The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"

[BobRyan]

God as one being, still as the heavenly Father, Logos the Word with God, and the Spirit of God, in full unity,

Certainly we cannot find it too surprising that "one single being is at one with Himself".

I think we can all agree that this part is not too surprising.

What would be very "very" surprising is to find that a single being is so adamant that people know that he is "at one with himself" as if there were such a high risk that maybe a single being is not really "at one with himself".

Even more surprising than that would be to argue that humans need to all be "one being" as God is "one being".

In John 17 "That they may be ONE as WE are ONE" - is Jesus saying that humans can only be "ONE" by all becoming "ONE being"?? No that is not at all what He is saying.

Why? Because God is "One God" Deut 6:4 in THREE persons Matt 28:19.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, you ask different things that would need to be addressed separately. There is what is in the Bible, it pretty much is what I just posted previously in this thread. Other than referring to passages I would show there isn't much more about it from the Bible. The rest is asking about my point of view, while I might answer that it will be distinct from what I can say from passages. I don't try to go very far from what is shown in the Bible for such things

Agreed. That is the right approach.

I don't really believe the Father generates or generated the Son, that is more from creeds than Bible passages. But the incarnation came from God. .

True - God caused the incarnation. We see the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit all in action in that case.

 

[FredVB]

Bob, you ask different things that would need to be addressed separately. There is what is in the Bible, it pretty much is what I just posted previously in this thread. Other than referring to passages I would show there isn't much more about it from the Bible. The rest is asking about my point of view, while I might answer that it will be distinct from what I can say from passages. I don't try to go very far from what is shown in the Bible for such things, as what to know about God, while I believe God also impresses things on those of us who are believers and seeking things out.

God is just one being. Isaiah 43:10-11,
“You are my witnesses,” says Yahweh,
“With my servant whom I have chosen;
that you may know and believe me,
and understand that I am he.
Before me there was no God formed,
neither will there be after me.
I myself am Yahweh.
Besides me, there is no savior."

What you asked about in Matthew 28 is what is shown for the formula for water baptism of confessing believers. The only clue that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one being according to what should be said is that the baptism is in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Just the one name, and the name is not "The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." The revealed name, shown the most in the Bible as originally written, designated that it is Yahweh.

The Bible shows, in certain places, the heavenly Father is Yahweh, Christ the Son is Yahweh, come in the incarnation, and the Spirit of God is Yahweh. As Yahweh is only one being and there is no other, the heavenly Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are just the one being, Yahweh, in their unity. They are never separate in their unity.

I don't really believe the Father generates or generated the Son, that is more from creeds than Bible passages. But the incarnation came from God. Logos the Word, who came in the incarnation, already existed through eternity in unity as one being with the heavenly Father and the Spirit of God. That is the eternal nature of God, plurality in absolute unity. I believe mathematics was eternal in the knowledge of God, and it proceeds from this.

Each is always in communication with the others, in one being. Jesus the incarnation of Logos, with God and being God, prayed to the heavenly Father, not to himself, Jesus. They are one in many senses. That we should be one is not in all those senses. But it is about unity. They each have a will. But the will of each agrees with the will of each other. Jesus as a man in the incarnation still had a struggle with that, but never violated the agreement which continued.

God as one being, still as the heavenly Father, Logos the Word with God, and the Spirit of God, in full unity, is Love, which is only possible through eternity independently of when God produced creation with there being that unity of the heavenly Father, Logos, and the Spirit of God together. God models that love perfectly, as when God made this world, and everything was what God called very good, it was what would be perfect for us, and all life in it. This of God's perfect will is modeled for us, God's love is modeled in that.

Certainly we cannot find it too surprising that "one single being is at one with Himself".

I think we can all agree that this part is not too surprising.

What would be very "very" surprising is to find that a single being is so adamant that people know that he is "at one with himself" as if there were such a high risk that maybe a single being is not really "at one with himself".

Even more surprising than that would be to argue that humans need to all be "one being" as God is "one being".

In John 17 "That they may be ONE as WE are ONE" - is Jesus saying that humans can only be "ONE" by all becoming "ONE being"?? No that is not at all what He is saying.

Why? Because God is "One God" Deut 6:4 in THREE persons Matt 28:19.

True - God caused the incarnation. We see the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit all in action in that case.

A single being is always at one with himself, herself, or itself. That would not need to be pointed out. But for those who have only understood God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost as separate beings, this is needed for pointing out the additional strong evidence that they are together, as they always are, one single being.

It is important that people do not believe there are more Gods than one. That one revealing one name is important for that too. Passages are very clear there are no Gods but the One.

That it was desirable that we believers be at one with each other, which actually we should work at a lot better, as Jesus is one with the heavenly Father is not meaning for us to be one in all the senses there are of being one. Clearly it should be about unity actually possible for us. Unity of Jesus Christ as incarnation of Logos who is with God and is God with the heavenly Father is necessarily further unity that is needed, that they are really one God, while there is no other God.

 

[FredVB]

God as one being, still as the heavenly Father, Logos the Word with God, and the Spirit of God, in full unity, is Love, which is only possible through eternity independently of when God produced creation with there being that unity of the heavenly Father, Logos, and the Spirit of God together. God models that love perfectly, as when God made this world, and everything was what God called very good, it was what would be perfect for us, and all life in it. This of God's perfect will is modeled for us, God's love is modeled in that.

Genesis 1 is relevant to this, while a lot in the rest of the Bible supports that. God being perfect, and being Love eternally with the plurality in perfect complete unity as One, made creation with this world according to that perfection, calling it then, the only time God is shown saying this of anything, 'Very Good', without hurting, suffering, or death, for any, according to what the Bible shows. This contradicts the theories that include that there was long ages with hurting, suffering, and death, for any. Those theories including those things are then wrong. And God who is eternally Love will restore things with a new world being made, for the redeemed of humanity and for creation which groans for this. It is shown with visions. God's perfect will is not with design for us to include hurting, suffering, and death for any. God is not willing that any would perish, but wants all people to come to repentance, for their salvation with faith through the atonement, which Christ came to this world for. The redeemed can then grow spiritually, they might actually grow toward that perfect will of God, beyond concessions and what is permitted, they then need to not resist seeing where that is called for.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Good day,

Apostolic Succession historically understood... not some name it claim it myth.

The Didache
Just as the Bible says that teaching sound doctrine is a requirement for being a bishop (Titus 1:9), The Didache explains that teachers are to be followed only as far as they're faithful to sound doctrine. They aren't to be followed just because they hold a church office:

"My child, remember night and day him who speaks the word of God to you, and honor him as you do the Lord. For wherever the lordly rule is uttered, there is the Lord....Whosoever, therefore, comes and teaches you all these things that have been said before, receive him. But if the teacher himself turns and teaches another doctrine to the destruction of this, hear him not. But if he teaches so as to increase righteousness and the knowledge of the Lord, receive him as the Lord....Appoint, therefore, for yourselves, bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men meek, and not lovers of money, and truthful and proved; for they also render to you the service of prophets and teachers." (4, 11, 15)

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:

"'One is constituted a member of the episcopal body in virtue of the sacramental consecration and by the hierarchical communion with the head and members of the college.' The character and collegial nature of the episcopal order are evidenced among other ways by the Church's ancient practice which calls for several bishops to participate in the consecration of a new bishop. In our day, the lawful ordination of a bishop requires a special intervention of the Bishop of Rome, because he is the supreme visible bond of the communion of the particular Churches in the one Church and the guarantor of their freedom....Since the sacrament of Holy Orders is the sacrament of the apostolic ministry, it is for the bishops as the successors of the apostles to hand on the 'gift of the Spirit,' the 'apostolic line.' Validly ordained bishops, i.e., those who are in the line of apostolic succession, validly confer the three degrees of the sacrament of Holy Orders." (1559, 1576)

The Council of Trent condemns those who say that church leaders can be appointed by laymen:

"Furthermore, the sacred and holy Synod teaches, that, in the ordination of bishops, priests, and of the other orders, neither the consent, nor vocation, nor authority, whether of the people, or of any civil power or magistrate whatsoever, is required in such wise as that, without this, the ordination is invalid: yea rather doth It decree, that all those who, being only called and instituted by the people, or by the civil power and magistrate, ascend to the exercise of these ministrations, and those who of their own rashness assume them to themselves, are not ministers of the church, but are to be looked upon as thieves and robbers, who have not entered by the door." (session 23, chapter 4, "On the Ecclesiastical Hierarchy, and on Ordination")

In Him,

Bill

No the calling to be an overseer or any gift given to the body does not come from man or by man but by God as the spirit led men to write down for us.

Just a small sample here;

Galatians 1: 1. Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead”

Acts 20: 28. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.”

But sadly, many will just ignore scripture like this for man made traditions that make the word of Gid of no effect.

The Overseers can bed recognized,(ordained) in that call by the body and often those in who God shows such recognition.. The dhole body will see thier walk and words and be known.Paul even told others to know those who labour among them in such functions.

But all the body has an office every believer .The word “office” refers to function.

 

[LoveofTruth]

A single being is always at one with himself, herself, or itself. That would not need to be pointed out. But for those who have only understood God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost as separate beings, this is needed for pointing out the additional strong evidence that they are together, as they always are, one single being.

It is important that people do not believe there are more Gods than one. That one revealing one name is important for that too. Passages are very clear there are no Gods but the One.

That it was desirable that we believers be at one with each other, which actually we should work at a lot better, as Jesus is one with the heavenly Father is not meaning for us to be one in all the senses there are of being one. Clearly it should be about unity actually possible for us. Unity of Jesus Christ as incarnation of Logos who is with God and is God with the heavenly Father is necessarily further unity that is needed, that they are really one God, while there is no other God.

Yes , there is one God in three persons who communicate to eachother as scripture shows .these three are one

Isaiah 48: 15. I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. 16. Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17. Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.”

Notice that the Lotd God is speaking of the Lord God and Hos Spirit sending him

Notice also the “I”, even “I”, yeah “I” three

 

[LoveofTruth]

Could you please show us the book, chapter, and verse were the bible states this?

And please, before you post that 2 Tim. 16-17 claiming Scripture is sufficient as a rule of faith, under close examination of these verses in context shows that they don't claim that at all; they only claims Scripture is “profitable” (Greek: ophelimos), that is, helpful. Notice that the passage nowhere even hints that Scripture is “sufficient”—which is, unfortunately, exactly what Protestants think the passage means.

Here’s the one verse of many that say this

Isaiah 8: 20. To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”

The Light of Christ working in men also gave the scriptures and the two agree together in Christ

 

[LoveofTruth]

I'll take the old proven Apostolic Succession instead of the flavor of the week's protestant dogma.

No “apostolic succession”, according to scripture as we can see here, just a few verses of many,

Galatians 1: 1. Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead.”

God gives gifts, not men. No man can study thier way to a gift in a thing called “Bible school” or have another give them gifts .God does this as He wills.

Ephesians 4: 11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;”

 

[LoveofTruth]

People who claim to be led by the Spirit disagree on siginficant matters of the faith all day long with others making the same claim.

Yes that’s true. But we still must be led of the Spirit and be taught by the Spirit. We are also exhorted in scripture (which is given by the Spirit), to prove all things and to examine things and judge all things in the spirit. So, Even though many may agree on certain truths, such as the gospel message, others will add to that gospel many things, or teach a very different gospel. In the sane gathering you might have sone teaching another gospel. We see this addressed in sone of the letters to the churches. Paul exposes the world gospel under the law in Galatians for example and the reasoning he uses is by the Spirit guiding him. The truths he reveals by the Spirit, bear witness with believers spirit.

There are many reasons why sone can’t agree on a foundational thing such as “what is the gospel” (1 Corinthians 15:1-5), sone men are listening to doctrines of devils for various reasons, and walk in the flesh, others are in man made traditions, deceived by false teachers taking advantage of the weak in faith, men bound under the law and works of the flesh who cannot understand the freedom in Christ, and who may be in pride and boasting unwilling to repent or humble themselves . There are many reasons and all can be exposed in the spiritual walk of the body as they listen and seek to be led by God.

We must trust that God will help those who truly and honesty ask seek and knock.

 

[fhansen]

We must trust that God will help those who truly and honesty ask seek and knock.

I agree. I was surprised when I found myself led back to the RCC. Long journey, long story.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I agree. I was surprised when I found myself led back to the RCC. Long journey, long story.

Hello and God bless,

I was led by God put of the Roman Catholic Church many years ago, about 40 years or so ago and never gone back. There were so many reasons and doctrines that were not as God showed me and were contrary to the Spirits witness in scripture also.

A simple one was the host, the mass, sacraments, or Mary issues or scapulars.

Consider that many Popes and many possibly millions of Roman Catholics west a thing called a “Scapular” around their neck that says on the back of it that;

“Whosoever dies wearing this scapular shall not suffer eternal fire”

That’s another gospel and spiritual very troubling. The true saving gospel is in 1 Corinthians 15:1-5. We must not add to the gospel or change it or the warnings of Galatians 1 come into play.

If all a person had to do to escape the eternal flames was to wear that scapular around thier neck then Christ died in vain for them and they trust another gospel:

I would like to hear your reasons for going back to the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Valletta]

Hello and God bless,

I was led by God put of the Roman Catholic Church many years ago, about 40 years or so ago and never gone back. There were so many reasons and doctrines that were not as God showed me and were contrary to the Spirits witness in scripture also.

A simple one was the host, the mass, sacraments, or Mary issues or scapulars.

Consider that many Popes and many possibly millions of Roman Catholics west a thing called a “Scapular” around their neck that says on the back of it that;

“Whosoever dies wearing this scapular shall not suffer eternal fire”

That’s another gospel and spiritual very troubling. The true saving gospel is in 1 Corinthians 15:1-5. We must not add to the gospel or change it or the warnings of Galatians 1 come into play.

If all a person had to do to escape the eternal flames was to wear that scapular around thier neck then Christ died in vain for them and they trust another gospel:

I would like to hear your reasons for going back to the Roman Catholic Church.

I would like to hear too. In the meanwhile I'll give you an extremely condensed response. The mass, for example, is referred to as the "breaking of the bread" in the Bible. Catholics chose the day Sunday to meet because Jesus was resurrected on Sunday. Jesus commanded us to "do this," meaning the breaking and blessing of the bread and the consecration. As to the scapular, it comes from what Catholics term "private revelation." One of the most famous is the miracle of the sun at Fatima and the subsequent miracles. No Catholic is required to believe in such, you may be wise to, but you are not required to do so. At Fatima Our Lady mentioned one of her titles as Our Lady of Carmel, and the scapular came from a result of that apparition. It is not a magic trinket, one must follow Jesus, fully accepting Him as our Lord and Savior, it is a sign of one's devotion to Him. A number of Catholic religious orders wear particular clothing part of which is considered a scapular.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I would like to hear too. In the meanwhile I'll give you an extremely condensed response. The mass, for example, is referred to as the "breaking of the bread" in the Bible. Catholics chose the day Sunday to meet because Jesus was resurrected on Sunday. Jesus commanded us to "do this," meaning the breaking and blessing of the bread and the consecration. As to the scapular, it comes from what Catholics term "private revelation." One of the most famous is the miracle of the sun at Fatima and the subsequent miracles. No Catholic is required to believe in such, you may be wise to, but you are not required to do so. At Fatima Our Lady mentioned one of her titles as Our Lady of Carmel, and the scapular came from a result of that apparition. It is not a magic trinket, one must follow Jesus, fully accepting Him as our Lord and Savior, it is a sign of one's devotion to Him. A number of Catholic religious orders wear particular clothing part of which is considered a scapular.

Hello again,

You must be able to see that to wear such a scapular and to have its at this on the back

““Whosoever dies wearing this scapular shall not suffer eternal fire”

To say this, Is to preach another gospel. No person escapes the eternal fire unless they are saved by the wirk of Jesus Christ for their sin. And by believing the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-5) and by continuing in that faith.

We read the warning

Galatians 1: 6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”

 

[LoveofTruth]

No, Paul does not connect Christ to Deut 30. Only you do that. And I have already explained your error in doing so.



Your understanding of the parable of the sower is perverse. Is there a single commentator who says that the seed sown is Christ, rather than God's word? No, of course not. Do I really need to quote another 20 commentaries? The confused disciples asked Jesus to explain the parable, and He did so:

"Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God. Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart," (Luke 8:11)​

If the seed was Jesus Himself he would have plainly said so in his explanation. He wouldn't explain his parable with another parable!

Quite clearly you are completely wrong yet again.




Again you are making an arbitrary and unwarranted assumption the 'word of God' in 1 Peter 1:23 is Christ. There is not the slightest hint of that in the text. Again is there a single commentator who shares your view? The word of God here is what it says it is - God's word. It is "the living and enduring word of God", as echoed in Heb 4:12 "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword". (Please don't tell me you think Heb 4 is referring to Christ as well). All commentators agree that God's word, scripture, is the imperishable seed here. Do I have to quote another 20 commentaries to explain it to you?

Yes, Paul (by the Spirit), did connect Christ to the verses he quoted in Deuteronomy 30, as we read clearly,

Romans 10: 6. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above 7. Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8. But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;”

 

[LoveofTruth]

Colossians 1: 23. If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;”

 

[Fidelibus]

Here’s the one verse of many that say this

Isaiah 8: 20. To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”

I do not see where in this passage you quoted where it says that Scripture alone is sufficient as a sole rule of faith, or that the rule of faith is based on scripture alone.

The Light of Christ working in men also gave the scriptures and the two agree together in Christhe rule of faith is based on scripture.

Well, the splintering of the many thousands of Protestant, non-denominational, independent, and home churches and sects, all teaching/preaching from the same bible, proves your interpretation of this passage to be in error.

Also, I believe to get the full context of the passage you quoted, (Isa 8:20) verses 11-23 must be included.
In doing so, I would ask. What should Isaiah and his disciples be prepared to answer to what the people will claim as their rights and what will be the outcome?

Have a Blessed Day......... All Saints Day!

 

[Valletta]

Hello again,

You must be able to see that to wear such a scapular and to have its at this on the back

““Whosoever dies wearing this scapular shall not suffer eternal fire”

To say this, Is to preach another gospel. No person escapes the eternal fire unless they are saved by the wirk of Jesus Christ for their sin. And by believing the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-5) and by continuing in that faith.

We read the warning

Galatians 1: 6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”

Because it's just something you were unaware of does not mean it is preaching "another Gospel." God saves us and continues to save us when we sin, often through ways we do not expect. Catholics use the same 73 books of the Bible that the Church established in the late 300s, I don't go around saying Protestants are "accursed" and preach another Gospel because they dropped seven books over a thousand years later. It's a difference, we disagree, we are Christians and we can only ask the Holy Spirit for discernment and try our best.

 

[fhansen]

Consider that many Popes and many possibly millions of Roman Catholics west a thing called a “Scapular” around their neck that says on the back of it that;

“Whosoever dies wearing this scapular shall not suffer eternal fire”

First of all, no Catholic theology, teachings, catechisms, conciliar decrees, dogmatic proclamations, priestly sermons, et al will ever claim that the wearing of some trinket will guarantee one eternal life, no more than the removal of a little piece of flesh from the male body will make one holy. Jesus may as well have said, "Forget about everything else I told you, just wear this scapular and you'll be saved."

The wearing of certain vestments, usually of religious orders, had to with associating them with devoting oneself to a life of piety, of dedicating oneself to God and doing His will, dating back many, many centuries. This is the basis of the scapular. Where it may have devolved for some into a cultural superstition, IDK; some fools may well buy into such things.

 

[LoveofTruth]

First of all, no Catholic theology, teachings, catechisms, conciliar decrees, dogmatic proclamations, priestly sermons, et al will ever claim that the wearing of some trinket will guarantee one eternal life, no more than the removal of a little piece of flesh from the male body will make one holy. Jesus may as well have said, "Forget about everything else I told you, just wear this scapular and you'll be saved."

The wearing of certain vestments, usually of religious orders, had to with associating them with devoting oneself to a life of piety, of dedicating oneself to God and doing His will, dating back many, many centuries. This is the basis of the scapular. Where it may have devolved for some into a cultural superstition, IDK; some fools may well buy into such things.

So, we can admit that the words on the back of such a thing called a “scapular” are extremely false and a lie and another gospel? And that wearing such a thing is to deny the finished work of Christ and to proclaim to the world that Christ died ion vain if you wear it at all? And that the lie that is said on the back of it about escaping eternal flames by wearing it(which many popes and millions of Catholics do) is totally false and another gospel and should be stopped immediately and repented of and millions of Catholics should be warned? And that wearing such a thing with the inscription on it is dangerous spiritually for all?

That’s a start if you agree here.That is just the start of the many things to be exposed.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I do not see where in this passage you quoted where it says that Scripture alone is sufficient as a sole rule of faith, or that the rule of faith is based on scripture alone.



Well, the splintering of the many thousands of Protestant, non-denominational, independent, and home churches and sects, all teaching/preaching from the same bible, proves your interpretation of this passage to be in error.

Also, I believe to get the full context of the passage you quoted, (Isa 8:20) verses 11-23 must be included.
In doing so, I would ask. What should Isaiah and his disciples be prepared to answer to what the people will claim as their rights and what will be the outcome?

Have a Blessed Day......... All Saints Day!

Hello,

I never said scripture alone is the sole rule of faith. The verse I showed shows that if men walk in the light that is in them from God, that light will agree with God’s word and bear witness if it is God’s word is spoken or written .

This also answers the objections of sone that there is no light in us.