scapular does. It is another gospel. The true gospel is this

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" ( 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)

Notice that there is nothing added to that gospel, no Lord's supper, no water baptism, no circumcision, no Mosaic law keeping, no Scapulars, No Mary intercession, no rituals, or traditions of man for salvation, no works of the flesh for salvation etc etc.

And we hear Popes say about the Scapular, (not that we are concerned about what they say except to show the error here)

Pope Leo XI (d. 1605) wore a brown scapular and while he was being vested in his papal robes, following the conclave that elected him, his scapular was accidentaly removed and he said: "Leave me Mary lest Mary should leave me".

Pope Benedict XV (d.1922): "Let all of you have a common language and a common armour: the language, the sentences of the Gospel; the armour, the Scapular of the Virgin of Carmel, which you all ought to wear and which enjoys the singular privilege of protection even after death".

Pope Benedict XV (d.1922): "Let all of you have a common language and a common armour: the language, the sentences of the Gospel; the armour, the Scapular of the Virgin of Carmel, which you all ought to wear and which enjoys the singular privilege of protection even after death".

Pope Puis XII (d.1958): "There is no one who is not aware how greatly a love for the Blessed Virgin Mother of God contributes to the enlivening of the Catholic faith ... In the first rank of the most favored of these devotions that of the Holy Carmelite Scapular must be placed".

St. John Paul II (d.2005): "There are two truths which the sign of the Scapular brings out: on the one hand, there is the continuous protection of the Blessed Virgin, not only along the pathways of this life, but also at the moment of passing into the fullness of eternal glory;

Thank you for not providing Church teaching that those who wear the scapular will not suffer eternal fire.

Your inability to distinguish between Church Teaching and pious practices should highlight to everyone your ability to interpret Scripture is lacking.

 

[concretecamper]

Explained to you? or do you just believe other men outside of scripture who interpret it?

Explain to the Church. Jesus promised the Church that the Holy Spirit will guide it. I believe Jesus, not you. Sorry if that sound abrupt, Im sure you mean well, but I just don't believe your novel interpretations.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yep, that is why I believe that water Baptism is essential for salvation, and that reception of the Eucharist is required. My beliefs are consistent with the Scriptures, the teachings of the early Church, the teaching of the Church for close to 2,000 years.

People come up with strange alternate meaning to scripture that doesn't make sense. So I will call it out.

This is how men are saved, notice that no water baptism for salvation or the Lord 's supper are added to the gospel. if we add to the gospel we make another gospel, (read Galatians 1 for that concern).

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:" ( 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)

Water baptism does not save nor the Lord's supper. According to scripture.The saving baptism is into Christ by the Spirit where we are immersed into Him and where we put on Christ ( not water).

“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” ( 1 Corinthians 12;13 KJV)

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

“For John truly baptized with water;[past tense] but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.” ( Acts 1:5 KJV)

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?” ( Romans 6:3 KJV) Notice into Jesus Christ, not into water.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Thank you for not providing Church teaching that those who wear the scapular will not suffer eternal fire.

Your inability to distinguish between Church Teaching and pious practices should highlight to everyone your ability to interpret Scripture is lacking.

No, according to your church, tradition and official teaching are both connected. In fact, when I have used scripture to correct some they will put tradition on an equal footing or even above in some case.

If Popes (whoever they are makes no difference to me God accepts no mans person), wear these and promote them and teach of them, then that is enough to warn others about what is said.

Im sure there are many superstitions and traditions that many follow to their peril that are not in "official" church teaching", but that they believe do not go against it. Well, scripture shows the one saving gospel and wearing a cloth that says you will escape the eternal flames is a lie and false according to scripture. That is another gospel, and not in scripture and we are warned against such things all over in scripture.

Scripture is the official church teaching. I care nothing for popes and Catholic catechisms etc. I look unto Jesus and the revelation of the Spirit and the holy scripture. If any man speaks according to these I will confirm what is said.

so according to your lack of understanding here and attempt to justify wearing such things, If it is not your official churches doctrine, then all should safely get rid of them, for they preach another gospel and give false hope to those who wear them. Imagine a man in a criminal group who wears this and yet is a man who cares less for the things of God, but somehow by wearing this as it says he will escape the eternal flames???

 

[LoveofTruth]

Explain to the Church. Jesus promised the Church that the Holy Spirit will guide it. I believe Jesus, not you. Sorry if that sound abrupt, Im sure you mean well, but I just don't believe your novel interpretations.

All I speak is according to holy scripture. You have not shown one sound correction to me from scripture and you ignore the scriptures I give. So you sadly have nothing to say, but your own natural opinions and wisdom of men.

sorry to sound abrupt.

“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” ( Acts 17:11 KJV)

“But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:” (Acts 24:14 KJV)

 

[concretecamper]

Im sure there are many superstitions and traditions that many follow to their peril that are not in "official" church teaching

I'm sure there are.

The important point is you served the scapular up as Church teaching, ignorant of the fact that it wasn't. The reasoning you use needs al lot of help.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I'm sure there are.

The important point is you served the scapular up as Church teaching, ignorant of the fact that it wasn't. The reasoning you use needs al lot of help.

So when Popes teach others what they see it as, that is not teaching? so we can all safely reject what they say as not in official teaching???? confusion sorry to say.

I did not say it is written in your so called "official church teaching". To me the scriptures are the "official church teaching". And it is contrary to them, as much of your official church teaching is as well. But thats a 45 hour talk.

 

[concretecamper]

All I speak is according to holy scripture. You have not shown one sound correction to me from scripture and you ignore the scriptures I give

I'm not interested in correcting you by rehashing the same old discussions that have happened on this forum billions of times.

All I am interested in doing is stating that your personal interpretation of scripture are in conflict with the Church Fathers and close to 2,000 years of Church Teaching. And also, you have no authority to pronounce your interpretations binding on anyone. Go live you life the way YOU see fit, let the rest of us follow Christ's Church.

 

[concretecamper]

So when Popes teach others what they see it as, that is not teaching> so we can all safely reject what they say as not in official teaching???? confusion sorry to say.

Just like when Pope Francis let's us know what he thinks on Environmental issues. It is not official teaching, just his opinion.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Explain to the Church. Jesus promised the Church that the Holy Spirit will guide it.

They would be guided into all truth by the Spirit, not error. So the error taught about the scapular is not taught by the Spirit and we can safely reject it and those who teach such error.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Just like when Pope Francis let's us know what he thinks on Environmental issues. It is not official teaching, just his opinion.

If what a Pope says is contrary to scripture we can reject what he teaches. Just like If a Pope says he will bless gay unions, we can safely say that that teaching is false according to scripture.

 

[concretecamper]

They would be guided into all truth by the Spirit, not error. So the error taught about the scapular is not taught by the Spirit and we can safely reject it and those who teach such error.

Already addressed

 

[concretecamper]

If what a Pope says is contrary to scripture we can reject what he teaches

You again demonstrate your lack of understanding of what you are attempting to criticize. This is getting tiring.

May I suggest you actually find out what His Church teaches before you offer criticisms?

 

[LoveofTruth]

I'm not interested in correcting you by rehashing the same old discussions that have happened on this forum billions of times.

I don't believbe you have the answers to what I say or can resist the scriptures i share. You cannot hide behind others who have written their understandings.

All I am interested in doing is stating that your personal interpretation of scripture

I seek the revelation of all things from scripture by the Spirit. The anointing teaches me all things.

are in conflict with the Church Fathers and close to 2,000 years of Church Teaching.

Holy scripture is often in conflict with many so called "church fathers", what they wrote is not scripture.

And also, you have no authority to pronounce your interpretations binding on anyone.

All believers can speak in faith and use scripture as God works in them.

As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." (1 Peter 4:10,11 KJV).

So all believers can minister in the grace and gift given from God and they can speak and do all things through Christ not just certain men.. The authority is in Christ and his word and when we live and speak it. Authority is not in a person or a Lord over others as Jesus said,

"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:" ( matthew 20:25-27 KJV)

This also speaks agains any man exalting himself over others or those who draw away disciples after themselves and who lord over the flock as the supreme head of the church etc.

The word of God is binding on the man who hears it. His word shall not come back void but it will accomplish what it is sent for.

Go live you life the way YOU see fit,

that is a false statement and teaching and against Christ. Jesus did not say live your life the way you see fit.he said he is the way the truth and the life and all are to follow him and be led by the Spirit.

these things we are talking of are not just some entertaining game in here, a distraction from the cares of life and some hobby. These things I speak of are about the truths of God and the teaching for christian life in Christ. They are of vital importance and regarding salvation as well.

let the rest of us follow Christ's Church.

I don't believe any can follow Christ and his church if they walk contrary to the gospel and the truth of scripture in the Spirit. And again thats a 45 hour talk.