The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"

[LoveofTruth]

You again demonstrate your lack of understanding of what you are attempting to criticize. This is getting tiring.

May I suggest you actually find out what His Church teaches before you offer criticisms?

I was a Catholic for many years and God led me out.

I also have a copy of the so called "Catechism" and other things. I could quote to you many errors from it according to scripture. I have studied these things I write about here for many years in faith.

I know what you teach. But when a man teaches about a scapular and he is a Pope ( so called) over others, that influences many to the same error.

Do you believe (as many Popes do) that what the scapular says is true? Do you believe that wearing that scapular will allow you to escape the eternal flames.???

This one thing should cause millions to leave the Catholic church and seek to follow Christ according to the revelation of the Spirit and holy scripture given by the Spirit. That and any man blessing gay unions should cause millions to leave and gather with believers who are born again and follow the leading of the Spirit and holy scriptures and wait on the Lord for ministry.. It is that important..

 

[LoveofTruth]

Already addressed

you didn't say if you believe wearing that scapular will allow you to escape the eternal flames? If you do agree that it does that, then why would you need Jesus? Or the church?

do you understand this?''You don't use scripture, so much of what you say will be your natural opinion.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I'm not interested in correcting you by rehashing the same old discussions that have happened on this forum billions of times.

This is not right, why are you in this forum at all if you do not want to discuss the truth and scriptures? And what i say will be different in some areas from what others have said, or at least the way i share it.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yep, that is why I believe that water Baptism is essential for salvation

Jesus didn't say water baptism is for salvation. Of so show me the word "water" in his words for salvation.

and that is part of the problem what you believe there but...

 

[Valletta]

a;so, here is another things to consider in John 6 we read,

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him."

Notice the words, "life in him" and "hath eternal life" and "dwelleth in me, and I in him"

we see these things in scripture referring to other aspects Consider this from the same writer John,

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men...That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." ( Jophn 1:1-4. 9.1- KJV).

Here we see that the Light lighteth every man that cometh into the world. We also read that in Him was life and the life was the light of men. In him was life. So when Jesus says that those who do not believe have no life in them. This would show that they hate the light in them and turn from it, the spirit of that person had not been enlightened with the light of life. This is a possibility for all men to come unto God because the true Light lighteth every man. This was possible way before Jesus came physically to earth as we see in men like Abraham who had the seed (Christ in him Galatians 3) and others.

Eternal life is in Christ and dwells in men as 1 John speaks of. This eternal life is Christ.Christ dwells in our heart by faith, not by eating a physical piece of bread. He is in fact not far from every person in them shining His light if they would come to the light.

"That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith;..." (Ephesians 3:15 KJV)

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." ( John 3:19-21 KJV).

So coming to the light inwardly is also coming to Jesus inwardly.

"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me." ( John 15:3.4 KJV).

This was spoken before Jesus had the last supper. Also when Jesus speaks of people "dwelleth in me, and I in him" in John 6:56 KJV) he is connecting this to his inward dwelling in them and they in him. This inward life is a spiritual life.

It is not bread, but the true Body and Blood of Christ, as He tells us. Jesus Himself is our New Covenant. The first High Priest (and King) we see in Holy Scripture was Melchizedek, the king of Salem. Salem later became known as Jerusalem. Melchizedek offered mere bread and wine. Jesus offered Himself under the outward appearance of bread and wine, offered His Body and His Blood as our New Covenant. The old is fulfilled in the new.

 

[LoveofTruth]

It is not bread, but the true Body and Blood of Christ, as He tells us.

1 Corinthians 10: 16. “…The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?”

It was still bread.

And consider,

1 Corinthians 10: 17. For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.”

 

[Valletta]

1 Corinthians 10: 16. “…The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?”

It was still bread.

And consider,

1 Corinthians 10: 17. For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.”

John 6:55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

 

[LoveofTruth]

John 6:55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

John 6: 63. It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”

 

[LoveofTruth]

John 6:55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

John 6: 56. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.”

Ephesians 3: 17. That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,”

1 Corinthians 10: 1. Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2. And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3. And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4. And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”

 

[Valletta]

John 6: 56. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.”

Indeed, when we receive Jesus in the Holy Eucharist, when we eat His flesh and drink His blood (as Jesus says in John 6:56) we are united with Jesus. We cannot have a closer relationship with Jesus than that on this earth. That is why the early Christians met for the breaking of the bread, the mass, on Sundays.

Here is what Justin Martyr had to say:

And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. (150-155 A.D.)

 

[JulieB67]

, I am saying that scripture is not the first primary rule of faith

I'm sure others have already posted this but faith comes from hearing the word of God.

Romans 10:16 "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, "Lord, who hath believed our report?"

Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

The scriptures are our starting point-that's where our faith comes from.

Just by reading the scriptures doesn’t mean a person hears God’s word or have the Spirit revealing spiritual things to them.

Some can read or hear the Word of God and believe and some obviously won't. But it's still the starting point. And it's God that gives the increase afterwards concerning the individual.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Indeed, when we receive Jesus in the Holy Eucharist, when we eat His flesh and drink His blood (as Jesus says in John 6:56) we are united with Jesus. We cannot have a closer relationship with Jesus than that on this earth. That is why the early Christians met for the breaking of the bread, the mass, on Sundays.

Here is what Justin Martyr had to say:

When the church has the supper in remembrance of Jesus work on the cross it is a reminder of the saving gospel. The saving gospel is this

1 Corinthians 15: 1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”

Notice that Paul preached this , words unto them. And they revived it and how they stand and are saved .he said if they keep in MEMORY what he preached. There is no words here about preaching to eat a bread that changes literally into Christ and transubstantiated flesh or any such thing, for salvation. There is one gospel as Paul preached and they were saved by the hearing of faith not by works or the supper changing into Jesus literally. The supper can help them to remember the saving gospel but it is a remembrance as it is written. To make it a saving act of itself confounds the gospel Paul preached.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I'm sure others have already posted this but faith comes from hearing the word of God.

Romans 10:16 "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, "Lord, who hath believed our report?"

Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

The scriptures are our starting point-that's where our faith comes from.

Some can read or hear the Word of God and believe and some obviously won't. But it's still the starting point. And it's God that gives the increase afterwards concerning the individual.

No, the starting point is God working in men by the true Light that lighteth every man (John 1:9) and this is the seed down in the heart of men which is the word of God. Abraham had this seed (christ) in him and he had no scriptures.

You must rethink and understand your entire understanding . Read Hebrews 11 also and see how many of them had saving faith and no scripture at that time.

Consider this,

Galatians 3: 16, 29 “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ…29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

God is not far from every man

Acts 17: 26. And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27. That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28. For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.@

Acts 10: 34. Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35. But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”

Romans 2: 14. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”

 

[LoveofTruth]

I'm sure others have already posted this but faith comes from hearing the word of God.

Romans 10:16 "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, "Lord, who hath believed our report?"

Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

The scriptures are our starting point-that's where our faith comes from.

Some can read or hear the Word of God and believe and some obviously won't. But it's still the starting point. And it's God that gives the increase afterwards concerning the individual.

That word (seed) was already down in mens hearts and near them before the commandment was given as Paul days and he quotes Deuteronomy 30 in parts in Romans 10.

I have spoken much on this in previous post if you check back. The word of Christ was not hidden from them but close to them in their heart and they could hear Gods voice all along .

Romans 1: 19. KJV “Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.”

 

[LoveofTruth]

Indeed, when we receive Jesus in the Holy Eucharist, when we eat His flesh and drink His blood (as Jesus says in John 6:56) we are united with Jesus. We cannot have a closer relationship with Jesus than that on this earth. That is why the early Christians met for the breaking of the bread, the mass, on Sundays.

Here is what Justin Martyr had to say:

We don’t put men above that which is written. And Justin Martyr did not write scripture.

 

[JulieB67]

Read Hebrews 11 also and see how many of them had saving faith and no scripture at that time.

Many of them actually walked with God.

Today in this day and age, we have the word of God through scriptures and the Holy Spirit opens up one's mind to these scriptures.

Romans 10:14 "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"

It was through the prophets disciples/apostles that spread the Word (old and new) that we build our foundation on.

Romans 10:15 "And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

Romans 10:16 "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, "Lord, who hath believed our report?"

Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

Romans 10:18 "But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, "their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world."


I will say this in agreeance with you that I believe God works in the hearts of men, especially his chosen vessels. But to me, God and his Word are the same. And that doesn't take away from Romans 10:17.

Or these as others have posted -

II Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the world of truth."

II Timothy 3:15 "And that from a child thou hast know the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

II Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

And you yourself are using scripture and it's by the scriptures that we are to search out what is true or not true according to what we are taught/hear, etc.

If you didn't have the scriptures you wouldn't even have anything to base your argument on. But again I do also agree that the Holy Spirit does work in the hearts of men but in this day and age that usually comes from at least first hearing the Word of God. That's how we know him, his plan, build our faith and so on.

 

[Valletta]

We don’t put men above that which is written. And Justin Martyr did not write scripture.

Nor do Catholics, and I hope none of my fellow Christians do. Such historical quotations show what the early Christians believed, those who were not far removed from the Apostles. During the reformation the three reformers all came up with their own ideas on the Holy Eucharist, all three differed, and I don't know how many offshoot beliefs there are today.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Many of them actually walked with God.

Today in this day and age, we have the word of God through scriptures and the Holy Spirit opens up one's mind to these scriptures.

Romans 10:14 "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"

It was through the prophets disciples/apostles that spread the Word (old and new) that we build our foundation on.

Romans 10:15 "And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

Romans 10:16 "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, "Lord, who hath believed our report?"

Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

Romans 10:18 "But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, "their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world."


I will say this in agreeance with you that I believe God works in the hearts of men, especially his chosen vessels. But to me, God and his Word are the same. And that doesn't take away from Romans 10:17.

Or these as others have posted -

II Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the world of truth."

II Timothy 3:15 "And that from a child thou hast know the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

II Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

And you yourself are using scripture and it's by the scriptures that we are to search out what is true or not true according to what we are taught/hear, etc.

If you didn't have the scriptures you wouldn't even have anything to base your argument on. But again I do also agree that the Holy Spirit does work in the hearts of men but in this day and age that usually comes from at least first hearing the Word of God. That's how we know him, his plan, build our faith and so on.

I am by no means saying we don’t need the scriptures, we do, they are very profitable and needed. But I have shown clearly that men can be saved and have been without the scriptures. They had the word of God (the seed) sown in their heart this seed is Christ. This is a mystery in scripture but still always near all.

In Romans 10 we see Paul talking about God as the divine preacher who has always been there he preaches in the hearts of all by his word which is nigh (close) to all. He does confirm that this word has been preached by men who had this word of God come to them and preach but he ask. How can they hear without a preacher? Notice the question mark it is not a !

He then ask have they not heard? Again a question. And he answers, yes, and quotes Psalm 19. Showing that the word it sound of the word has gone out through all all the world. Christ is the true Light that lighteth every man John 1:9.

I speak at length about this in this thread way back if you want to check.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I am by no means saying we don’t need the scriptures we do they are very profitable and needed. But I have shown clearly that men can be saved and have been without the scriptures. They had the word of God (the seed) down in their heart this seed is Christ. This is a mystery in scripture but still always near all.

In Romans 10 we see Paul talking about God as the divine preacher who has always been there he preaches in the hearts of all by his word which is nigh (close) to all. He does confirm that this word has been preached by men who had this word of Gid come to them and preach but he ask. How can they hear without a preacher? Notice the question mark it is not a !

He then ask havevthey notbheard? Again a question. And he answers, yes, abd quotes Psalm 19. Showing that the word it sound of the word has gone out through all all the world. Christ is the true Light that lighteth every man John 1:9.

I speak at length about this in this thread way back if you want to check.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Many of them actually walked with God.

All of Hebrew 11 walked and heard God and had faith .Faith is the substance of things hoped for, Christ in you is the hope. Abraham had Christ the seed in him.

Today in this day and age, we have the word of God through scriptures and the Holy Spirit opens up one's mind to these scriptures.

We always, in all times have the seed (word) sown in our hearts and Christ the true Light still works in all men all over the world that they might seek him and know him. All this grace given to all is only through the work of Jesus Christ in time. And his death burial and resurrection in time for us. But all all over the world can seek him and feel after him though he be not far from everyone of us. As scripture shows.

Romans 10:14 "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"

Notice the ? He is asking a question. He answers it in vs 18

It was through the prophets disciples/apostles that spread the Word (old and new) that we build our foundation on.

Abraham and others before the law before any scriptures or prophets even had Christ working in them the seed the word of God that gives life.

Romans 10:15 "And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

And how can any preach unless they also have God working in them by His word. Yes, we do not deny any scriptures and they are the word spoken by these prophets and preachers that we have written down. But no man knows the things of God but by the Spirit and who He reveals them to.

Romans 10:16 "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, "Lord, who hath believed our report?"

Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

Today if any hear his voice harden not their hearts . The word/voice is close to all in thier hearts. The seed is sown in the heart. The true Light lighteth every man . And even when men hear preaching of the word and the scriptures it is by manifestation of the truth in their hearts by God that they can know anything.

Jesus said to the religious men who heard scripture outwardly and him preach that they could not hear his word and they did not have his word abiding in them

Romans 10:18 "But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, "their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world."

Now he quotes Psalm 19, do you wonder why he quotes this here? And why he quoted Deuteronomy 30? It is a wonderful truth and shows the work of God everywhere and in mens hearts God did not leave himself without witness but filled our hearts

I will say this in agreeance with you that I believe God works in the hearts of men, especially his chosen vessels. But to me, God and his Word are the same. And that doesn't take away from Romans 10:17.

Yes he has worked in all hearts there is no excuse in the end. But not all receive him in their hearts. Many harden their hearts and are blind in their heart and their hearts are darkened and the light is only reproving them if they come to it.

Or these as others have posted -

II Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the world of truth."

II Timothy 3:15 "And that from a child thou hast know the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

II Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

And you yourself are using scripture and it's by the scriptures that we are to search out what is true or not true according to what we are taught/hear, etc.

Yes, I never deny scripture and the use of it. But I am showing that the inward life in Christ is how we know scripture or anything of God

If you didn't have the scriptures you wouldn't even have anything to base your argument on.

Abraham had much without scripture and others too.

But again I do also agree that the Holy Spirit does work in the hearts of men but in this day and age that usually comes from at least first hearing the Word of God. That's how we know him, his plan, build our faith and so on.

Hearing the word is inward by the Father revealing teaching and leading or drawing us to Him. Then the Father will draw us to Christ.